Mindstrike Missiles Vs Grey Knight Vehicles

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DK

Yes I did, you altered something you saw in your head and read it wrong, seemsclikey ou do that alot. proves my point.

**rigeld2**

DK wrote:Yes I did, you altered something you saw in your head and read it wrong, seemsclikey ou do that alot. proves my point.

I... what?

**NecronLord3**

rigeld2 wrote:
Are you still under the impression that nos and I are the same poster?

I never said that. Seems funny that you immediately jumped to that conclusion and are awfully defensive about it.

**Happyjew**

NecronLord3 wrote:Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

You're right you never said they were, but you did imply it. And when rigeld, nos and I all commented on it you never once claimed that isn't what you meant.

**nosferatu1001**

NecronLord3 wrote:
Wow, just openly name calling now. Really doing yourself credit. I think we all know who is presenting a better reasoned argument without attacking the poster per the Tenents of YMDC.

Yes, me. Or are you still under the impression that Rigeld and me are the same person, and insulting the pair of us every time you insult one of us individually?

How about you hit the mod alert button, explain that you have accused people of running duplicate accounts seemingly JUST to post in threads pointing out the deficiencies in your arguments, and see what happens?

DK - please stop abbreviating posts, as it makes them difficult to read, as per the forum tenets

**Icemyn**

Back on Topic guys, or not w.e works for you guys really.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
BRB p. 50
"Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn."

1) Psykers can use 1 power.
2) To use it successfully the psyker must pass a psychic test.

I havent checked his quotes but if they are true and what most of you are claiming to be true is that they are only psykers in 2 instances, what allows them to activate a psychic power to even get to the point of taking a test?

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

With a strict RAW reading, with the common interpretation, he is allowed to take tests and be hooded but cannot actually activate a power to get to the point of testing.

I don't have a horse in this race and truly do not care about the outcome so please keep the flaming to a minimum. Just asking for a clarification is all.

**nosferatu1001**

NecronLord3 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Are you still under the impression that nos and I are the same poster?

I never said that. Seems funny that you immediately jumped to that conclusion and are awfully defensive about it.

So what else does "back to the nos profile" mean then? Or is this just hasty back pedalling to try to pretend you didnt accuse someone of running duplicate accounts?

I am not rigeld2. Prove I am, or else retract your assertion that we are the same person as it is a lie.

**DevianID**

Page 21 in the GK codex, its under "Psychic Pilot" and has been quoted in this thread many times.

for the purposes of the Psychic test, it is a psyker.

The Psychic test is how you determine if the power succeeds or fails

My point is that, while the test determines if a power works or does not work, there is no permission to use the power in the first place--the rules work for tests and hoods according to some on this thread. You are not a psyker, and are not psychic mastery 1, for determining HOW MANY powers you may use--again only for tests and hoods.

The choice of some in this topic to limit the PP rule to only being a psyker for tests and for hoods means that unless someone makes you take a psychic test (some obscure rule) then the rule does nothing.

**DeathReaper**

the Fortitude rule makes you take a Psychic test.

**Dok**

NecronLord3 wrote:
Dok wrote:Ok, let me tell you a little story about player A and player B. It is a mysterious and dark tale. With much grimness and darkness!

2 GK players are playing each other in a game of warhammer 40,000. One player (player a) has a stormraven gunship, the other player (player b) has a Rhino. Player A moves his stormraven into 24" range moving combat speed. He is now allowed to fire all if his weapons. Player A fires mindstrike missiles and his other weapons at the rhino. A mindstrike missile hits the rhino. Let me check to see what a mindstrike missile does. S4, ap 6, Psi-shock*. Oh, a special rule, what does that do?

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects"

Sounds scary.

Player B now checks his Rhino special rules. The rhino has a special rule called Psychic pilot. It says "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods" Player B makes sure he is not making a pyschic test or rolling against a psychic hood. No, neither of those are allowed as the rhino can only use it's power in the movement phase. So, since neither of those conditions are met, then the Rhino cannot be a psyker and is therefore not affected by psi-schock.

Now, say one of the shots from the other weapons shook the rhino of player B. After that, Player A ends his turn.

During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability. You either are a Psyker or you aren't. Just as infantry is always infantry, Montourous Creatures are always Montorous creatures, etc... You can be both Jump Infantry and a Monsourous Creature, or Infantry and a Psyker but you can't choose to be one at one time, and another t another time. Psychic Pilots are Psykers Matery Level 1. That is it. The rest of their rules cover how units with no LD value can cast Psychic powers or roll against Psychic hoods. Does the tank become leadership 10 and suddenly become effected by pinning weapons? No, it is LD 10 only for psychic tests and rolls against hoods. Nothing stops it from being a Psyker.

Unfortunately your impressions of the game are not the rules. I'm not choosing anything. The rule is telling me when I can do things. As people have mentioned further down in this thread, almost everything you said above is wrong.

**DevianID**

Deathreaper, Fortitude is a psychic power, right? How many psychic powers can a vehicle do?

**DeathReaper**

Fortitude specifically allows the Vehicle to use it.

"This power may be used in the GK Movement phase..."

Thus you are allowed to use it, so you use the power and check to see if the vehicle can roll for a Psychic test.

Yep, Psychic pilot says they are a psyker and LD 10 for the purposes of psychic tests, so we roll a 3 and a 4, and Fortitude works.

**NecronLord3**

Dok wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:
Dok wrote:Ok, let me tell you a little story about player A and player B. It is a mysterious and dark tale. With much grimness and darkness!

2 GK players are playing each other in a game of warhammer 40,000. One player (player a) has a stormraven gunship, the other player (player b) has a Rhino. Player A moves his stormraven into 24" range moving combat speed. He is now allowed to fire all if his weapons. Player A fires mindstrike missiles and his other weapons at the rhino. A mindstrike missile hits the rhino. Let me check to see what a mindstrike missile does. S4, ap 6, Psi-shock*. Oh, a special rule, what does that do?

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects"

Sounds scary.

Player B now checks his Rhino special rules. The rhino has a special rule called Psychic pilot. It says "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods" Player B makes sure he is not making a pyschic test or rolling against a psychic hood. No, neither of those are allowed as the rhino can only use it's power in the movement phase. So, since neither of those conditions are met, then the Rhino cannot be a psyker and is therefore not affected by psi-schock.

Now, say one of the shots from the other weapons shook the rhino of player B. After that, Player A ends his turn.

During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability. You either are a Psyker or you aren't. Just as infantry is always infantry, Montourous Creatures are always Montorous creatures, etc... You can be both Jump Infantry and a Monsourous Creature, or Infantry and a Psyker but you can't choose to be one at one time, and another t another time. Psychic Pilots are Psykers Matery Level 1. That is it. The rest of their rules cover how units with no LD value can cast Psychic powers or roll against Psychic hoods. Does the tank become leadership 10 and suddenly become effected by pinning weapons? No, it is LD 10 only for psychic tests and rolls against hoods. Nothing stops it from being a Psyker.

Unfortunately your impressions of the game are not the rules. I'm not choosing anything. The rule is telling me when I can do things. As people have mentioned further down in this thread, almost everything you said above is wrong.

DeathReaper wrote:Fortitude specifically allows the Vehicle to use it.

"This power may be used in the GK Movement phase..."

Thus you are allowed to use it, so you use the power and check to see if the vehicle can roll for a Psychic test.

Yep, Psychic pilot says they are a psyker and LD 10 for the purposes of psychic tests, so we roll a 3 and a 4, and Fortitude works.

And you can't cast Psychic powers if you aren't a Psyker. So if you are choosing to be unaffected by Mindstrike Missiles, Draigos Titansword, the Culexus Assassin's Animus Speculum, etc. You can't cast Fortitude either. You would be violating the rules on page 50 of the BrB.

**nosferatu1001**

Incorrect, as has been shown. You have specific permission to use the power.

**NecronLord3**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Incorrect, as has been shown. You have specific permission to use the power.

And by doing so you become a Psyker per the Psychic Pilot rule stating you are a Psyker (Mastery Level 1).

**Draigo**

Ok so necronlord obviously youre not changing you mind and no one else is. Why keep argueing? Hell DK is even losing in his poll he started.

You keep clutching to the rule in the brb when it specifically states in the codex only when using their power. Give it a rest you aren't changing anyones mind with the SAME 1 trick pony.

**Happyjew**

And after you cast the power, you no longer count as a psyker.

**rigeld2**

Seriously, show me on page 50 where only Psykers can cast powers.

You havent ever cited a rule that restricts usage to only Psykers.
You've cited rules that say Psykers may, and we have a rule saying te vehicle can... Where is the denial of permission?

**Icemyn**

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, show me on page 50 where only Psykers can cast powers.

You havent ever cited a rule that restricts usage to only Psykers.
You've cited rules that say Psykers may, and we have a rule saying te vehicle can... Where is the denial of permission?

You know that it is a permissive rule set... I don't have to find the denial of permission. Just wanted to address that first.

Second you have shown that the vehicle per the rules DR has quoted "may" be used in the Movement phase.

At that time that you "may" activate it the vehicle per your reading is not a psyker and per the rules is not able to use the psychic power.

If you go to a store you "may" buy everything/anything, but if you don't have any money you can't.
The pre-requisite for buying doesn't change that you may.

This horrible analogy aside the "may" is not permission in and of itself. As without being a psyker within this permissive rule set the
PP vehicle is unable to use any psychic powers.

**rigeld2**

Icemyn wrote:This horrible analogy aside the "may" is not permission in and of itself. As without being a psyker within this permissive rule set the
PP vehicle is unable to use any psychic powers.

Not true.
The may is absolutely permission.
There's no statement on page 50 of the BRB that only Psykers can cast psychic powers.
The Fortitude power says it may be used.

Show the rule that says it may not be used.

**Icemyn**

rigeld2 wrote:
Icemyn wrote:This horrible analogy aside the "may" is not permission in and of itself. As without being a psyker within this permissive rule set the
PP vehicle is unable to use any psychic powers.

Not true.
The may is absolutely permission.
There's no statement on page 50 of the BRB that only Psykers can cast psychic powers.
The Fortitude power says it may be used.

Show the rule that says it may not be used.

Well I will try at least.

pg.15 the shooting phase "Normally each model in a firing unit CAN fire a single weapon..."
Note: I am using can as a synonym for may, if we cant agree to this then ignore the rest of my post.

While this is permission to fire a weapon, where may is permission to use the psychic power this does
not preclude the model/unit from meeting all the other criteria.
In the shooting case we both know there are dozens of reasons for a unit/model being unable to shoot. Pinned, ran, etc...
In the case of using a psychic power being a psyker is the main criteria for using a psychic power per page 50.
Psykers are allowed to use one psychic power per turn, that is the permission nothing else gives permission.
Unless you come across something in which case please let me know.

If the vehicle is not a psyker it cannot use psychic powers regardless of other permissions it may be given.

**rigeld2**

Icemyn wrote:In the shooting case we both know there are dozens of reasons for a unit/model being unable to shoot. Pinned, ran, etc...

And all of them deny permission to shoot. You can't shoot if...

Psykers are allowed to use one psychic power per turn, that is the permission nothing else gives permission.

No - Fortitude says may. You now need to find something that says "You can't use a psychic power without being a Psyker." or something similar.

Shooting - you have generic permission, and a bunch of potential denials.
Psychic power - you have permission from Fortitude, and don't have permission (note - not a denial, just a lack of permission) from the Psyker rule.

Please find a denial.

**NecronLord3**

rigeld2 wrote:
Icemyn wrote:In the shooting case we both know there are dozens of reasons for a unit/model being unable to shoot. Pinned, ran, etc...

And all of them deny permission to shoot. You can't shoot if...

Psykers are allowed to use one psychic power per turn, that is the permission nothing else gives permission.

No - Fortitude says may. You now need to find something that says "You can't use a psychic power without being a Psyker." or something similar.

Shooting - you have generic permission, and a bunch of potential denials.
Psychic power - you have permission from Fortitude, and don't have permission (note - not a denial, just a lack of permission) from the Psyker rule.

Please find a denial.

There is no need for a denial only permission. Psykers page 50 is the only permissive ruleset allowing you to cast psychic abilities. If you aren't a psyker, you can't make psychic tests or activate force weapons.

**rigeld2**

NecronLord3 wrote:There is no need for a denial only permission. Psykers page 50 is the only permissive ruleset allowing you to cast psychic abilities. If you aren't a psyker, you can't make psychic tests or activate force weapons.

So you're ignoring the permission given by Fortitude?

**motyak**

Ninja'd on my 500th post...dammit rig

Fortitude and Psychic pilot together

**Icemyn**

rigeld2 wrote:
Icemyn wrote:In the shooting case we both know there are dozens of reasons for a unit/model being unable to shoot. Pinned, ran, etc...

And all of them deny permission to shoot. You can't shoot if...

Psykers are allowed to use one psychic power per turn, that is the permission nothing else gives permission.

No - Fortitude says may. You now need to find something that says "You can't use a psychic power without being a Psyker." or something similar.

Shooting - you have generic permission, and a bunch of potential denials.
Psychic power - you have permission from Fortitude, and don't have permission (note - not a denial, just a lack of permission) from the Psyker rule.

Please find a denial.

I have already stated where I see the denial.

Is the PP vehicle a psyker?(y/n) n
How many psychic powers can a non psyker use? 0
Is Fortitude a psychic power?(y/n) y
Can a PP ever activate fortitude per your reading?(y/n) n

Now Feel free to disagree if you wish or call how I would do it a house rule then I will do the same and we
can bicker like children or we can move on which is what I plan to do. As I have stated I don't see any real
reason to ever want my GK opponents vehicles to be psykers at all times given the armies I play.

**rigeld2**

Icemyn wrote:Is the PP vehicle a psyker?(y/n) n
How many psychic powers can a non psyker use? 0
Is Fortitude a psychic power?(y/n) y
Can a PP ever activate fortitude per your reading?(y/n) n

Your second question/answer has no basis in the rules.
Also, you're ignoring the fact that Fortitude gives you permission to use it.

Now Feel free to disagree if you wish or call how I would do it a house rule then I will do the same and we
can bicker like children or we can move on which is what I plan to do. As I have stated I don't see any real
reason to ever want my GK opponents vehicles to be psykers at all times given the armies I play.

That's kind of insulting.
I don't think I'm bickering like a child.

**NecronLord3**

rigeld2 wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:There is no need for a denial only permission. Psykers page 50 is the only permissive ruleset allowing you to cast psychic abilities. If you aren't a psyker, you can't make psychic tests or activate force weapons.

So you're ignoring the permission given by Fortitude?

Permission is given for vehicles with Psychic Pilots to be Psykers. Its not this temporary ability your side has invented its permanent, Psychic Pilots are Psykers (Mastery Level 1).

**rigeld2**

NecronLord3 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:There is no need for a denial only permission. Psykers page 50 is the only permissive ruleset allowing you to cast psychic abilities. If you aren't a psyker, you can't make psychic tests or activate force weapons.

So you're ignoring the permission given by Fortitude?

Permission is given for vehicles with Psychic Pilots to be Psykers. Its not this temporary ability your side has invented its permanent, Psychic Pilots are Psykers (Mastery Level 1).

.. for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods.

Side question - if you didn't mean to imply that nos and I are the same person, could you explain what you meant by the following?

NecronLord3 wrote:Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

**Icemyn**

rigeld2 wrote:
Icemyn wrote:Is the PP vehicle a psyker?(y/n) n
How many psychic powers can a non psyker use? 0
Is Fortitude a psychic power?(y/n) y
Can a PP ever activate fortitude per your reading?(y/n) n

Your second question/answer has no basis in the rules.
Also, you're ignoring the fact that Fortitude gives you permission to use it.

Now Feel free to disagree if you wish or call how I would do it a house rule then I will do the same and we
can bicker like children or we can move on which is what I plan to do. As I have stated I don't see any real
reason to ever want my GK opponents vehicles to be psykers at all times given the armies I play.
That's kind of insulting.
I don't think I'm bickering like a child.

Note that I said WE can bicker like children, also if you note I was using the future tense for something that hasn't happened yet.
Really no need to be so defensive dude.
And it does have basis in the rules as it says clearly that Psykers have permission to use one, without the permission to use
psychic powers other units can use zero. I am not certain how you cannot infer that.
Also I have already shown how may is not a green light to use it. Being given permission and being able to do something based
on other restrictions are very different.

Your argument hinges on the fact that just because it states that psykers can use one power does not preclude others from using say
infinite. And objectively I would agree with you if not for this being a permissive rule set.