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Icemyn wrote:Also I have already shown how may is not a green light to use it. Being given permission and being able to do something based
on other restrictions are very different.

Correct. What other restrictions are there?

Icemyn wrote:
Note that I said WE can bicker like children, also if you note I was using the future tense for something that hasn't happened yet.
Really no need to be so defensive dude.
And it does have basis in the rules as it says clearly that Psykers have permission to use one, without the permission to use
psychic powers other units can use zero. I am not certain how you cannot infer that.
Also I have already shown how may is not a green light to use it. Being given permission and being able to do something based
on other restrictions are very different.

Your argument hinges on the fact that just because it states that psykers can use one power does not preclude others from using say
infinite. And objectively I would agree with you if not for this being a permissive rule set.

"The following general rules explain how
psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules
are covered in the Codexes.
Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn.
To use a psychic power successfully...[continues on about Ld tests, irrelevant to this]" Page 50 of the BRB.

That seems pretty clear that the psyker rules are general. Exceptions (such as the vehicles being allowed to use powers) are covered in the codexes. Also, nowhere does it say that;

Icemyn wrote:
And it does have basis in the rules as it says clearly that Psykers have permission to use one, without the permission to use
psychic powers other units can use zero. I am not certain how you cannot infer that.

In fact, it is you who are inferring that other units can use zero without the special rule, not rig.

This exception, which is provided in the codex (psychic pilot) as allowed by the rulebook (p.50 see quote above) covers how the vehicle can use psychic powers, and yet is not a psyker for other reasons, because it does not have the 'psyker' rule.

"The following general rules explain how
psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules
are covered in the Codexes.
Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn.
To use a psychic power successfully" Page 50 of the BRB.

That seems pretty clear that the psyker rules are general. Exceptions (such as the vehicles being allowed to use powers) are covered in the codexes. Also, nowhere does it say that;

Except that by doing so you are using rules governing the use of Psykers as the section is listed as PSYKER and how they use such abilities by taking Psychic Tests, Perils of the Warp and activation of Force Weaponry. It's not a Psychic Powers section of the BrB nor does it ever specify that other units may use these rules without being Psykers. And the GK Codex specifically states Psychic Pilots are Psykers (Mastery Level1).

Answer this: is an Eldar Farseer a Psyker? Is a Warlock?

motyak wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
And it does have basis in the rules as it says clearly that Psykers have permission to use one, without the permission to use
psychic powers other units can use zero. I am not certain how you cannot infer that.

In fact, it is you who are inferring that other units can use zero without the special rule, not rig.

This exception, which is provided in the codex (psychic pilot) as allowed by the rulebook (p.50 see quote above) covers how the vehicle can use psychic powers, and yet is not a psyker for other reasons, because it does not have the 'psyker' rule.

I dont know what you mean by the "In Fact" line. If you re read, my position is exactly that non psykers are allowed zero not Rigeld's.
Also no PP covers how to take tests and deal with hoods not how a vehicle uses psychic powers.
You are trying to make a specific versus general case when there is nothing in the GK codex that is specific to overide the psyker restriction.

I quoted those rules so that I could show how an exception to those rules is allowed to act in a similar manner, without being governed by those rules in the same way as a unit which is a psyker would be.

You are partially right in what you say, that they are psyker mastery level 1, but that is only for the times that they cast fortitude/suffer perils as a result. It is not a permanent thing. Your interpretation of that differs to rig's and mine, and that's cool, and this means that I doubt we will get anywhere since both sides seem pretty sure they are right, and are sticking to their guns. We provide the same piece of evidence and interpret it two different ways. It severely limits how we can discuss the topic, since what either side uses to bolster their argument, the other side would also use to reinforce theirs. It is a spiral down into the depths of hell. But lets crack on, I might catch you at a moment of weakness and convince you

Icemyn wrote:You are trying to make a specific versus general case when there is nothing in the GK codex that is specific to overide the psyker restriction.

You still haven't cited a restriction.

motyak wrote:I quoted those rules so that I could show how an exception to those rules is allowed to act in a similar manner, without being governed by those rules in the same way as a unit which is a psyker would be.

You are partially right in what you say, that they are psyker mastery level 1, but that is only for the times that they cast fortitude/suffer perils as a result. It is not a permanent thing. Your interpretation of that differs to rig's and mine, and that's cool, and this means that I doubt we will get anywhere since both sides seem pretty sure they are right, and are sticking to their guns. We provide the same piece of evidence and interpret it two different ways. It severely limits how we can discuss the topic, since what either side uses to bolster their argument, the other side would also use to reinforce theirs. It is a spiral down into the depths of hell. But lets crack on, I might catch you at a moment of weakness and convince you

This is exactly what I said a little bit ago. well kinda in a more obtuse way lol.
As I have said since jumping into this I have no horse in this race. Though if for some reason GW decides Im right,
I would love to know how they would handle Crucible of Malediction on Rhinos with passengers lol.

For the record RAI I fully believe you guys are right just this little bit of rules vaguery bugs me which is why i even stepped in.


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rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:You are trying to make a specific versus general case when there is nothing in the GK codex that is specific to overide the psyker restriction.

You still haven't cited a restriction.

Actually, I have and you have either tried to ignore it or don't wish to acknowledge its relevance which is fine.
But, on a side note if you tried being a little less blunt and unfriendly, you might be able to stop people like NecronLords
personal attacks.

Icemyn wrote:

motyak wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
And it does have basis in the rules as it says clearly that Psykers have permission to use one, without the permission to use
psychic powers other units can use zero. I am not certain how you cannot infer that.

In fact, it is you who are inferring that other units can use zero without the special rule, not rig.

I do not see how I am inferring your claim 'that other units can use zero powers because the rules say exactly that' when I provide you a rule which does not mention units which are not psykers. You are inferring, from that rule, that it applies to more than what is written on the paper, and restricts units from using powers if they are not psykers. This is not present in the rule, it is an inference. Therefore, it is you who are inferring that they can use 0 psychic powers without the rule.

Icemyn wrote:
I dont know what you mean by the "In Fact" line. If you re read, my position is exactly that non psykers are allowed zero not Rigeld's.
Also no PP covers how to take tests and deal with hoods not how a vehicle uses psychic powers.
You are trying to make a specific versus general case when there is nothing in the GK codex that is specific to overide the psyker restriction.

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Master level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If the vehicle suffers a Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit." Psychic Pilot rules (to the letter).

Permission to take Psychic Tests and suffer perils is just there in psychic pilot.

"This power may be used in the Grey Knights' Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful, any crew shaken and crew stunned results already on the vehicle are nullified and no longer apply." Fortitude rules (to the letter minus the bit about activating psycho-reactive armour, its irrelevant).

That shows how the Psychic test, which the Grey Knight player is allowed to use because of the Psychic Pilot rules, activates Fortitude. And therefore how GK vehicles with this rule can use it to cast powers.

PP just tells you your leadership when taking the test not permission to take it.
And your point about inference is fine but without being given permission to take a test the number of tests you can take is zero.
So yes its an inference,but that fact isnt so relevant.

And it also tells you that you are a psyker (Mastery level 1), which means;

"Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn." Psyker Mastery Levels (to the letter).

This shows how the rhino, which counts as a psyker (Mastery level 1) when carrying out a Psychic Test and Psychic Hoods, can cast a power

motyak wrote:And it also tells you that you are a psyker (Mastery level 1), which means;

"Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn." Psyker Mastery Levels (to the letter).

This shows how the rhino, which counts as a psyker (Mastery level 1) when carrying out a Psychic Test and Psychic Hoods, can cast a power

Be careful that is the ruling that Rigeld2 and friends are railing against. That they are a psyker at all times and not just for the two instances listed .

Unless you are trying to do things out of sequence in which case, you are doing it out of sequence.

But I didn't just say they were a psyker at all times...I meant that they were a psyker just for the two instances listed, which means they can cast powers, but are unaffected by mindstrikes and the like...

And I thought that it was NecronLord and friends supporting that it was a psyker at all times, and rig n co. arguing against?

Thats why i wrote the second line. In order to even activate a psychic power you must be a psyker.
If you are not a psyker then PP does nothing as you can never get to the point where you are taking a test.

But PP rule says you are a psyker who can cast one power a turn for the purpose of taking psychic tests. And for hoods. Thats how you get to the point of taking a test.

motyak wrote:But I didn't just say they were a psyker at all times...I meant that they were a psyker just for the two instances listed, which means they can cast powers, but are unaffected by mindstrikes and the like...

And I thought that it was NecronLord and friends supporting that it was a psyker at all times, and rig n co. arguing against?

It is a Psyker at all times, it says so in Psychic Pilot. The LD 10 is just there to explain how a vehicle can perform Psychic abilities when otherwise it could not because vehicles have not LD value. The specification for Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is there to temporarily give the unit a LD value. If it gave a permanent one, then nightmare shrouds would be making Land Raiders run away or be pinned by pinning weapons. Give GW credit for covering all their bases. Its just unfortunate that some people are trying to wiggle around the disadvantages of being a Psyker, while trying to keep the advantages. Poor show.

motyak wrote:But PP rule says you are a psyker who can cast one power a turn for the purpose of taking psychic tests. And for hoods. Thats how you get to the point of taking a test.

Only with the prevailing opinion you are only a psyker level one for the purposes of taking tests and being hooded never for activating the power or before that or any other time.

NecronLord3 wrote:

motyak wrote:But I didn't just say they were a psyker at all times...I meant that they were a psyker just for the two instances listed, which means they can cast powers, but are unaffected by mindstrikes and the like...

And I thought that it was NecronLord and friends supporting that it was a psyker at all times, and rig n co. arguing against?

It is a Psyker at all times, it says so in Psychic Pilot. The LD 10 is just there to explain how a vehicle can perform Psychic abilities when otherwise it could not because vehicles have not LD value. The specification for Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is there to temporarily give the unit a LD value. If it gave a permanent one, then nightmare shrouds would be making Land Raiders run away or be pinned by pinning weapons. Give GW credit for covering all their bases. Its just unfortunate that some people are trying to wiggle around the disadvantages of being a Psyker, while trying to keep the advantages. Poor show.

No, it doesn't say that it is always a psyker in Psychic Pilot. It says 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purpose of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.' Nothing about being a psyker at all times, only 'for the purpose of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

And that is kinda mean saying poor show and saying that people are trying to wriggle out of disadvantages to do with being a psyker, that is not at all what is happening here, it is just people disagreeing with you, and you assigning negative attributes to them so that when other people come around and read it, they start to side with you automatically because you have affixed the people arguing with you labels like 'poor show' and 'people who try to wriggle out of rules and gain advantage'. Just plain mean.

Icemyn wrote:

motyak wrote:But PP rule says you are a psyker who can cast one power a turn for the purpose of taking psychic tests. And for hoods. Thats how you get to the point of taking a test.

Only with the prevailing opinion you are only a psyker level one for the purposes of taking tests and being hooded never for activating the power or before that or any other time.

And Dreadnoughts can never activate Doomfists since they require the wielder to be a Psyker.


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motyak wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

motyak wrote:But I didn't just say they were a psyker at all times...I meant that they were a psyker just for the two instances listed, which means they can cast powers, but are unaffected by mindstrikes and the like...

And I thought that it was NecronLord and friends supporting that it was a psyker at all times, and rig n co. arguing against?

It is a Psyker at all times, it says so in Psychic Pilot. The LD 10 is just there to explain how a vehicle can perform Psychic abilities when otherwise it could not because vehicles have not LD value. The specification for Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is there to temporarily give the unit a LD value. If it gave a permanent one, then nightmare shrouds would be making Land Raiders run away or be pinned by pinning weapons. Give GW credit for covering all their bases. Its just unfortunate that some people are trying to wiggle around the disadvantages of being a Psyker, while trying to keep the advantages. Poor show.

No, it doesn't say that it is always a psyker in Psychic Pilot. It says 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purpose of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.' Nothing about being a psyker at all times, only 'for the purpose of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

And that is kinda mean saying poor show and saying that people are trying to wriggle out of disadvantages to do with being a psyker, that is not at all what is happening here, it is just people disagreeing with you, and you assigning negative attributes to them so that when other people come around and read it, they start to side with you automatically because you have affixed the people arguing with you labels like 'poor show' and 'people who try to wriggle out of rules and gain advantage'. Just plain mean.

Draigo doesn't say he is a Psyker at all times either. So as long as I don't cast an ability or activate my Force Weapon am I immune to Mindstrike Missiles?

"To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must
pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test.
Note that this test must always be made on the
psyker’s own Leadership value. Even where Leadership
tests would normally be taken on the value of another
model, tests for using psychic powers are always taken
using the psyker’s own Leadership."

That is where they talk about how to take a test. Icemyn, they don't say that you have to 'activate' a power before you can take a Psychic test. The Psychic test itself is the 'activation' of the power, if you want to use that word. The Psychic test which you are allowed to make because of Psychic Pilot.


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NecronLord3 wrote:
Draigo doesn't say he is a Psyker at all times either. So as long as I don't cast an ability or activate my Force Weapon am I immune to Mindstrike Missiles?

But it does. He has Psyker (Mastery level 2) in his special rules without any of the limitations impressed upon it by Psychic Pilot. So he does always count as a psyker, and is thus vulnerable to mindstrike missiles.

motyak wrote:"To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must
pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test.
Note that this test must always be made on the
psyker’s own Leadership value. Even where Leadership
tests would normally be taken on the value of another
model, tests for using psychic powers are always taken
using the psyker’s own Leadership."

That is where they talk about how to take a test. Icemyn, they don't say that you have to 'activate' a power before you can take a Psychic test. The Psychic test itself is the 'activation' of the power, if you want to use that word. The Psychic test which you are allowed to make because of Psychic Pilot.

You cannot use any of the first section on page 50 after the Description for PSYKERS unless the model you are using is a Psyker. There are no rules for the use of Psychic abilities, only rules for how Psykers may cast Psychic Powers.

If you play against me and claim you don't suffer from Psych-out grenades, Draigo's Titan Sword, the Culexus Assassin's Animus Speculum, or Mind Strike Missiles then you aren't casting any Psychic abilities or activating force weapons with your vehicles either.

But it does. He has Psyker (Mastery level 2) in his special rules without any of the limitations impressed upon it by Psychic Pilot. So he does always count as a psyker, and is thus vulnerable to mindstrike missiles.

So how about Eldar Farseers and Warlocks, are you prepared to not allow any anti-Psyker weapons to be used against them too? They don't have any Psyker Special rules either.

Well the odds of me playing you are slim to none, but thats beside the point.

I can use things after the first section because it explicitly gives me permission.

"The following general rules explain how
psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules
are covered in the Codexes."

This is one of those exceptions which is covered in a codex, explicitly allowed as per the basic rule book. Psychic pilot makes me a psyker for the exact times I need to use a psychic test to cast a power, and to be hooded. That is it. No other times.

motyak wrote:Well the odds of me playing you are slim to none, but thats beside the point.

I can use things after the first section because it explicitly gives me permission.

"The following general rules explain how
psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules
are covered in the Codexes."

This is one of those exceptions which is covered in a codex, explicitly allowed as per the basic rule book.

BS the rules section on Page 50 is a general set of rules, for specifics see each codex, however all Psychic Abilities are goverened under the root section from the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Precedent has been set by GW with the Daemon Entry in the FAQ about what is a Daemon which boils down to anything vaguely with the word Daemon is its name, the Daemon rule and Mandrakes. Seems like only people in this thread need it to be spelled out to them that a Psychic Pilot is a Psyker even thought they already did that in the Psychic Pilot rules.

Round and roud we go and yet were no further along.

what pg shows the rules with the words "permissive"rules? because I hear hammerhand can stack but the rule for it dosent say you can stack them...

NecronLord3 wrote:
BS the rules section on Page 50 is a general set of rules, for specifics see each codex, however all Psychic Abilities are goverened under the root section from the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

I can't make out anything about how all psychic abilities are governed by that section in the BRB, except that part I just quoted...which specifically states that exceptions from the codexes are covered in those codexes... It doesn't mention specifics in codexes, it mentions exceptions. Thats the important difference.

And Draigo, I couldn't agree more with the fact its an impossible argument, neither side will give in, it just beats the hell out of listening to a POLS lecture on echo...

Edit: and I don't get your PM necronlord, what about farseers? I don't have an eldar codex, and I've never played em, so I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about in regards to them.

Edit: my mate up the road had an eldar codex but I don't know if its the right one. Phil Kelly wrote it in....2006. It sounds hell old, is it the one before the current?

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DK wrote:what pg shows the rules with the words "permissive"rules? because I hear hammerhand can stack but the rule for it dosent say you can stack them...

I think the bit you are looking for is in the Hammerhand entry in the Grey Knight Codex. It says 'all models in the unit (including ICs) have +1 strength...yadda yadda end of combat or what have you". This would mean that if a squad cast it, then they and the IC would get it, then the IC could cast his, and he and the squad would get it. I guess. Is that what you were asking?

motyak wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:
BS the rules section on Page 50 is a general set of rules, for specifics see each codex, however all Psychic Abilities are goverened under the root section from the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

I can't make out anything about how all psychic abilities are governed by that section in the BRB, except that part I just quoted...which specifically states that exceptions from the codexes are covered in those codexes... It doesn't mention specifics in codexes, it mentions exceptions. Thats the important difference.

And Draigo, I couldn't agree more with the fact its an impossible argument, neither side will give in, it just beats the hell out of listening to a POLS lecture on echo...

Edit: and I don't get your PM necronlord, what about farseers? I don't have an eldar codex, and I've never played em, so I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about in regards to them.


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DK wrote:what pg shows the rules with the words "permissive"rules? because I hear hammerhand can stack but the rule for it dosent say you can stack them...

I think the bit you are looking for is in the Hammerhand entry in the Grey Knight Codex. It says 'all models in the unit (including ICs) have +1 strength...yadda yadda end of combat or what have you". This would mean that if a squad cast it, then they and the IC would get it, then the IC could cast his, and he and the squad would get it. I guess. Is that what you were asking?

it doesnt say it is allowed to stack, like stacking the stealth rule wont get you +2 cover save, so if its a permissive rule set, you are not allowed to stack hammerhand, so why is one accepted and the psychic pilot not?

I honestly don't get your point DK. First you insult people. Say your'e leaving dakka and yet here your are argueing in circles. Hmmerhands stacking doesn't better serve your cause it just starts a whole new debate and shows why the gk book was poorly written. That has already been talked to death like with doom fists, dk personal teleporter, psy out grenades, etc etc and so forth.

NecronLord in regards to your PM which you asked me to answer here, it says in the Farseer's entry 'A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between 1 and 4 Farseer psychic powers. A Farseer can use a single psychic power a turn.' Sounds cut and dry to me.

And very OT: seriously, only one a turn? I would have thought eldar farseers would pump out 2 or 3 a turn, not just 1...

And DK, I don't see the relevance between the hammerhand stacking and psychic pilot? Sorry.

Wow, this thread has gone on way too long for such a simple rule.

motyak wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:
BS the rules section on Page 50 is a general set of rules, for specifics see each codex, however all Psychic Abilities are goverened under the root section from the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

I can't make out anything about how all psychic abilities are governed by that section in the BRB, except that part I just quoted...which specifically states that exceptions from the codexes are covered in those codexes...

And Draigo, I couldn't agree more with the fact its an impossible argument, neither side will give in, it just beats the hell out of listening to a POLS lecture on echo...

Edit: and I don't get your PM necronlord, what about farseers? I don't have an eldar codex, and I've never played em, so I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about in regards to them.

PSYKERS

These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from individual psyker to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are descrribed in detail in the Codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are emplyed. Exception to these rules are covered in the Codexes.

Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test. Note that this test must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, tests for psychic powers are always taken using the psyker's own Leadership.

Eldar Farseers and Warlocks do not have Psyker Special rules. Only Psychic powers.


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motyak wrote:NecronLord in regards to your PM which you asked me to answer here, it says in the Farseer's entry 'A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between 1 and 4 Farseer psychic powers. A Farseer can use a single psychic power a turn.' Sounds cut and dry to me.

The same wording as Psychic Pilot.