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Draigo wrote:So dk do you treat LoC as psyker since they use psyker err sorcery? lol They have a ld score all the time.

everything in the Chaos Daemons book is listed as gifts so they are not psychic abilities. so no

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

Im still waitting for you to get me a pg number, without said pg number showing your point your argument is void and is inadmissible to the Emperor and will be thrown out. You Trolling at this point.

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

SO then what about the henchman? The sanction psyker does not have the rule listed. How do they use psychic barrage by that logic? They aren't in the CD codex so if they aren't powers what are they?

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

False.
All Psykers can use Psychic abilities.
Not all users of Psychic abilities are Psykers.

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

SO then what about the henchman? The sanction psyker does not have the rule listed. How do they use psychic barrage by that logic? They aren't in the CD codex so if they aren't powers what are they?

they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers, so they are a single psyker if they have to take a test, like that DE thing that makes you take a test on 3d6, but if hit by msm its hit as different units.

DK wrote:they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers

Rules citation please.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

False.
All Psykers can use Psychic abilities.
Not all users of Psychic abilities are Psykers.

Name calling is not allowed on Dakka. Attack the arguement, not the person. MT11, still waiting on a Pg number and a unit that is not a psyker that uses a psychic ability.

DK wrote:Im still waitting for you to get me a pg number, without said pg number showing your point your argument is void and is inadmissible to the Emperor and will be thrown out. You Trolling at this point.

It's on the same page that shows how English sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation work. Your inability to understand that doesn't make people who disagree with you a troll.

That said, this is pretty much a repeat of the "it affects daemons" debacle. The sensible rules-based approach said, "It affects daemons. What do we have in the rules that identify daemons. Oh, hey! Look at that, a Daemon special rule! Problem solved!" The opposing viewpoint said, "No! That can't be all it affects! It must affect things that have Daemon in their name! I don't have any rules to back that up, but it's the only sensible choice!" There was quite a bit of pointless anger and name calling (your apparent forte), but the position basically boiled down to that.

Rather than listen to any sort of rhyme or reason, the FAQ came out and "clarified" that this meant "things with the daemon rule, things with daemon in their name, and pretty much anything that might be vaguely icky."

So, you know, keep shouting and maybe the next FAQ will give you everything you desire and more.

Just out of curiosity, where can I find the rules for Psycher? I can find the rules for Psyker's but I don't know if they are the same.

DK wrote:Hey Mr troller, still waiting on a Pg number and a unit that is not a psyker that uses a psychic ability.

First you say that I can't read at a higher level than a 3rd grader, and now you're calling me a troll. I love these insults.

There isn't a page number because there's no page reference on how to read the english language.
And I have - repeatedly - referenced the Inq. Henchman model named Psyker. They have a psychic power, and have no Psyker (or psyker) special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers

Rules citation please.

Pg 51 of the GK codex, even tho it uses its name as a psyker, using the fact that names dont mean the weapon, like heavy flamer, it uses both caps and lower case to display psyker.

and for all psychic powers can only be used by psykers, pg 50 of the brb. if not find one unit that uses a psychic ability that is not a psyker. just one

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:Im still waitting for you to get me a pg number, without said pg number showing your point your argument is void and is inadmissible to the Emperor and will be thrown out. You Trolling at this point.

It's on the same page that shows how English sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation work. Your inability to understand that doesn't make people who disagree with you a troll.

That said, this is pretty much a repeat of the "it affects daemons" debacle. The sensible rules-based approach said, "It affects daemons. What do we have in the rules that identify daemons. Oh, hey! Look at that, a Daemon special rule! Problem solved!" The opposing viewpoint said, "No! That can't be all it affects! It must affect things that have Daemon in their name! I don't have any rules to back that up, but it's the only sensible choice!" There was quite a bit of pointless anger and name calling (your apparent forte), but the position basically boiled down to that.

Rather than listen to any sort of rhyme or reason, the FAQ came out and "clarified" that this meant "things with the daemon rule, things with daemon in their name, and pretty much anything that might be vaguely icky."

So, you know, keep shouting and maybe the next FAQ will give you everything you desire and more.

So using the FAQ as precedent without an actual ruling(like so many people like to do anyway), by the GW's logic versus Daemons or anything vaguely Daemonic being Daemons it is fair to assume that anyting with Psycher or using any abilites that are Psychic, would logically be Psychers. Good enough for me or anyone with an ability to reason or use common sense.

Dk you're points aren't holding up since you pick and choose what you want to use.

@Happyjew That's just people unable to spell psyker.

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers

Rules citation please.

Pg 51 of the GK codex, even tho it uses its name as a psyker, using the fact that names dont mean the weapon, like heavy flamer, it uses both caps and lower case to display psyker.

It's still missing the special rule, so it does not fall under the Psyker rules in the BRB.

and for all psychic powers can only be used by psykers, pg 50 of the brb. if not find one unit that uses a psychic ability that is not a psyker. just one

Page 50 of the BRB does not say, anywhere, that only Psykers can use psychic powers. Not once.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Hey Mr troller, still waiting on a Pg number and a unit that is not a psyker that uses a psychic ability.

First you say that I can't read at a higher level than a 3rd grader, and now you're calling me a troll. I love these insults.

There isn't a page number because there's no page reference on how to read the english language.
And I have - repeatedly - referenced the Inq. Henchman model named Psyker. They have a psychic power, and have no Psyker (or psyker) special rule.

well using your own argument, both Psyker and psyker is used in the barrage description, so your argument goes against your point.

In all honesty i don't really care, i know how to play and i dont try to manipulate rules to win, so consider me unsubscribed.

remember arguing on the internet is like running in the......

NecronLord3 wrote:So using the FAQ as precedent without an actual ruling(like so many people like to do anyway)

Citation - people in YMDC try *not* to do that.

by the GW's logic versus Daemons or anything vaguely Daemonic being Daemons it is fair to assume that anyting with Psycher or using any abilites that are Psychic, would logically be Psychers. Good enough for me or anyone with an ability to reason or use common sense.

More insults - man, this is awesome.

That's fine in a RAI or HYWPI point of view. If that's what you mean then say so. That is absolutely not RAW.

Tone it down everyone, no personal attacks or direct name calling. Attack the argument if you want, but not the person.

Dude that's the same wording as the pp which states only when firing the barrage do they count as a psyker NOT always. lol

rigeld2 wrote:[
Page 50 of the BRB does not say, anywhere, that only Psykers can use psychic powers. Not once.

But it does dictate the use of Psychic powers in vague terms and goes on to explain that the use of psychic powers is explained in greater detail at the Codex level. However, all Psychic abilities still are governed under the root entry in the BrB section Pscyher. Making all units using Psychic abilities Psychers.

DK wrote:well using your own argument, both Psyker and psyker is used in the barrage description, so your argument goes against your point.

Maybe, because, I don't know... it's referring to the model name?

In all honesty i don't really care, i know how to play and i dont try to manipulate rules to win, so consider me unsubscribed.

So... you don't really care... so you were trolling me? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

remember arguing on the internet is like running in the......

\o/ more insults. This is awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:But it does dictate the use of Psychic powers in vague terms and goes on to explain that the use of psychic powers is explained in greater detail at the Codex level. However, all Psychic abilities still are governed under the root entry in the BrB section Pscyher. Making all units using Psychic abilities Psychers.

No, it doesn't. You're making a leap that isn't supported by the rules.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:[
Page 50 of the BRB does not say, anywhere, that only Psykers can use psychic powers. Not once.

But it does dictate the use of Psychic powers in vague terms and goes on to explain that the use of psychic powers is explained in greater detail at the Codex level. However, all Psychic abilities still are governed under the root entry in the BrB section Pscyher. Making all units using Psychic abilities Psychers.

Except the rule says ONLY a PSYKER when using the ability not always.

See my post above, last time saying it before more warnings are handed out.

Let's go back to the offending sentence:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

If we can reasonably break that sentence into two self-contained sentences, then we can reasonably assume that the "and" is being used here to join two separate concepts:

Sentence 1: 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).'

Sentence 2: 'Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Doesn't work. You need one sentence. It's all one idea.

The vehicle DOESN'T have the Psyker special rule, importantly. It is treated as being a Psyker, and as being Leadership 10, for two named purposes, and only for those two named purposes: Psychic tests and psychic hoods. You can't extrapolate beyond that.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Let's go back to the offending sentence:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

If we can reasonably break that sentence into two self-contained sentences, then we can reasonably assume that the "and" is being used here to join two separate concepts:

Sentence 1: 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).'

Sentence 2: 'Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Doesn't work. You need one sentence. It's all one idea.

The vehicle DOESN'T have the Psyker special rule, importantly. It is treated as being a Psyker, and as being Leadership 10, for two named purposes, and only for those two named purposes: Psychic tests and psychic hoods. You can't extrapolate beyond that.

And that would be fine if it didn't become an effect on multiple codexes. You cannot argue that Farseers, Warlocks, Inq. Psychers, etc. aren't Psychers. They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

This seems like a case of people wanting the benefit of the rule without the Drawback.

NecronLord3 wrote:They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

You still haven't shown the rule that says that.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So using the FAQ as precedent without an actual ruling(like so many people like to do anyway)

Citation - people in YMDC try *not* to do that.

Yes. More to the point, it is quite clear that the FAQ ruling on the Daemon debacle didn't actually clarify any rule using any sort of existing rules, it fabricated a new one from whole cloth. It's a specific list of everything that ability affects (which should have been included as part of the ability description in the first place).

So, like I said, this issue could be FAQ'd. If it is, and it follows the previous precedent, we'll get a nice big list of things that count as 'Psykers' (which would undoubtedly include things that don't make much sense to be called a psyker at all). And if that happened, the FAQ decision would be no more "rules-based" than the previous one. That's fine for GW to do, but that wasn't my understanding of the purpose or use of YMDC.

NecronLord3 wrote:you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

If you mean that you cannot use a Psychic power without a Psychic Test, then I agree with you (provided the power in question requires a Psychic Test to be used).

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

You still haven't shown the rule that says that.

Pg 50 BrB. First section after the description governing the use of Psychic powers by PSYCHERS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IcyCool wrote:

If you mean that you cannot use a Psychic power without a Psychic Test, then I agree with you (provided the power in question requires a Psychic Test to be used).

There is no section for Psychics Tests. Only the rules for Psychers.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

You still haven't shown the rule that says that.

Pg 50 BrB. First section after the description governing the use of Psychic powers by PSYCHERS.

Right. And can you point to the sentence that says that only Psykers can use Psychic powers?\

OK so we know how psyKers use psychic powers. But that still doesn't prove that you have to be a psyKer to use psychic powers. As was pointed out, Inquisitorial Psykers are not psyKers nor have the special rule PsyKer, but they can still use psychic powers.