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I have to agree with everything Nos and DeathReaper have said, it's pretty easy to understand in my opinion.

Furthermore, a 'Psyker' and a 'psyker' are not the same thing, as many others have stated.

My feeble attempt to clarify this:

'Psyker' with capital P is a Proper Noun, reffering to the rule 'Psyker' in the rulebook.

'psyker' in lower case, is a noun and reffers to models or units who may use psychic powers.

A model described as a 'psyker' can still use Psychic Powers (i.e the Warlock), provided they pass a psychic test, however, they do not need to have the 'Psyker' special rule in order to do so.

So the rhino, which is treated as a Psyker for 2 specific instances. Therfore, has the Psyker rule in those instances only, in any other circumstance, the vehicle is not a Psyker.

I never want to see the word (P/p)syker again.

Iranna.

Iranna, I don't mid the word psyker or Psyker. I don't want to see Psycher or psycher again.

Happyjew wrote:OK so we know how psyKers use psychic powers. But that still doesn't prove that you have to be a psyKer to use psychic powers. As was pointed out, Inquisitorial Psykers are not psyKers nor have the special rule PsyKer, but they can still use psychic powers.

Show me the section of any book that says you can cast psychic powers without being a Psycher. The rules for casting and perils cannot be used without the rules covered in the section of the BrB for
Psychers.

Do what you want but if you argue my GK abilities don't work against your unit using Psychic powers then I'm going to argue that you can't cast them or roll for psychic test either. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

Fair enough, as the only units I use with psychic powers don't need to roll to use them, they are always active. I love my Warlocks...

Iranna wrote:I have to agree with everything Nos and DeathReaper have said, it's pretty easy to understand in my opinion.

Furthermore, a 'Psyker' and a 'psyker' are not the same thing, as many others have stated.

My feeble attempt to clarify this:

'Psyker' with capital P is a Proper Noun, reffering to the rule 'Psyker' in the rulebook.

'psyker' in lower case, is a noun and reffers to models or units who may use psychic powers.

A model described as a 'psyker' can still use Psychic Powers (i.e the Warlock), provided they pass a psychic test, however, they do not need to have the 'Psyker' special rule in order to do so.

So the rhino, which is treated as a Psyker for 2 specific instances. Therfore, has the Psyker rule in those instances only, in any other circumstance, the vehicle is not a Psyker.

I never want to see the word (P/p)syker again.

Iranna.

So Draigo's Titansword only effects Inq. Psychers. As his sword refers to the capitalized proper noun.

Or anyone with the Psyker special rule. We can't prove it one way or the other, however, technically, anyone who does not have the Psyker special rule, or is an Inq. Psyker won't be affected.

I would not be surprised however, if when the next Eldar codex comes out, Farseers and Warlocks have the Psyker special rule.

Happyjew wrote:Or anyone with the Psyker special rule. We can't prove it one way or the other, however, technically, anyone who does not have the Psyker special rule, or is an Inq. Psyker won't be affected.

I would not be surprised however, if when the next Eldar codex comes out, Farseers and Warlocks have the Psyker special rule.

Or if the 6th edition BrB, clarifies in more detail anyone using Psychic abilities is a Psycher(since that doesn't seem to be clear to some people per the current rule book.)

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword only effects Inq. Psychers. As his sword refers to the capitalized proper noun.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

That's a misquote by the way - I never said that.

The Titansword works on Daemons and Psykers.
Since Psyker could mean either the henchman unit (unlikely) or the Special Rule (likely) it really should be FAQed.
Without an FAQ I'd say it does not affect the Inq. Psykers.

Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psykers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psykers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psyker. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psyker.

Really simple.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psychers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psychers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psycher. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psycher.

Really simple.

NO read the codex. Codexes trump brb. It says that they are only psykers when doing specific activities and for the love of god quick typing psycher. It's psyker. lol

So because the only part on how to take saves is in the shooting section, you only take saves against shooting attacks, and not cc attacks?

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psychers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psychers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psycher. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psycher.

Really simple.

NO read the codex. Codexes trump brb. It says that they are only psykers when doing specific activities and for the love of god quick typing psycher. It's psyker. lol

No such rule, specific trumps general. However this is covered in the BrB all Psyker units are governed by the rules in the BrB. More specific rules are covered in each codex, however the are still beholden to the original root entry in the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Auto-correct on my iPad has been altering my "Psykers".

NecronLord3 wrote:No such rule, specific trumps general. However this is covered in the BrB all Psyker units are governed by the rules in the BrB. More specific rules are covered in each codex, however the are still beholden to the original root entry in the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Auto-correct on my iPad has been altering my "Psykers".

Page 74 actually, that was just from a quick glance through the BRB.

Then how does a dk move like a jump infantry with a jump pack and not go inside a sr now? Oh thats right the CODEX says so.

Happyjew wrote:So because the only part on how to take saves is in the shooting section, you only take saves against shooting attacks, and not cc attacks?

Only if you ignore page 39. Taking saves, covered in the assault section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:Then how does a dk move like a jump infantry with a jump pack and not go inside a sr now? Oh thats right the CODEX says so.

Specific vs. general and was coved in an FAQ, as it was debatable.

Q: Personal teleporters make the unit with them jump infantry. How does this affect a Dreadknight with a personal teleporter? (p28) A: It is a monstrous creature that moves like jump infantry

Automatically Appended Next Post:

itsonlyme wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No such rule, specific trumps general. However this is covered in the BrB all Psyker units are governed by the rules in the BrB. More specific rules are covered in each codex, however the are still beholden to the original root entry in the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Auto-correct on my iPad has been altering my "Psykers".

Page 74 actually, that was just from a quick glance through the BRB.

That references USR. A specific rule.

This is specific since there are only 2 units being disputed and in the rules says ONLY when using their power are they a psyker. That rule excludes them from being mindstrike target.

Draigo wrote:This is specific since there are only 2 units being disputed and in the rules says ONLY when using their power are they a psyker. That rule excludes them from being mindstrike target.

Farseers? Warlocks? Paladins? GKs? IG Psykers?

Paladins have brotherhood of psyker rule that explains how it works for them.

Ok after this last post it's clear you havent read the gk codex because the other gk, pallies etc have their rule spelled out.




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We are not discussin the eldar, ig etc. We are discussing ONLY gk and their rules spells out that they are only psykers when using their ability.

Draigo wrote:Paladins have brotherhood of psyker rule that explains how it works for them.

Ok after this last post it's clear you havent read the gk codex because the other gk, pallies etc have their rule spelled out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are not discussin the eldar, ig etc. We are discussing ONLY gk and their rules spells out that they are only psykers when using their ability.

Haven't read it? My Hundereds of dollars of GK units would disagree.

You may only be discussing GK. We are not. So you want to argue that GK's are only Psykers when using their abilities now too?

One of the other GK players who pretty much has all the rules of all the Codexes laughed at the very concept of your argument this past weekend.

GK very clearly cover how to account for Perils of the Warp tests in the GK Codex and which model to resolve the Perils test, but none having the Psycher Special rule, by your argument would need to take the effects of Mindstrike missiles anyway.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Paladins have brotherhood of psyker rule that explains how it works for them.

Ok after this last post it's clear you havent read the gk codex because the other gk, pallies etc have their rule spelled out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are not discussin the eldar, ig etc. We are discussing ONLY gk and their rules spells out that they are only psykers when using their ability.

Haven't read it? My Hundereds of dollars of GK units would disagree.

You may only be discussing GK. We are not. So you want to argue that GK's are only Psykers when using their abilities now too?

One of the other GK players who pretty much has all the rules of all the Codexes laughed at the very concept of your argument this past weekend.

GK very clearly cover how to account for Perils of the Warp tests in the GK Codex and which model to resolve the Perils test, but none having the Psycher Special rule, by your argument would need to take the effects of Mindstrike missiles anyway.

That's because when they wrote the codex only those with a psyker level were actually always psykers and those other you mention were psykers when using a rule like activating a force weapon. I also don't care about the laughing man since he is not here.

So how does your club run psyk out grenades? Do they affect dreadnaughts? Do you have them affect the entire squad? How exactly do you cherry pick which rules are allowed? I also doubt you have gk or read the codex since you made such a silly statement but left out botp rule.

Draigo wrote:
So how does your club run psyk out grenades? Do they affect dreadnaughts? Do you have them affect the entire squad?

Yes

isnt it as simple as taking a psychic test means your a psyker?
otherwise, how do you use the power at all in the first place?

DK wrote:Wait...source of where it says a P/psyker has to have a Ld value?

Psykers do not need a leadership value. In order to use a psychic power you must take a leadership test which then requires a leadership value.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Let's go back to the offending sentence:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

If we can reasonably break that sentence into two self-contained sentences, then we can reasonably assume that the "and" is being used here to join two separate concepts:

Sentence 1: 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).'

Sentence 2: 'Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Doesn't work. You need one sentence. It's all one idea.

The vehicle DOESN'T have the Psyker special rule, importantly. It is treated as being a Psyker, and as being Leadership 10, for two named purposes, and only for those two named purposes: Psychic tests and psychic hoods. You can't extrapolate beyond that.

Just chopping a sentence in half does not mean you correctly created an argument. You have to take all of the parts of the sentence and sentence structure into account which is the predicate and what it actually pertains to. The predicate in this case is for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods and the argument centers around if it applies to being a psyker (mastery level 1) and/or Leadership 10. Correct grammar states that it is ambiguous and can be for the last or for both areas.

There is also an argument about the DE wargear piece and also force weapons. The DE piece I'm not familiar with.

The force weapons argument states:
That force weapons are used by trained psykers. - This is argued to be fluff but is also in the rules.
Force weapons grant the user a psychic power.
If you are not a psyker for purposes of a force weapon you are not granted that power thus cannot activate the force weapon.

DE wargear states that psykers that a leadership test and removed if something or other and if no leadership they are removed.
GK psychic pilots are only leadership 10 for psychic powers and psychic hoods thus they are auto removed.

Really the argument comes down to is a vehicle a psyker all the time or only for the clause stated in the subject above.

The subject is vehicle.
The modifier to the subject is psyker
The modifier to the subject is leadership 10.
The clause is for the purposes of ...

Basically the AND either makes it a list of modifiers or combines two separate sentences into a single complex sentence when the second sentence has a clause on the modifier to the subject. In your argument you left out the subject in the second sentence and acted like they were a combined sentence rather than a complex sentence.

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psychers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psychers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psycher. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psycher.

Really simple.

NO read the codex. Codexes trump brb. It says that they are only psykers when doing specific activities and for the love of god quick typing psycher. It's psyker. lol

Codex does not trump BRB. Specific trumps general.

Force weapons are listed under Psyker rules. Force weapons grant the user a psychic ability. In order to use the psychic ability you must be a psyker because you must use the psychic rules listed on the Psykers page in the BRB. If you are near a tyranid you must replace these rules with those in the Tyranid codex because they are more specific then the ones in the BRB and it states exactly how that is done - on 3D6.

It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

It says they are psykers when doing the test. That it. Split hairs but they only do tests when using their power.

Draigo wrote:

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

It says they are psykers when doing the test. That it. Split hairs but they only do tests when using their power.

thats not what it says, it says they are psykers (mastery level 1) and have ld 10 for the test, read mastery level 1 also. your adding words and changing the emphasis on words to sound the way you want.

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

It says they are psykers when doing the test. That it. Split hairs but they only do tests when using their power.

thats not what it says, it says they are psykers (mastery level 1) and have ld 10 for the test, read mastery level 1 also. your adding words and changing the emphasis on words to sound the way you want.

No Im reading and typing the henchmans rule.

As far as the vehicle it just says they have psychoactive plating and use the power. PG 33 never says they become psykers.

In the FAQ they clarify what a Daemon is because it became a question, this group seems to be the only one that has need for a what is a Psyker question answered. since no one else has this problem.