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They could disembark and shoot. However not only does this lower their effectiveness, it's also putting an expensive squad with 6+ saves on the board for a turn, and basically saying 'Yeah, I only wanted to use these guys once.'

It's not that hard to shelter a squad next to a battlewagon, especially if it's front end is touching a wrecked vehicle.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Can we not YMDC the first rule of Dakka

No, no, no, no. That is a stupid idea. You're stupid. And you come from Stupidville. Rule #1 is very clear so why the feth do you need to debate it. Read more, post less. Sheesh, some posters - their parents seem to be to closely related.





{tongue firmly in cheek MDC, honest!)

ShumaGorath wrote:

They could disembark and shoot. However not only does this lower their effectiveness, it's also putting an expensive squad with 6+ saves on the board for a turn, and basically saying 'Yeah, I only wanted to use these guys once.'

It's not that hard to shelter a squad next to a battlewagon, especially if it's front end is touching a wrecked vehicle.

Yes, I suppose you've never heard of a whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, Hellhound, marker lights, etc either.

Have you ever tried to deploy 15 Orks within 2" of the hull of the BW, maintaining coherency while staying at least 1" from enemy models? I have, you end up making a line down the side and around the back. So not only do you make your burna's vulnerable to fire, less than half of them are going to get templates off, usually significantly less.

At this point you seem to be arguing just to argue about something you find scary or don't like. How about play a couple games against it before putting your end of the world sign back on.

As an ork player and proud owner of 5 battlewagons and 5 deathrolla upgrade sprues, I think I'm gonna be verklempth. This is beautifull.....soooo beautifull.

Seriously though, is anyone really that surprised here? They released an upgrade sprue last year, and they are releasing a bunch of ork stuff next month. You all should have seen this coming. They are probably going to sell out, of upgrade sprues now. LOL


GG

Kroot Loops wrote:
Yes, I suppose you've never heard of a whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, Hellhound, marker lights, etc either.

This is where the meta-game is affected we hope. You see all the marine players and what not can only ever imagine using Land Raiders. In the same way that CSM cling to dual lash like a security blanket. Thunderfire cannon? What's that? Marker lights? That would require someone to actually play Tau.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Can we not YMDC the first rule of Dakka

No, no, no, no. That is a stupid idea. You're stupid. And you come from Stupidville. Rule #1 is very clear so why the feth do you need to debate it. Read more, post less. Sheesh, some posters - their parents seem to be to closely related.





{tongue firmly in cheek MDC, honest!)

But does my Auntie being my Dad's sister-in-law also imply my Mum is also his sister-in-law? If it does then we're all hicks....

Yes, I suppose you've never heard of a whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, Hellhound, marker lights, etc either.

If you're looking down the barrel of a thunderfire battery then I guess you just wouldn't get out of the tank. Likewise for hellhounds, or the random whirlwind. It's not like you don't have the choice. You'll not I didn't mention markerlights. Likely because if you're in the middle of a tau formation with a battlewagon and 15 burnas then you've probably already won the game.

generalgrog wrote:

Seriously though, is anyone really that surprised here? They released an upgrade sprue last year, and they are releasing a bunch of ork stuff next month. You all should have seen this coming. They are probably going to sell out, of upgrade sprues now. LOL


GG

Exactly. GW cares a lot less about how rulings negatively effect gameplay than they do about how they effect sales.

Kinda like them making my Long Fangs cheaper and better than standard Dev Squads because they were probably not selling them to Vanilla SM players very often.

Nothing related to metagame and overpowerness of battlewagons, a rules question.
I'm getting back this post from page 8, but the thead is going fast, and it has not been answered.

sirisaacnuton wrote:Since this is in the YMDC area now too, I suppose I could pose this here.

The ramming vehicle stops when it contacts another vehicle unless the rammed vehicle explodes. So for a Deff Rolla Ram, does that mean the one regular ram hit (the one calculated from armor, speed, and being a tank) must explode the vehicle for the Battle Wagon to keep moving, or will the Battle Wagon keep going if any of the 1d6 S10 hits explode the rammed vehicle?

Basically, is the one hit the "Ram" with the 1d6 being an additional benefit from ramming, or does the Deff Rolla simply make the Ram into 1d6+1 hits, (with the 1 possibly a different S from the 1d6)?

I can see it falling out either way. From a logic standpoint, I can see the argument that if the initial ram fails to explode the vehicle, the Battle Wagon stops while the Rolla it just slammed into something grinds the other vehicle apart, but it's already lost its momentum. But which way seems more appropriate given the RAW? (Don't own an Ork codex unfortunately.)

So.
Do BW still ram with the one standard ram hit, or is it replaced by deffrolla attack, or both (thus the D6+1) ?
I think both.

Are these D6 deffrolla hits still considered as a part of ramming attack, or as special independant attacks ?
I think this is an important question. In the second case, the D6 hits would not confer the possibility to tank shock further the survivors of an exploded transport (if the single standard ramming has failed of course).


Dakkaites opinion ?

Both, and it continues one if it explodes the vehicle, otherwise it halts, as per the ramming rules.

Ravajaxe wrote:
So.
Do BW still ram with the one standard ram hit, or is it replaced by deffrolla attack, or both (thus the D6+1) ?
I think both.

Are these D6 deffrolla hits still considered as a part of ramming attack, or as special independant attacks ?
I think this is an important question. In the second case, the D6 hits would not confer the possibility to tank shock further the survivors of an exploded transport (if the single standard ramming has failed of course).


Dakkaites opinion ?

"However, if the rammed vehicle is removed
because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage
result, the rammer continues its move..."
I don't believe the ram rule specifies that only the ram damage can cause this removal, just that if the vehicle is removed the rammer continues. As it's in the paragraph discussing ram results, I could easily see it read to refer only to those however.

I also don't believe the rolla or ram rules state that the rolla hits negate or replace the ram hit. You get both.

nkelsch wrote:
Will the 'response' to Deffrollas being legal to crush LRs being a total backlash on the width of custom BWs and people getting up in arms and requesting the disqualification of any BW that is slightly larger than the stock model? Will people figure "if you are going to deffroll me, I am going to cause you pain by refusing to allow anything but the stock BW and stock deffroller 100% unmodified." While we all know they could claim RAW as the rulebooks ays official citadel minis, we all now RAP that most people don't mind custom ork vehicles and have never had a reason to really complain... until now.

I am curious to see how Adepticon handles this and how they rule on converted and custom Ork transports.

As with all cases of modeling for in-game advantage, at Adepticon they will be handled on a case-by-base basis.

If you're playing with non-standard Battlwagons and/or Deff Rollas and a tournament judge feels you've done so to gain an advantage you could suffer a number of penalties, such as being forced to play the game 'as if' they were the stock size of the GW battlewagon all the way up to being ejected from the tourney.

Ultimately if you think it even might be an issue you should be contacting Adepticon ahead of time using their 'model policy' email address and especially bringing it up before each game with your opponent to make sure you smooth it over with them.


And yes, this ruling will obviously apply at Adepticon and we will be ruling on ancillary issues (like if the Deff Rolla hits can destroy the rammed vehicle and allow the Battlewagon to continue ramming), but we probably won't put out the update until GW releases their Tyranid FAQ, as we're trying to only do one more update.

Of course, if GW doesn't release a Tyranid FAQ soon...then we'll see.

My Orks never needed the Rolla for tank busting but always had them anyways. They've always been useful.

Now instead of speed bump guard units to stop horde orks, those speed bump guard units, armed with meltas, will now be used to stop BW's. BW's are still relatively weak compared to other tanks in the game.

For the last 2 years I've noticed that rational people were for or neutral to the rolla and the irrational and hate-filled people were against it. I'm just happy there is a ruling one way or another.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kaotik wrote:I was kinda wondering about that graph myself. I cannot fathom how one melta shot @ BS4 has more probability to wreck av14 than 6 str 10 auto hits.

Ok, that might be the issue here. It's not 6 auto-hits, it's 1D6 auto-hits. It might be 6. . . or it might be 1.

That graph contains 6 probability lines for the deffrolla; the meltagun line passes above one. This indicates that a single meltagun shot has a higher probability to destroy AV14 than a deffrolla which rolls only a single hit, but a lower probability than a deffrolla which rolls two hits.

Against AV14, deffrolla hit has to roll 5+ to pen AV14, and then 5+ to destroy the vehicle. That's a 1/9 CTK per hit.

Or, let me put it this way. Even if a deffrolla rolls a 6 for number of hits, it only has a 51% chance to kill an AV14 vehicle! With an average of 3.5 on a d6, the deffrolla's average chance to kill an AV14 vehicle is 33.4%. All these fantastic scenarios of a deffrolla exploding two Land Raiders in a row and such nonsense are ridiculous. The deffrolla is just like most other powerful Ork weapons; random.

This ruling has made it worth using, not wildly overpowered. Meltas are better! A BS4 melta has a 2/3 chance to hit, a 20/36 chance to pen, followed by a 1/3 chance to kill, equating to a 12% chance to kill an AV14 vehicle per melta shot, as opposed to an 11% chance per deffrolla hit. A deffrolla gets 3.5 hits on average, meaning it's a bit less effective (once again, on average) than 4 meltaguns.

So a deffrolla is cheap for what it does, yes. But it comes with a number of limitations. First off; you must tank shock at maximum speed to use it! So you HAVE to move 12", and you HAVE to be in base contact with the target. No wiggle room, no side-armour shots. Also, it's mounted on a chassis with side armor 12! Just kill the bugger before it reaches you! Melta-vets in Valks eat Battlewagons for breakfast, whether they've got Deffrollas or not.

One thing, isn't a Melta's chance to kill 1/2 because of the +1 for AP1?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kaotik wrote:I was kinda wondering about that graph myself. I cannot fathom how one melta shot @ BS4 has more probability to wreck av14 than 6 str 10 auto hits.



Ok, that might be the issue here. It's not 6 auto-hits, it's 1D6 auto-hits. It might be 6. . . or it might be 1.

That graph contains 6 probability lines for the deffrolla; the meltagun line passes above one. This indicates that a single meltagun shot has a higher probability to destroy AV14 than a deffrolla which rolls only a single hit, but a lower probability than a deffrolla which rolls two hits.

Against AV14, deffrolla hit has to roll 5+ to pen AV14, and then 5+ to destroy the vehicle. That's a 1/9 CTK per hit.

Or, let me put it this way. Even if a deffrolla rolls a 6 for number of hits, it only has a 51% chance to kill an AV14 vehicle! With an average of 3.5 on a d6, the deffrolla's average chance to kill an AV14 vehicle is 33.4%. All these fantastic scenarios of a deffrolla exploding two Land Raiders in a row and such nonsense are ridiculous. The deffrolla is just like most other powerful Ork weapons; random.

This ruling has made it worth using, not wildly overpowered. Meltas are better! A BS4 melta has a 2/3 chance to hit, a 20/36 chance to pen, followed by a 1/3 chance to kill, equating to a 12% chance to kill an AV14 vehicle per melta shot, as opposed to an 11% chance per deffrolla hit. A deffrolla gets 3.5 hits on average, meaning it's a bit less effective (once again, on average) than 4 meltaguns.

So a deffrolla is cheap for what it does, yes. But it comes with a number of limitations. First off; you must tank shock at maximum speed to use it! So you HAVE to move 12", and you HAVE to be in base contact with the target. No wiggle room, no side-armour shots. Also, it's mounted on a chassis with side armor 12! Just kill the bugger before it reaches you! Melta-vets in Valks eat Battlewagons for breakfast, whether they've got Deffrollas or not.

Berzerker, once again, so reasonable and measured, and not living up to your screen-name!

Grimgob wrote:

Budzerker wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:So I am assuming the D6 S10 hits replace the actual ram rule then? No mention is made that they stack.

From the FAQ:

Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

This lends credence to the "they do stack" argument. As it seems you resolve the Tank Shock, then if your vehicle is still alive, you take the Rolla' hits.

Does this mean that if a skimmer succesfully stops a ram on a 3+ does it not take the ram but still take deffrolla hits?

"Any tank shock made by a battlewagon with a deffrolla causes D6 Strength 10 hits on the victim unit"
The deffrolla still inflicts those hits on units that pass their leadership test and elect to move out of the way. This suggest that the same would happen to a skimmer even if it passed the 3+ roll to avoid a ram.

but from page 71 of brb
"On a 3+ the skimmer avoids the tank, neither vehicle suffers any damage"

It's a direct contradiction (*gasp*)
The question then becomes whether or not a rule in a codex supercedes the brb..which has been stated to be the case in several faq's.


In short..it seems that the skimmer would still get hit (but I agree that it probably shouldn't)

Ozymandias wrote:
One thing, isn't a Melta's chance to kill 1/2 because of the +1 for AP1?

Holy pop culture reference, Batman, you're right!

So actually, a meltagun has an 18% CTK per shot against AV14, as compared to the Deffrolla's 11% chance per hit. That means that, on average, a Deffrolla is as effective as 2 meltagun shots against AV 14; not hits, shots. In addition, it suffers from the additional limitations explained earlier.

So the question before the jury is; why is everyone so worked up about the fact that Orks are allowed to take the equivalent of two meltaguns for 20 points? Ok, that's fairly cheap for the effect. I don't think it's in any way unbalancing.

2 Meltaguns for 20 Points? Unpossible! I mean, SW get 2 Meltaguns for 5 points...

Because it's the internets. We're bored at work and like to poke things.

Y'know, meltaguns that auto hit, ignore cover, ignore intervening models, can kill multiple vehicles per shot, can kill entire squads per shot, and that contain other models.

The deffrolla isn't a meltagun, and it's in a codex that doesn't even have the meltagun (instead having the single most cost effective troops choice in the entire game).

If I promise to buy lots of vypers can they FAQ them to be able to ram?

Why would you want Vypers to ram? Surely they'd just do more damage to themselves?

ShumaGorath wrote:Y'know, meltaguns that auto hit,

False analogy. I included chance to hit in my calculations. Please actually read the math before denigrating it.

ignore cover

Irrelevant. How often is something obscured from a model within 6" of it?

ignore intervening models

Ignore WHAT intervening models? There can't possibly BE any, you're in base contact.

can kill multiple vehicles per shot

And can also kill zero vehicles per game, with only a little bad luck. Your point?

can kill entire squads per shot

Flatly wrong. Maximum of 6 hits, remember? Which don't ignore armor.


You seriously need to actually READ what I posted before slamming it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:
One thing, isn't a Melta's chance to kill 1/2 because of the +1 for AP1?

Holy pop culture reference, Batman, you're right!

So actually, a meltagun has an 18% CTK per shot against AV14, as compared to the Deffrolla's 11% chance per hit. That means that, on average, a Deffrolla is as effective as 2 meltagun shots against AV 14; not hits, shots. In addition, it suffers from the additional limitations explained earlier.

So the question before the jury is; why is everyone so worked up about the fact that Orks are allowed to take the equivalent of two meltaguns for 20 points? Ok, that's fairly cheap for the effect. I don't think it's in any way unbalancing.

The unbalancing effect two-fold: first that the Battlewagon is an AV14 vehicle that is almost always taken with a permanent 4+ cover save, and now has by far the most destructive anti-tank weapon in the game. Secondly, while it's about as powerful as two half-range meltagun shots, the real power of the Deffrolla is that the damage is dealt in the Movement phase, allowing the Ork player to choose whether or not to disembark, and can be done before anything else moves. Nothing else in the game gives this much of a tactical advantage - the only two movement phase damage dealers I can thing of are Swooping Hawk grenade packs and Bigbomms, neither of which come close to packing the power of a Deffrolla.

Regardless, the Deffrolla can now legally attack vehicles, and we'll all have to adapt or die.

False analogy. I included chance to hit in my calculations. Please actually read the math before denigrating it.

BS 3, 4 or 5?

Irrelevant. How often is something obscured from a model within 6" of it?

Smoke launchers, custom force fields, fast moving skimmers, intervening models, vehicle squadrons. In my experience? Often.

Ignore WHAT intervening models? There can't possibly BE any, you're in base contact.

I didn't know I used a meltagun in close combat.

And can also kill zero vehicles per game, with only a little bad luck. Your point?

A maximum value isn't irrelevant in a statistical calculation.

Flatly wrong. Maximum of 6 hits, remember? Which don't ignore armor.

That will kill a space marine captain better than a meltagun shot, and will tear a vehicle squadron to pieces far faster. It's a good response to tyranid warriors and the doom of malantai as well.

You seriously need to actually READ what I posted before slamming it.

Slamming it? When did I do that?

BS 3, 4 or 5?

I used BS4, since MEQs are the most common army.

Smoke launchers, custom force fields, fast moving skimmers, intervening models, vehicle squadrons. In my experience? Often.

Fair enough. In my experience, not very often, but then since I usually play Orks my experience with meltas is limited. My CSM don't often have a problem with it once they're within 6". Also, squadrons shouldn't do anything, you just shoot at the one closest to you and the hits are spread out among the squadron.

I didn't know I used a meltagun in close combat.

You use the Deffrolla in base contact, so it's not ignoring any intervening models because there aren't any. As for meltas; If you're within half melta range, it is very unlikely, to say the least, that there are models in between you and your target. And if there is, isn't that dealt with by your point above about cover?

A maximum value isn't irrelevant in a statistical calculation.

This is true, but if you'd read my math you'd see that I have talked about that. A single meltagun also has a maximum value, in that it could blow up any vehicle in the game. In that, the meltagun and the Deffrolla are no different at all.

That will kill a space marine captain better than a meltagun shot, and will tear a vehicle squadron to pieces far faster. It's a good response to tyranid warriors and the doom of malantai as well.

Assuming the Space Marine Captain has a 2+ save; average of 4 hits (we'll round up), 3.33 wounds rounded down to 3, all saved. No dice. You have to be lucky to kill a SM Captain with a Deffrolla, whereas with a melta you pretty much just have to hit him and he's gibbed.

Vehicle Squadrons; I might dispute that a Deffrolla will get more kills than a pair of meltas against a vehicle squadron; they ought to be about the same. None of the math ceases to apply to squadrons.

Warriors; no. Rear AV10; the Warriors will suck up the hits and then shred it. If you're arguing a Battlewagon full of Nobz or something like that, I would point out that adding what is arguably the best CC unit in the game to the debate changes the parameters, just slightly.

Doom of Malantai; Yep, that's true. A Deffrolla is better than a pair of meltas against the Doom, because he has a higher chance of failing at least one save.

Slamming it? When did I do that?

"Y'know, meltaguns that auto hit, ignore cover, ignore intervening models, can kill multiple vehicles per shot, can kill entire squads per shot, and that contain other models."

That statement struck me as somewhat snarky and dismissive. Yes yes, I know, call the Whaambulance, I bruised my angst.

I used BS4, since MEQs are the most common army.

My most common enemies are tau, IG, and tyranids. Though I will agree that MEQs should be the most common.

Also, squadrons shouldn't do anything, you just shoot at the one closest to you and the hits are spread out among the squadron.

It's extremely easy to grant large vehicle squadrons like leman russes cover by virtue of ancillary vehicle placement. I've seen it done many a time.

You use the Deffrolla in base contact, so it's not ignoring any intervening models because there aren't any. As for meltas; If you're within half melta range, it is very unlikely, to say the least, that there are models in between you and your target. And if there is, isn't that dealt with by your point above about cover?

Its quite easy to prevent that 6" range with a thin spaced wall of models. The thin man-line is the greatest counter to drop sternguard that my play environment can't seem to grasp. As a tank the defrolla would just move through the squad, quite possibly damaging it as well.

Assuming the Space Marine Captain has a 2+ save; average of 4 hits (we'll round up), 3.33 wounds rounded down to 3, all saved. No dice. You have to be lucky to kill a SM Captain with a Deffrolla, whereas with a melta you pretty much just have to hit him and he's gibbed.

Several noteworthy and commonly used MEQ special characters possess only a 3+ save (shrike for instance). The 2+ save is a dealbreaker though.

That statement struck me as somewhat snarky and dismissive. Yes yes, I know, call the Whaambulance, I bruised my angst.

I do press the snark sometimes.

Actually, assuming a 2+ save, you have a 57% chance of making all three saves (5/6 ^3) for about 42% chance of dying. A MG at BS4 has about a 28% chance of gibbing the same commander.

If someone keeps their commander out in the open infront of melta guns and deff rollas youve already won anyway..

LOL... very true. I just wanted to point out that saying "3.33 wounds isn't enough to kill a 2+ model" isn't the correct way to think about it.