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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That might be true Loki.
But it still begs the question, why exclude part of your customer base from information about forthcoming products.

Even if the silent ajority of which you speak do not wish to get involved in online debate, it does not follow that they would not wish to know in advance of what is happening in their hobby.

I was under the distinct impression that GW are not that bothered about keeping people playing as long as there is fresh blood to keep coming through.

Thing is, the internet community talks an awul lot of utter bollocks.

Snap judgements based on a *rumour*. Self important opinions, about how something should have been done a different way blah blah blah. Seriously, it's a pretty toxic environment online. And when it's a minority doing so, where is the business sense in attempting to placate them? Show them a picture, they'll tear it apart. Offer a rumour 'ZOMG BORKENS!' and so on. Hell, take the letter of reply from Mark Wells. People reading into his words, desperate to be offended. Why the hell would you want to engage with such people?

For a fairly poor analogy, it's like some of the Policy holders I have to deal with at work. You can tell them that their excess stands, and this is written in their policy, until your blue in the face (and I often have done) but at the end of the day, they've already made up their mind that they are correct. Seriosuly, I've had people go to the Ombudsmen within 72 hours of their claim being reported, because despite the Road Traffic Act allowing 90 days for the establishing of liability, some people are just utter arseholes, when they know the other person isn't in a position to erm....express themself.

There is obviously a fair amount of hyperbole in the Internet in general, of course, but only the most dyed in the wool blinder wearing nincompoop would suggest that GW has dropped nothing but gak sandwiches in their customers laps over the past couple of months.

Thing is, the internet community talks an awul lot of utter bollocks.

Yes there is bunkum on the internet, and yes there are some people that will complain about everything that GW ever do, even praiseworthy things.

That does not, however, mean that all criticism of GW on the internet is bunkum.

Equally there are some people who will defend even the most pitifully stupid decisions GW make as if their own existence depends upon it.
That does not mean that some things are not defensible of course. But a lot of the bunkum seems to be coming from the pro GW lobby at the moment.

Loyalty is an admirable quality imho. But not when if blinds one to reality and binds one to the indefensible.

Alpharius wrote:There is obviously a fair amount of hyperbole in the Internet in general, of course, but only the most dyed in the wool blinder wearing nincompoop would suggest that GW has dropped nothing but gak sandwiches in their customers laps over the past couple of months.

The only thing they've meaningfully put in my lap that has been unpleasant has been price hikes. As an American customer who doesn't buy white dwarf and who doesn't purchase online reseller products in favor of directly supporting game stores almost none of this controversy effects me in the slightest. Am I a died in the wool nincompoop for generally not caring?

There is a difference between apathy and ignorance.

You may be a nincompoop for not caring as it only helps the poor management decisions prosper and convince them they are doing the right thing. But that is your choice not to bother. You are still aware that GW is run by a bunch of ninnies.

Actually, knowingly supporting them?! That is worst than the blind loyalty!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:There is a difference between apathy and ignorance.

Yes

You may be a nincompoop for not caring as it only helps the poor management decisions prosper and convince them they are doing the right thing.

Thats not how correlative reinforcement of decision making in corporate structures really works. They certainly likely have some metrics for measuring the success of these policies, however they will not be based on measuring rough stop loss of their customer base incidental and unrelated to the decisions in question. When liptons formulae changes they don't really measure doctor peppers sales to see what the effects are.

But that is your choice not to bother. You are still aware that GW is run by a bunch of ninnies.

They mimic their customer population well.

Actually, knowingly supporting them?! That is worst than the blind loyalty!

Yes. Worst.

Why would GW want WD to be THE source of all info? To raise flagging sales is the obvious answer. But maybe not the only answer; looking at the 6th ed rumor thread, I think that if GW knows huge changes are happening in the coming year, the best way to manage it would be to have all information come from them, out of their official mouthpiece. That way they can frame the change in the best possible way to drive new sales / counter the haters. If people pick up WD because of that then that's just gravy.

Note that I don't agree w/ this at all, just taking a stab at alternative motivations.

They mimic their customer population well.

Actually I retract the ninnies statement. It was ill considered
They exploit the foibles of the customers too cynically for them to be mere fools

There’s been a lot of Apologist versus Hater discussion on the forums. Good to see some discussion regarding the difference from being a support/fan and being an apologist. The key point I’d like to add to Chibi’s definition above is that it’s possible to purchase a GW product and not be branded as an apologist. One is only branded as an apologist when staunch defence of GW reaches ludicrous levels.

I think we should probably scale back the apologist versus hater discussion a bit as it doesn’t enrich the discussion very much.

I’d also recommend the apologist crowd taking a chill pill regarding the recent GW hate. The negative internet discussion is only natural given the recent bad GW decisions. The negative discussion will most likely die down, “if” GW manages to pick up their game (otherwise it will probably get worse lol). At the end of the day, most of the vets here on the forums have spent 10-20+ years with GW and thus have a right to be negative with anything that affects the way they’ve spent a good chunk of their life on. As someone who recently rage quit GW, it’s kind of sad that’s it gotten to this stage given how awesome they used to be during third edition.

Hi guys, I finally got a non-kaput computer so am back in the land of the living. I will admit I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, as I still have some 60+ pages to read on 'FineCast' whatever that might be.

My point of posting here is simple, I haven't bought a White Dwarf since I moved to the US seven years ago, and I quit awhile before that, about the time Jake Thornton stopped editing the UK version in favor of Fat Bloke's Bacon jokes. I'm mildly excited that the announcement on page 1of this thread because if GW breaks the habit of a lifetime and actually follows through on their promise and we get a WD that's similar to the old days with trial rules, actual non-advertising battle reports and op-ed columns that are closer to the old Stillmania!, Chambers of the Horned Rat and J Files articles as opposed to what Standard Bearer appears to be according to the internet, then I might

Well, I might got to a FLGS and flip through a copy before reading about all the interesting content on-line. If it's really, really super doubleplusgood than i might even deign to purchase the occasional copy. It might help if it was less to buy an issue of WD than it is for me to buy the latest Black Library opus (I'm a fluffernutter, I'd rather spend my $8-$9 on a story set in the 40K background than most other things).

I probably won't buy the WD with the sisters Codex in, mostly because I don't keep up with WD normally and didn't know such existed until today. Also, unless it gets the full model support and maybe later printing as an actual revised 'dex, the army is just gonna wither on the vine.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

They mimic their customer population well.

Actually I retract the ninnies statement. It was ill considered
They exploit the foibles of the customers too cynically for them to be mere fools

They are clamping down on information because I, and people like me, downloaded every book they released in the past five years a month before they were released physically. They also likely see inefficient and negative PR coming from rumor sources in this community due largely to the unfiltered nature of hearsay and rumors (the sixth edition thread being full of hyperbolic idiocy for example). Mixing all this into a reaffirmed effort in pushing white dwarf as an actual resource for the hobby (it will probably be sold with full color FAQs for codexes in sixth if those rumors hold true) isn't entirely unwise. They're still a company of idiots though. They make godawful day to day decisions and their longterm plan of propping up their hobby centers as a bellwether against competing brands will likely put them out of business.

They aren't exploiting their customers in any special way. They're selling you tiny plastic men. You're already exploited to the fething maximum for buying expensive tiny unpainted plastic toys anyway. So get over the persecution. They're a company, you're a customer. They aren't your friend and they don't hate you any more then the dude that owns your FLGS.

I realise that for some the idea of running a business is to make a profit by any means possible.
I apologise profusely for believing that the customer should be treated with respect. An old fashioned concept and maybe a tad romantic, but that is the nature of the beast.

It matters not a jot if they are selling tiny plastic men or lumps of moon rock full of space pubes. Or are you suggesting that toy soldiers are paid for with pretend money?

The customers are for the most part human however much the managers consider them to be cash cows and sheep.
They want my money, but they ain't getting it until they start running a business that treats its customers with respect rather than contempt.

Amazingly I am not so presumptious to consider my FLGS manager a mucker. But he and his staff are delightful to do business with. It is a pleasure to visit the Games Emporium, Orchard Square, Sheffield.
Recommended.

No company is 'your friend'. Some just have good PR that makes you think they are.

Companies are run by people who want to make money. They figure out the audience they want to cater to and work towards pleasing that audience.

The problem is GW has been making so many boneheaded moves lately that no one can figure out who they're trying to cater to. It can't be their usual young males with parents who have a lot of disposable income, since they're pricing even those out.

This move seems like they're trying to appeal again to their oldtimer audience, who they've pissed off for years. Unfortunately, for many, it's too little too late, and they're doing it in a way that makes no sense.

Of course they use PR, but that is not about friendship.
I don't know anyone who treats businesses as their friend.
Good grief.

"No company is your friend"
This was just a condescending and pointless comment.
Every bit as much as the oft used "It's a business it is trying to make a profit!"

Getaway with you REALLY! never knew that!

I don't think of any business as a friend though I do enjoy the company of my friends
But there are some companies that are a pleasure to do business with because they go about making a profit and still treat their customers with respect.

dajobe wrote:To quote princess leya from Episode 4 "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers!"
GW, dont let more star systems slip! Keep your players and be nice to them!

Best use of a quote ever!!!

Mr Mystery wrote:

Thing is, the internet community talks an awul lot of utter bollocks.

Snap judgements based on a *rumour*. Self important opinions, about how something should have been done a different way blah blah blah. Seriously, it's a pretty toxic environment online. And when it's a minority doing so, where is the business sense in attempting to placate them? Show them a picture, they'll tear it apart. Offer a rumour 'ZOMG BORKENS!' and so on.

Only if it's a rubbish model or a rubbish idea for a rule. Most people have been overwhelmingly positive about the new Necromancer model for example, it's just the other 95% of the Storm of Magic release we've said is crap.

Now if it's a more of a love it/hate it model such as the Storm Raven, then I can see where the internet community might do a small amount of harm as the odd person sitting on the fence might be persuaded it's rubbish. Most of the time however, people are capable of making up their own minds.

Regardless, our negative hyperbole is no worse than GW's positive equivalent on "What's New Today?" with their "We're releasing this amazing new Manticore this week. I don't even collect Manticores, but I absolutelly have to buy one because it is SO amazing" nonsense

Fosner1703 wrote:

dajobe wrote:To quote princess leya from Episode 4 "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers!"
GW, dont let more star systems slip! Keep your players and be nice to them!

Best use of a quote ever!!!

thx, i thought it was pertinent and funny

I realise that for some the idea of running a business is to make a profit by any means possible.
I apologise profusely for believing that the customer should be treated with respect. An old fashioned concept and maybe a tad romantic, but that is the nature of the beast.

I don't think you have even the slightest idea what it means for a business not to treat you with respect. Die when your radials fail or have a bank forclose on you early. Hell, have your credit card stolen then don't be told about it for weeks. Thats disrespectful.

Games workshop has done truly little that is actually disrespectful to their customer base. Over entitled and whiny neckbeards on the internet? Maybe. But they aren't a demographic that is really possible to please and attempts to do so are just as likely to be counter productive anyway as this community regularly shows.

It matters not a jot if they are selling tiny plastic men or lumps of moon rock full of space pubes. Or are you suggesting that toy soldiers are paid for with pretend money?

I'm suggesting you're buying an expensive luxury item without functional application outside of leisure. They can price and make whatever the hell they want, until you start opening boxes with the wrong items or you get lead poisoning they aren't disrespecting you. It's at your impetus that you buy into this hobby, they aren't selling you food.

The customers are for the most part human however much the managers consider them to be cash cows and sheep.
They want my money, but they ain't getting it until they start running a business that treats its customers with respect rather than contempt.

This is why I hate the 40k community. They don't know what words like "respect" or "contempt" mean.

I don't think of any business as a friend though I do enjoy the company of my friends
But there are some companies that are a pleasure to do business with because they go about making a profit and still treat their customers with respect.

Name one.

Are you seriously saying that nothing a business does to it's customers should be called disrespectful unless it actually ruins or endangers lives?

Wow.

Ehsteve wrote:WD codex...how easy is it going to be hauling 2 issues of WD to every tournament every time and referencing everything? I'd be interested to see how they do it in parts, but nothing more than interested.

I understand they've done it before, but they certainly don't have the longevity of a decent codex. I guess after the disappointment of the Blood Angels WD, Grey Knights WD and Tomb Kings WD I'm pretty skeptical about anything more than the odd interview and 'words of wisdom' from the codex writers.

I hope they will offer it the codex as a pdf download. If not I will probably end up scanning it in and making it a pdf myself. Itas nice to have an iPad.

Samus666 wrote:Are you seriously saying that nothing a business does to it's customers should be called disrespectful unless it actually ruins or endangers lives?

Wow.

Whats disrespectful? Limiting online resale? Well maybe resellers shouldn't undercut them by half using international currencies. Pricing isn't a respect issue in luxury goods. Diamonds are sold at a profit often times exceeding ten thousand percent of costs, are they disrespecting their customers? If you didn't want it don't buy it. Limiting online info spread? Thats not even a respect issue, thats just pertinent and most companies engage in the same practices. Overpricing goods in australia? They should probably do something about their import issues then since most luxury goods are outrageously expensive there (120 dollar PS3 games at the high end for instance).

Did a GW employee call you a name? Did they spill ink on your shirt? What the hell are they doing to disrespect you? Are they just not catering to your exact sales demographic by aiding online piracy and selling at thinner margins? I'm not buying an iPad, are they disrespecting me for not making it more commercially affordable? Am I being disrespected because they don't let leaks go public easily?

gak too expensive in australia? Maybe you should buy a 360 and use that.
http://www.ebgames.com.au/xbox360-150845-Xbox-360-250GB-Console-Xbox-360




None of this is a respect issue, this is just whiny nerds feeling entitled about something they themselves don't even fully understand.

Thank you so very much GW, you're making it very difficult for me to figure out why I continue to play this game.

Mmmmmmmm topic arrrrrgle..........

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think of any business as a friend though I do enjoy the company of my friends
But there are some companies that are a pleasure to do business with because they go about making a profit and still treat their customers with respect.

Name one.

Chick-Fil-A

Fosner1703 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think of any business as a friend though I do enjoy the company of my friends
But there are some companies that are a pleasure to do business with because they go about making a profit and still treat their customers with respect.

Name one.

Chick-Fil-A

The Home Depot.

Fosner1703 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think of any business as a friend though I do enjoy the company of my friends
But there are some companies that are a pleasure to do business with because they go about making a profit and still treat their customers with respect.

Name one.

Chick-Fil-A

I absolutely love Chick Fil A. The manager always walks around and asks how your meal was, and offers to get you refills, the manager at my store gives me free sandwhich coupons sometimes because she recognizes me because i go there for lunch alot. They are nice.
On Topic: i have never really gotten more than a couple issues in store, its just too expensive for me, i'd much rather have 3 extra squads a year than 12 magazines.

Plus Sweet Tea rocks!

So... are we done here now?

Alpharius wrote:

So... are we done here now?

Sure.

Estimated date of arrival of WD ( pre-e-mail ) : 22.06.11
Arrived: not yet....

So I hope whoever is responsible for this suffers a ton of delays of things s/he waits for too.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think of any business as a friend though I do enjoy the company of my friends
But there are some companies that are a pleasure to do business with because they go about making a profit and still treat their customers with respect.

Name one.

Nike
Chipotle
Privateer Press
Progressive
Southwestern Airlines

Seriously, GW's customer interface is nearer to the bottom of the barrel relations-wise than a majority of the companies I deal with on a semiregular basis. I'd rate McDonald's higher than GW.