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DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

you realize necronlord3 and I have said has a pg, @draigo you are the one that has yet to show anything but a misinterpreted line out of the gk book, and in thst line means a break. because English would have worded "he is a psyker that has ld10 for the psychic test only."

It doesn't have to include the word only. The fact that 40k is a permissive rules set means that unless it says "for everything" it's not for everything.

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

you realize necronlord3 and I have said has a pg, @draigo you are the one that has yet to show anything but a misinterpreted line out of the gk book, and in thst line means a break. because English would have worded "he is a psyker that has ld10 for the psychic test only."

No I brought up the henchman and the rule in the codex.

The only thing you and necron say is look at the brb. Codex does trump brb otherwise no armies speacial rules would matter. As I also brought up in the personal teleporter dk example.

Draigo wrote:Codex does trump brb otherwise no armies speacial rules would matter

No, specific trumps general. In most cases, that will lead to the rule in the codex beating the rule in the BRB, but it also applies to rules in the BRB beating other rules in the BRB, and some cases rules in the BRB beating rules in a Codex.

In what case has the brb trumped a codex speacial rule?

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Try reading my response the first time you referenced this entirely incorrect analogy. If you want to ignore page 39 of the BrB referencing taking save during assaults, lmk.

On topic all of you arguing for the upper and lower case reference to Psykers. Read mind strike missiles it says it effects psykers LOWER CASE. The rules for Psychic Pilot makes a vehicles a psyker mastery level 1, also LOWERCASE. So would you like to argue that mind strike missiles don't effect Draigo, Mephiston, Librarians?

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Try reading my response the first time you referenced this entirely incorrect analogy. If you want to ignore page 39 of the BrB referencing taking save during assaults, lmk.

Right. It tells you to reference shooting.
Psychic powers are Psychic powers. You look up the rules for those. They exist on page 50. There is nothing preventing the use of those rules.

On topic all of you arguing for the upper and lower case reference to Psykers. Read mind strike missiles it says it effects psykers LOWER CASE. The rules for Psychic Pilot makes a vehicles a psyker mastery level 1, also LOWERCASE. So would you like to argue that mind strike missiles don't effect Draigo, Mephiston, Librarians?

The rules for Psychic Pilot make him a psyker (1) for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods.
The upper/lowercase has nothing to do with this.

Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

Draigo wrote:Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

1) In the BRB p.50 there are rules for psykers.

Under the main Psyker heading:
"Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn."

Under Perils of the warp: "...the psyker suffers 1 wound with no armour or cover saves allowd."

Under Psychic shooting attacks: "So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit..."

There are no rules for non-psykers to use psychic powers.

2) Grammatically the comma is option. The lack of a comma does not indicate which way the rule is meant to be read. It is grammatically correct either way.

This could be read:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker.
A vehicle with this special rule is Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

This is not definitive, but the lack of a comma does not restrict this interpretation as possibly being correct.

3) Only psykers are required to take psychic tests. BRB p. 50
"To use a pschic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test.

Someone could disprove this point if they can show anywhere that anyone other than a psyker must pass a Psychic test to use a psychic power.

4) If the vehicle wasn't a psyker for all purposes, it would not have to take a psychic test and could never suffer Perils:

the rules for Psychic tests are only defined for psykers.

5) i know this is YMDC and you may disregard this point but isn't the name of the power enough of a clue?
Psychic Pilot! The vehicle is treated as a psyker (level 1) because the pilot is the psyker! He doesn't flip the psykic switch on the dashboard, he is the psyker! Born that way! He psychically triggers the vehicles psycho-reactive armour plating.

It's clear, this rule is intended for vehicles with the Psykic Pilot rule to be counted as psykers (Mastery Level 1).

Draigo wrote:Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

wow, your side changes its argument to fight tooth and nail. he said its affects lower case psyker and draigo is a uppercase psyker.

ninjaed

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Try reading my response the first time you referenced this entirely incorrect analogy. If you want to ignore page 39 of the BrB referencing taking save during assaults, lmk.

Right. It tells you to reference shooting.
Psychic powers are Psychic powers. You look up the rules for those. They exist on page 50. There is nothing preventing the use of those rules.

On topic all of you arguing for the upper and lower case reference to Psykers. Read mind strike missiles it says it effects psykers LOWER CASE. The rules for Psychic Pilot makes a vehicles a psyker mastery level 1, also LOWERCASE. So would you like to argue that mind strike missiles don't effect Draigo, Mephiston, Librarians?

The rules for Psychic Pilot make him a psyker (1) for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods.
The upper/lowercase has nothing to do with this.

Pg 39 specifically tells you how to take saves in CC in the same way as in the shooting section. You are eroding any credibility you might have making this statement.

No Psychic Pilot makes him psyker (mastery lv1) and Leadership 10 for Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods, no where does it makes ANY exclusions to being a Psyker at any time.

NecronLord3 wrote:No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

P.46 BA codex "Psyker: A Blood Angels Librarian is a psyker, as described in the 40k rulebook,..."

your argument is invalid.

the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

Well said Nemesor Dave.


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DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

P.46 BA codex "Psyker: A Blood Angels Librarian is a psyker, as described in the 40k rulebook,..."

your argument is invalid.

Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)


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Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

NecronLord3 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

P.46 BA codex "Psyker: A Blood Angels Librarian is a psyker, as described in the 40k rulebook,..."

your argument is invalid.

Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)

Psykers follow the rules on P.50 in the BRB so your argument here is still invalid.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

It tells us what the vehicle is (a psyker and LD10), then it explains the situations in which they are a psyker and LD10.

They are a psyker for the purposes of...

They are LD 10 for the purposes of...

"For the purposes of" applies to the entire sentence, not just the LD 10 part. that is not the right way to read the sentence.

The sentance IS exclusive because this is a permissive rule set.

If the rule didn't have any restrictions it would fall under the general restrictions which apply to psykers, however since it says "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" it automatically places the restriction of it only being a psyker in those cases.

It would have to be a completely unrestricted sentance for it to be able to be correctly interpreted otherwise.

NecronLord3 wrote:Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)

The Psyker special rule refers to the Psyker section of the rule book, which uses the lowercase reference. You're really reaching here.

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

Not. In. A. Permissive. Rules. Set.

You're only allowed to do what you're told. You are told he's a Psyker for 2 purposes. You are not told he's always a Psyker. Therefore he is not always a Psyker.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)

The Psyker special rule refers to the Psyker section of the rule book, which uses the lowercase reference. You're really reaching here.

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

Not. In. A. Permissive. Rules. Set.

You're only allowed to do what you're told. You are told he's a Psyker for 2 purposes. You are not told he's always a Psyker. Therefore he is not always a Psyker.

I'm not the one making the BS argument about upper and lower case Psykers. I've read the rule, Psykes are psykers there is no difference. Your side is arguing differently.

You ARE told he is a Psyker. Rules effecting Psykers effect Pschic pilots it is a.given permission in the permissive rules set. You are told how a vehicle goes about casting his Psychic powers and perils test because there is no permission for vehicles to do so in the Psyker section of the BrB, pg 50.

Where does it say Draigo is always a Psyker?

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm not the one making the BS argument about upper and lower case Psykers. I've read the rule, Psykes are psykers there is no difference. Your side is arguing differently.

All Psykers are psykers, not all psykers are Psykers.

You ARE told he is a Psyker. Rules effecting Psykers effect Pschic pilots it is a.given permission in the permissive rules set. You are told how a vehicle goes about casting his Psychic powers and perils test because there is no permission for vehicles to do so in the Psyker section of the BrB, pg 50.

You are told it's a Psyker for some situations.
Because there's a limit on the situations it's a Psyker, it is not a Psyker for all situations.

Where does it say Draigo is always a Psyker?

The Psyker special rule with no caveats.

Psyker henchmen do NOT have the psyker rule is what rigeld2 is getting at with that I believe.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm not the one making the BS argument about upper and lower case Psykers. I've read the rule, Psykes are psykers there is no difference. Your side is arguing differently.

All Psykers are psykers, not all psykers are Psykers.

You ARE told he is a Psyker. Rules effecting Psykers effect Pschic pilots it is a.given permission in the permissive rules set. You are told how a vehicle goes about casting his Psychic powers and perils test because there is no permission for vehicles to do so in the Psyker section of the BrB, pg 50.

You are told it's a Psyker for some situations.
Because there's a limit on the situations it's a Psyker, it is not a Psyker for all situations.

Where does it say Draigo is always a Psyker?

The Psyker special rule with no caveats.

You are not told they are Psykers for some situations. You are told they are psyker (mastery lvl 1) AND LD10 for psychic tests and psychic hoods. This is in addition to the first part of the sentence. The second part is to explain how a unit with no leadership value can cast psychic powers and take tests, since units without a leadership value would, in a normal case, not be able to fulfill the requirements on pg 50 of the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Permissive ruleset does not say that MSM effect units with the Psyker special rule.

Grey Templar wrote:Psyker henchmen do NOT have the psyker rule is what rigeld2 is getting at with that I believe.

And MSM do not target units with the Psyker special rule, they target psykers, which is what all units using Psychic abilities are.

NecronLord3 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Psyker henchmen do NOT have the psyker rule is what rigeld2 is getting at with that I believe.

And MSM do not target units with the Psyker special rule, they target psykers, which is what all units using Pschic abilities are.

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

OK.

Eldar codex wrote:Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between X and Y Farseer psychic powers.
Warlock Powers" Each Warlock is a psyker and may be given X Warlock powers at the point cost listed.

Happyjew wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

OK.

Eldar codex wrote:Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between X and Y Farseer psychic powers.
Warlock Powers" Each Warlock is a psyker and may be given X Warlock powers at the point cost listed.

"A Farseer is a psyker..."

Just guessing, I think this means a Farseer is a psyker.

Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

I can see you have capitalized one over the other, but your argument is not as obvious as you may think it is. Perhaps explain?

I'll take this opportunity to quote BRB p50. 2nd paragraph first two sentences.

"Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pas..."

Perhaps you can explain in your view which one this is about; Psykers, psykers or PSYKERS (as in the title of the page)?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

You mean having a wound characteristic and causing a wound? Both of those are specifically covered in the BrB. Show me the section on non-Psykers using psychic powers?

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

You mean having a wound characteristic and causing a wound? Both of those are specifically covered in the BrB. Show me the section on non-Psykers using psychic powers?

Do you have an example of what you're trying prove or should I comb through the entire BRB looking to prove your point that I'm not entirely sure of?

Edit meaning Rigeld2 of course. I believe he should provide his own quotes to prove his point about wound and Wound if it is even relevant.