Mindstrike Missiles Vs Grey Knight Vehicles

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**Mannahnin**

As a general reminder:

**MajorTom11**

As my esteemed colleague suggests -

This is the third time we have had to come in here to settle things down today. Those of you who have been posting in here for pages on end, time to quit. You are clearly not going to agree anytime soon and you are monopolizing this thread with your arguments.

Take your back and forth to PMs if you want to continue by all means, but it time for you to let other people post in this thread, people who would like to speak about this in a civil and non-aggressive manner.

If you think this message may be addressing you personally, it likely is. Move along.

DK

ok, im willing to say your side wins on the notion that words are literal...that also means inv sv cannot be tanken vs clensing flame and crows cf ings inv sv because hit cc attacks rend on a 4+, and the faq says cf is a cc attack. is this right as well?

**rigeld2**

DK wrote:ok, im willing to say your side wins on the notion that words are literal...that also means inv sv cannot be tanken vs clensing flame and crows cf ings inv sv because hit cc attacks rend on a 4+, and the faq says cf is a cc attack. is this right as well?

No.

Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, but you do not roll "to wound" with it (which is how you Rend). It wounds on a 4+. Different things.

And why would an invulnerable save not work vs Cleansing Flame?

Also, please don't abbreviate so much - it makes your posts hard to read.

**Grey Templar**

rogueeyes wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
rogueeyes wrote:A dreadnought is not considered a psyker for purposes of a force weapon.

It is if you read the Psychic Pilot rule on P.21 of the GK codex.

Since activating a force weapon requires a psychic test.

If you don't activate the instagib ability it is still a force weapon, but that does not matter as all unactivated force weapons do is ignore armor saves, which the doomfist, being a DCCW, does anyway on merit of it being a DCCW.

If you read the force weapons rule in the rulebook you are required to be a psyker in order to get this extra power. If you are not a psyker for the purpose of a force weapon then you do not have this power thus can never activate a force weapon.

Plus you have the entire point of a DCCW wrong. A DCCW ignores armor saves - it does not cause instant death. It does if the S is double the T of the target but not on T6 and higher models. My argument even stated that you would be able to cast the psychic power to activate the force weapon f you were considered to be psyker for the purpose of the force weapon which confers upon you the psychc power to activate a force weapon.

My argument again:
You must be a psyker in order to be granted a psychic power from a force weapon.
Psychic pilot does not grant you the ability to be a psyker for the purposes of a force weapon.
Thus you do not have the psychic power to cast to activate the force weapon.
Thus you can never use your force weapon.

Now if you look at my original argument that you are always a psyker and that you are leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods then this argument allows you to have the power to activate your force weapon. Because of a logical error and ambiguous grammar you can attribute the predicate of the sentence to all of the combined sentence. The sentence can be broken into multiple parts:

A Vehicle with this special rule
- This clarifies that it is only attributable to vehicles so if any other model has this rule it doesn't get any benefit from it.
is treated as a psyker (Mastery level 1)
- this states that the model is treated as a psyker
and Leadership 10
- this is giving a leadership value to the model
for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods
-This clarifies when the model has the leadership 10 value.

When creating an argument you must be able to create the argument forwards and backwards and logically be able to gain the same conclusion. The issue is that the clause for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is being attributed to the entire sentence before rather than just the individual subject that come before.

My argument against being able to use force weapons syncs up with the psychic pilot rule and forces dreadnoughts not to use force weapons because they are not considered psykers for the purpose of force weapons precluding them from having the psychic power to cast.

Psychic Pilot says "...for the purposes of Psychic Tests..."

Force Weapons are activated with a Psychic Test.

It seems legal for a Dreadnought to use his Doomfist.

DK

Well to me it would appear that this has turned into a "vs gk" topic since everything is an attempt to nurf them. so im out.

**nosferatu1001**

Again with the persecution complex.....

I play GK, and I say (and with rules support) that you are wrong.

Dont make it a :theyre all against us" situation, when it isnt - youre assuming other people are biased in their reading of rules, which is not only wrong but very, very rude and unlikely to make you a popular figure here.

DK

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again with the persecution complex.....

I play GK, and I say (and with rules support) that you are wrong.

Dont make it a :theyre all against us" situation, when it isnt - youre assuming other people are biased in their reading of rules, which is not only wrong but very, very rude and unlikely to make you a popular figure here.

popular? its a forum.

I have played gk since the old codex, and since the new codex have played more games then I can remember, so hearing a vehicle is "sometimes" a psyker sounds crazy, se we agree to disagree. Thats it.

**rigeld2**

DK wrote:Well to me it would appear that this has turned into a "vs gk" topic since everything is an attempt to nurf them. so im out.

Please explain where I've said anything that would indicate that.
If that's how my posts come across, I apologize.

I absolutely try and leave any bias I have - for or against - at the door, and I think I do a good job.
All I'm arguing is rules.

**Draigo**

DK wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Again with the persecution complex.....

I play GK, and I say (and with rules support) that you are wrong.

Dont make it a :theyre all against us" situation, when it isnt - youre assuming other people are biased in their reading of rules, which is not only wrong but very, very rude and unlikely to make you a popular figure here.

popular? its a forum.

I have played gk since the old codex, and since the new codex have played more games then I can remember, so hearing a vehicle is "sometimes" a psyker sounds crazy, se we agree to disagree. Thats it.

What does the dh codex have to do with this? I also find it odd that you accuse others who play gk they're persecuting the gk. lol

**nosferatu1001**

DK - popular as in "people can be bothered to listen to your points", as opposed to dismissing you out of hand as not worth the time to respond to. Its why most people post on a forum after all..

You're not the only one to have played GKs for a looong time, and given the entire codex was written to limit the number of psykers around at anyone point, it shouldnt be a shock.

DK

Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

**rigeld2**

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

... Okay?
And we've shown that dreadnaughts are able to use force weapons - they're Psykers for the purposes of psychic tests, and activating a force weapon is a psychic test.

But if you just want to stop posting altogether, that's up to you.

**Draigo**

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

Making ignorant blanket statements don't make you sound better. You've just been condescending from the get go so don't let the door hit you on the way out.

DK

Draigo wrote:
DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

Making ignorant blanket statements don't make you sound better. You've just been condescending from the get go so don't let the door hit you on the way out.

im still waitting on where the other governing rules are for psykers that lets a psyker not be a psyker all the ti e, but this is such a rare situation and it has recived 7pgs of fighting. Other then gk vs gk this could only really happen if you hit your own rhino with a msm. If you do that just bow your head in shame and roll a glance hit on ur rhino.

**Iranna**

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

You don't need a page reference, it's quite clear: Psyker and psyker.

Furthermore, just because you don't agree with other posters' opinions you don't need to take a strop; differences in opinions are why this Sub-Forum exists. Grammar plays a very important role in determining the meaning of things as one apostrophe or comma can change the entire meaning in a sentence.

Again, Dreadnoughts can activate Force Weapons because they "count as Psykers for the purposes of Psychic Tests..." and Force weapons require a Psychic Test to use.

Iranna.

DK

This is like the Bible, thats why there is so many religion off the basis of one book thats has been translated so many times. so again, agree to disagree. this whole argument is based on opinion and interpretation not fact.

**NecronLord3**

Iranna wrote:
DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

You don't need a page reference, it's quite clear: Psyker and psyker.

Iranna.

Please site a page for this rule you are referencing to the different types of Psykers?

Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

**Grey Templar**

NecronLord3 wrote:
Iranna wrote:
DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

You don't need a page reference, it's quite clear: Psyker and psyker.

Iranna.

Please site a page for this rule you are referencing to the different types of Psykers?

There is the model in the GK codex called a Psyker which is a model that can make up henchmen squads.

Then there are models with the Psyker special rule.

**IcyCool**

DK wrote:tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

Well, in a rules discussion, it is important to read what the rules actually say. So yes, grammar, spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure are all important.

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

And as for your "vs. GK" contention, how exactly is "Psychic Pilot vehicles are unaffected by Mind Strike Missiles" in any way against GK? Doesn't it actually increase their power?

**rigeld2**

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

The have Psychic powers. I wonder if there's a rule on how to use them.
Oh there is! What happens if I roll a 2 or 12 on that test? Oh there's a rule for that!

The section it's in doesn't matter. There's no restriction to psychic powers only ever being used by Psykers.

**NecronLord3**

IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

The have Psychic powers. I wonder if there's a rule on how to use them.
Oh there is! What happens if I roll a 2 or 12 on that test? Oh there's a rule for that!

The section it's in doesn't matter. There's no restriction to psychic powers only ever being used by Psykers.

Yes there is pg. 50 BrB rules for casting psychic powers, and taking perils tests.

**rigeld2**

NecronLord3 wrote:Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

There is no rule that says that.

Yes there is pg. 50 BrB rules for casting psychic powers, and taken perils tests.

Nothing, at all, in those rules restricts them to only Psykers.

**Grey Templar**

NecronLord3 wrote:
IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

Ordinarily yes, but Psychic Pilot specifically gives permission for the Dreadnought to be a Psyker for using psychic powers. Of which a force weapon is one of them.

**NecronLord3**

rigeld2 wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

There is no rule that says that.

Yes there is pg. 50 BrB rules for casting psychic powers, and taken perils tests.

Nothing, at all, in those rules restricts them to only Psykers.

Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:
IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

Ordinarily yes, but Psychic Pilot specifically gives permission for the Dreadnought to be a Psyker for using psychic powers. Of which a force weapon is one of them.

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

**Draigo**

@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

DK

what necronlord3 said

**Grey Templar**

Actually it does, thats the topic this thread has been on about.

"The vehicle is treated as a Psyker and is Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods"

This clearly says it is a psyker for Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods only. If they had meant for it to be a psyker for all purposes they would have omitted "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods"

as it is, the sentance is all inclusive for the circumstances where the vehicle is a psyker. It is only a psyker when taking a psychic test or when psychic hoods are involved. if anything effects psykers at the points where those things happen it will effect them, but otherwise the dreadnought is not a psyker.

So SitW, RoW, the Wolf thingys SW have, and Psychic Hoods may act as normal. Everything else doesn't work because when they are activated the vehicle isn't a psyker.

**rigeld2**

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

DK

Draigo wrote:@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

you realize necronlord3 and I have said has a pg, @draigo you are the one that has yet to show anything but a misinterpreted line out of the gk book, and in thst line means a break. because English would have worded "he is a psyker that has ld10 for the psychic test only."