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Ok, let me tell you a little story about player A and player B. It is a mysterious and dark tale. With much grimness and darkness!

2 GK players are playing each other in a game of warhammer 40,000. One player (player a) has a stormraven gunship, the other player (player b) has a Rhino. Player A moves his stormraven into 24" range moving combat speed. He is now allowed to fire all if his weapons. Player A fires mindstrike missiles and his other weapons at the rhino. A mindstrike missile hits the rhino. Let me check to see what a mindstrike missile does. S4, ap 6, Psi-shock*. Oh, a special rule, what does that do?

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects"

Sounds scary.

Player B now checks his Rhino special rules. The rhino has a special rule called Psychic pilot. It says "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods" Player B makes sure he is not making a pyschic test or rolling against a psychic hood. No, neither of those are allowed as the rhino can only use it's power in the movement phase. So, since neither of those conditions are met, then the Rhino cannot be a psyker and is therefore not affected by psi-schock.

Now, say one of the shots from the other weapons shook the rhino of player B. After that, Player A ends his turn.

During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

Im still waitting of a pg ref for what the diffrence between Psyker and psyker. At the same time for the story above, that rhino player would see, "if suffers potw it takes a glance hit" at its own sentence

Dok wrote:Ok, let me tell you a little story about player A and player B. It is a mysterious and dark tale. With much grimness and darkness!

2 GK players are playing each other in a game of warhammer 40,000. One player (player a) has a stormraven gunship, the other player (player b) has a Rhino. Player A moves his stormraven into 24" range moving combat speed. He is now allowed to fire all if his weapons. Player A fires mindstrike missiles and his other weapons at the rhino. A mindstrike missile hits the rhino. Let me check to see what a mindstrike missile does. S4, ap 6, Psi-shock*. Oh, a special rule, what does that do?

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects"

Sounds scary.

Player B now checks his Rhino special rules. The rhino has a special rule called Psychic pilot. It says "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods" Player B makes sure he is not making a pyschic test or rolling against a psychic hood. No, neither of those are allowed as the rhino can only use it's power in the movement phase. So, since neither of those conditions are met, then the Rhino cannot be a psyker and is therefore not affected by psi-schock.

Now, say one of the shots from the other weapons shook the rhino of player B. After that, Player A ends his turn.

During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability. You either are a Psyker or you aren't. Just as infantry is always infantry, Montourous Creatures are always Montorous creatures, etc... You can be both Jump Infantry and a Monsourous Creature, or Infantry and a Psyker but you can't choose to be one at one time, and another t another time. Psychic Pilots are Psykers Matery Level 1. That is it. The rest of their rules cover how units with no LD value can cast Psychic powers or roll against Psychic hoods. Does the tank become leadership 10 and suddenly become effected by pinning weapons? No, it is LD 10 only for psychic tests and rolls against hoods. Nothing stops it from being a Psyker.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Edit meaning Rigeld2 of course. I believe he should provide his own quotes to prove his point about wound and Wound if it is even relevant.

It's on page 3. Did you read past the first or last post in the topic? I'd say it was easy to miss, but it's scattered all over page 3 of this thread.

I also brought up and discussed the FAQ ruling on the Daemonbane rules on page 5.

Edit - I didn't include the actual FAQ entry though, so cheers for including that.

ND - Wound refers to the characteristic on your statline. Its a core definition in the rulebook - you should probably know it.

wound refers to a wounding-hit caused from shooting, close combat, etc.

There are clear differences between the two.

Necronlord - "No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability."

It is if your rules, that GIVE you the Psyker rule, states that you are a psyker for 2 purposes - which is the entire point.

Your statement is demonstrably false

Saying you are a Psyker means you are a psyker always
Saying you are a Psyker for the purposes of X and Y means you are only a Psyker for those two purposes, and no others.

Which is what the rule actually says - you are a psyker for just 2 purposes, tests and hoods. Nothing more, nothing less

DK - stop belittling others by saying it is full of 14 year olds and you are "teaching" kids how to play the game. Immaturity abounds

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - Wound refers to the characteristic on your statline. Its a core definition in the rulebook - you should probably know it.

wound refers to a wounding-hit caused from shooting, close combat, etc.

There are clear differences between the two.

Necronlord - "No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability."

It is if your rules, that GIVE you the Psyker rule, states that you are a psyker for 2 purposes - which is the entire point.

Your statement is demonstrably false

Saying you are a Psyker means you are a psyker always
Saying you are a Psyker for the purposes of X and Y means you are only a Psyker for those two purposes, and no others.

Which is what the rule actually says - you are a psyker for just 2 purposes, tests and hoods. Nothing more, nothing less

DK - stop belittling others by saying it is full of 14 year olds and you are "teaching" kids how to play the game. Immaturity abounds

Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

Dok wrote:
During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

The Rule permits you to have leadership 10 when you are doing psychic tests or using a psychic hood. The permissive rule argument doesn't work because we cannot tell if the for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods applies to the first part of the sentence or the second part since it is a complex sentence and ambiguous.

Both sides have a valid argument. I can agree to that. The fact that by RAW you can argue both sides but by logic one side is clearly more sensible then the other and is how RaI would normally be played. Stating how a Furioso Librarian is only proves when a Furioso Librarian can be a psyker. There are not multiple psyker vehicles that have a rule applied to them like the psychic pilot rule is.

Grey Templar wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

Ordinarily yes, but Psychic Pilot specifically gives permission for the Dreadnought to be a Psyker for using psychic powers. Of which a force weapon is one of them.

The argument allows the dreadnought to cast the psychic power which activates the force weapon if the dreadnought had the ability to gain the psychic power to activate the force weapon which it does not. Force weapons are used by psykers and grant them a psychic power to activate the force weapon. You are not a psyker thus cannot activate the force weapon because you were never granted that power which is the fatal flaw not allowing you to use force weapons.

However if you were a psyker all the time this would not be an issue since the force weapon would grant you the power and then you would have the psychic power and br granted leadership 10 in order to cast the power for the psychic test.

NecronLord3 wrote:Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

Wait, are you implying that rigeld and nos are actually the same person? Wow. Just wow.

To those wondering, Psyker is a special rule. The Psyker special rule generally says something along the lines of "This model is a psyker...". Other units have a special rule that states they are psykers. Warlocks have a special rule called "Warlock Powers" which states the Warlock is a psyker. As it stands, in order to use a psychic power you must be a psyker. This is always specified by a special rule (i.e. Psyker). Most (almost all, in fact) units are permanently psykers. However, vehicles with the 'Psychic Pilot' special rule are Psykers for the purpose of psychic tests and psychic hoods. Hopefully that clears some things up. But I know someone is going to argue this with me.

Happyjew wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

Wait, are you implying that rigeld and nos are actually the same person? Wow. Just wow.

I don't know if I should be flattered or insulted.. sec, lemme switch profiles.
(just kidding - we aren't the same person - as anyone who reads this forum for more than this thread would know)

rogueeyes wrote:The Rule permits you to have leadership 10 when you are doing psychic tests or using a psychic hood. The permissive rule argument doesn't work because we cannot tell if the for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods applies to the first part of the sentence or the second part since it is a complex sentence and ambiguous.

The "For the purposes of" applies to the whole sentence, as there is not comma separating "psyker (mastery level 1) and leadership 10"

If it read psyker (mastery level 1), and leadership 10" It would still not be ambiguous, as that would mean it is a psyker, and it is LD 10 for tests and hoods. But it does not read like that and there is only one way to read it, and that it to have the "For the purposes of" apply to the whole sentence.

DeathReaper wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:The Rule permits you to have leadership 10 when you are doing psychic tests or using a psychic hood. The permissive rule argument doesn't work because we cannot tell if the for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods applies to the first part of the sentence or the second part since it is a complex sentence and ambiguous.

The "For the purposes of" applies to the whole sentence, as there is not comma separating "psyker (mastery level 1) and leadership 10"

If it read psyker (mastery level 1), and leadership 10" It would still not be ambiguous, as that would mean it is a psyker, and it is LD 10 for tests and hoods. But it does not read like that and there is only one way to read it, and that it to have the "For the purposes of" apply to the whole sentence.

What part of Vehicles have no leadership values is really not getting across to you people? Seriously, I've always felt the 40k community was a little smarter than this thread has demonstrated.

Vehicles are incapable of casting psychic powers or rolling against Psychic hoods, hence the rule "for the purposes of" this does not in anyway discount the fact that the pilot is PSYCHIC. Psychers suffer the effects of weapons and abilities that target psykers. You don't get to pick and choose.


You can keep repeating yourselves and I will stay here and repeatedly correct you. Site a rule in the BRB that allows non-psykers to cast psychic powers. Go ahead, you never will because the rule DOESN'T fething EXIST.

Like necron lord 3 im waitting for you all to under stand that the sentence reads the and as a seperation. the rhino is a psyker because the pilot is a psyker connected to his vehicle in bound...the and means because hes a psyker with no ld value he recives ld 10 for tests, meanning he does not have ld value for pinning tests or fall back tests, just for his psychic tests. that is what a normal person sees in that.

They are allowed to be a psyker and LD 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods.

How is that difficult to understand?

the "And" is not a separation, it bridges the first part of the complex sentence with the second part. the "For the purposes of" applies to the whole sentence because there is no other punctuation dividing the sentence into two clauses.

DeathReaper wrote:They are allowed to be a psyker and LD 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and hoods.

How is that difficult to understand?

the "And" is not a separation, it bridges the first part of the complex sentence with the second part. the "For the purposes of" applies to the whole sentence because there is no other punctuation dividing the sentence into two clauses.

"For the Purposes of" is giving a unit that otherwise does not have LD value one for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods. But it excludes the Vehicle from being targeted by abilities that can cause moral checks and pinning tests against units with a LD value. You can't pin a tank or make it run away because it's a psyker.

Regardless of punctuation being necessary or not. It does not matter as there is no existence of temporary unit types. You either are a Psyker or your not, there is no middle ground. You don't get the advantages and abilites of being a Psyker without the negative effects from weapons that effect Psykers. Sorry!

#1 psyker is not a unit type. Unit types are listed on P. 4 and 5, notice psyker is not listed.

#2 "For the Purposes of" gives the unit a LD for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods, it is also saying that the vehicle is a psyker for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods.

#3 the Psychic Pilot allows the unit to be a psyker and LD 10 "For the Purposes of..." that specifically disallows the vehicle from being a psyker all the time.

Out of the two possible ways this can be read:
Is the vehicle a psyker for the purpose of using psychic powers?

BRB p. 50
"Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn."

1) Psykers can use 1 power.
2) To use it successfully the psyker must pass a psychic test.

1) For the purpoes of using a psychic power, how many psychic powers can
the vehicle use? 0 None are allowed in RAW according to this interpretation - if it is a psyker only for the sake of psychic tests and hoods.
2) For no purposes other than taking psychic tests and hoods is it a psyker, so too bad it doesn't get to use any powers per turn.

Unless it is a psyker for the purpose of determining how many psychic powers it can use per turn, it can use 0.

Obviously the rule must be read:
1) The vehicle is a psyker Mastery level 1
..but it has no leadership, how will we deal with that?
2) Leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods.
...but how will it handle perils of the warp?
"..treat it as a glancing hit"

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

wow, your side changes its argument to fight tooth and nail. he said its affects lower case psyker and draigo is a uppercase psyker.

ninjaed

I never picked a side in the upper or lower case p crap so youre grasping at straws.

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Necronlord - "No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability."

It is if your rules, that GIVE you the Psyker rule, states that you are a psyker for 2 purposes - which is the entire point.

Your statement is demonstrably false

Saying you are a Psyker means you are a psyker always
Saying you are a Psyker for the purposes of X and Y means you are only a Psyker for those two purposes, and no others.

Which is what the rule actually says - you are a psyker for just 2 purposes, tests and hoods. Nothing more, nothing less

Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

Wow. Just wow. "Moronic" doesnt even cover how utterly stupid that accusation has made you look. Keep going, I think you have some credibility left to lose!

I've posted actual rules - how the sentence reads, which is a rule because the book is writtne in English (British English, specifically). You appear to think "psyker" is a unit type - when it isnt. You seem to think that a sentence explicitly designed to give something a rule only occasionally (psyker) doesnt actually say that, and have resorted to insults, belittling others, and now asserting one of the most laughably stupid statements I've seen on Dakka - maybe you should just quit the thread? It cant be good for your blood pressure.

NemesorDave has this one. The rule, if read in a strict but incorrect way, makes the vehicle a psyker for 'psychic tests and psychic hoods.' It is not a psyker for any other purpose, such as using a power.

Before you take a psychic test, you must declare you are using a psychic power, and which psychic power in the case you have more than one. Under the strict and incorrect reading, the vehicle can not do this, as it is not a psyker.

DevianID wrote:the vehicle can not do this, as it is not a psyker.

You're imagining that requirement.

So rigeld, a vehicle which is not a psyker CAN decide to use a psychic power?

DevianID wrote:So rigeld, a vehicle which is not a psyker CAN decide to use a psychic power?

Yes.

90% of them dont have one to use, however.

Quote?

Page 21 in the GK codex, its under "Psychic Pilot" and has been quoted in this thread many times.

for the purposes of the Psychic test, it is a psyker.

The Psychic test is how you determine if the power succeeds or fails.

DeathReaper wrote:Page 21 in the GK codex, its under "Psychic Pilot" and has been quoted in this thread many times.

for the purposes of the Psychic test, it is a psyker.

The Psychic test is how you determine if the power succeeds or fails.

you keep restructuring the sentence to change it, what it says if your a psyker and (which breaks the sentence ) have Ld 10 for test

DK wrote:you keep restructuring the sentence to change it, what it says if your a psyker and (which breaks the sentence ) have Ld 10 for test

Back at ya. and does not break the sentence.

and/and/
Conjunction:
Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly: "bread and butter".

I will give you the quote verbatim, you can play "Find the comma":

''A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.''

No break in that sentence at all. A comma is required to break that sentence into two different parts.

Since there is no comma, the clause "for the purposes of" applies to the whole sentence.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you keep restructuring the sentence to change it, what it says if your a psyker and (which breaks the sentence ) have Ld 10 for test

Back at ya. and does not break the sentence.

and/and/
Conjunction:
Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly: "bread and butter".

you realize that bread and butter is ref two diffrent things right? because unless you say bread with butter on it, you are taking bread and butter as diffrent items. now if ur refering the taste of bread and butter thats diffrent because its one name.

anyway, eat this
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/436847.page#4038716

nosferatu1001 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Necronlord - "No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability."

It is if your rules, that GIVE you the Psyker rule, states that you are a psyker for 2 purposes - which is the entire point.

Your statement is demonstrably false

Saying you are a Psyker means you are a psyker always
Saying you are a Psyker for the purposes of X and Y means you are only a Psyker for those two purposes, and no others.

Which is what the rule actually says - you are a psyker for just 2 purposes, tests and hoods. Nothing more, nothing less

Okay back to the Nos profile I see. You are just so completely wrong and have yet to site any rules under any profile. Keep going till they lock this.

Wow. Just wow. "Moronic" doesnt even cover how utterly stupid that accusation has made you look. Keep going, I think you have some credibility left to lose!

I've posted actual rules - how the sentence reads, which is a rule because the book is writtne in English (British English, specifically). You appear to think "psyker" is a unit type - when it isnt. You seem to think that a sentence explicitly designed to give something a rule only occasionally (psyker) doesnt actually say that, and have resorted to insults, belittling others, and now asserting one of the most laughably stupid statements I've seen on Dakka - maybe you should just quit the thread? It cant be good for your blood pressure.

Wow, just openly name calling now. Really doing yourself credit. I think we all know who is presenting a better reasoned argument without attacking the poster per the Tenents of YMDC.

DK wrote:you realize that bread and butter is ref two diffrent things right? because unless you say bread with butter on it, you are taking bread and butter as diffrent items. now if ur refering the taste of bread and butter thats diffrent because its one name.

You read the example and assume it disproves my point, without reading the definition?

anyway, eat this
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/436847.page#4038716

That's cute.

Your point is moot. GW is going to update the FAQ with "Q: Do Mindstrike Missiles work against GK Vehicles? A: No, in fact we didn't mean to include the Mindstrike Missiles. You can act like they don't exist in the codex."

See what I did there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:Wow, just openly name calling now. Really doing yourself credit. I think we all know who is presenting a better reasoned argument without attacking the poster per the Tenents of YMDC.

Are you still under the impression that nos and I are the same poster?