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NecronLord3 wrote:Okay Grey Knight Vehicles have Psychic Pilots. Are people actually trying to argue that these are not psychers? And that Eldar now have no Psychers also? So is a Inquisitoral Psycher Henchman now also not a psycher? He doesn't have the special rule either.

They may be psykers, but they are not Psykers.

DK wrote:under the bhos rule it says the leader taking the test, it dosent say you can use anyone else so no coteaz would not be affected.

Psyker henchman don't have brotherhood rule.

DK wrote:I think the gk book would say "this is the only time it is a psyker and is not affected by weapons that affect psykers" if thats whats intended, even for the Brits thats a broad way of altering a sentence that could be said outload and heard both ways.

We actually have a example of the same writer would write a rule for a vehicle that is treated as a psyker all the times, its the the Blood Angel book, its is written like this:

Psyker: A Furioso Li brarian is a psyker and has two psychic powers from the list given on page 63 (chosen when the army is picked). He can use one power each player turn, and counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. If he suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

As you will notice ihis is nothing like how the PP is written, no mention of being treated as a psyker (it says it very clearly they are psykers), the perils of the warp is exactly the same as for GK, no mention of psychic hood, the fact it even mentions them tells you it is not treated the same as other psykers, Grey knight vehicles do not have access to normal psychic powers, they instead have a vehicle upgrade which works in a similar way to that found in many other codexs, the difference is it is written in away that reflects the way the GK army works, a army of psykers, I'm not sure why you people keep adding a coma into the sentence, it doesn't have one, the raw is being leadership 10 and psyker only apply when taking psychic tests, they do not apply at any other time as the conditions are all linked (hence why the sentence is constructed the way it is). My opinion as to why is it also worded this way is because the rule is meant to represent the crew being psykers rather than the actual vehicle, if I have a psyker in a transport and someone fires a mindstrike missile at it the psyker inside does not suffer a perils, the mechanic of pp does a good job of representing this within the limitations of the rules without creating overlay clunky rules.

DK wrote:Pg 50 brb, under force weapons it says "used by trained psykers " that means the dreadnought is a psyker, so is the rinho

This really doesn't matter as a codex will always override the BRB when we have rules contradictions, the codex states they may use psychic powers, the fact is the GK codex is introduced a new type of psykers, the temporary one, it basically setting a new president.

A warlock is a "p"syker that uses psychic powers, he just doesn't have to test for them. Again looking for another army that has Psychic powers that are not used by (P)sykers or (p)sykers.

Warlocks state they are psykers very clearly just like the BA lib Dread, GK vehicles are not like warlocks as they only say they are conditional psykers

Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

I do think like you, but I have to say that the rhino being a psyker is anything but clear.

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

Yes, the warlocks are psykers and would be affected by the grenades or missiles - because the grenades and missiles state "psykers" and not Psykers.
Psyker henchmen are not psykers or Psykers - they just have a Psychic power. (also, there's the unit that has a Psychic power but is not a Psyker or psyker)
The Rhinos are not Psykers for the purposes of getting shot or assaulted - not that Psyk-out grenades will do anything to a Rhino.

It's quite specfically NOT a psyker. They don't have ld value, either. They roll a ld of 10 AS IF they did when using a psychic power, but they don't actually have one.

It's really clear, it's very specifically what the rule says. It's counter-intuitive and kinda silly, but it's also very much what the rules says.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

Yes, the warlocks are psykers and would be affected by the grenades or missiles - because the grenades and missiles state "psykers" and not Psykers.
Psyker henchmen are not psykers or Psykers - they just have a Psychic power. (also, there's the unit that has a Psychic power but is not a Psyker or psyker)
The Rhinos are not Psykers for the purposes of getting shot or assaulted - not that Psyk-out grenades will do anything to a Rhino.

Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

NecronLord3 wrote:Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

Wait...source of where it says a P/psyker has to have a Ld value?

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

Yes, the warlocks are psykers and would be affected by the grenades or missiles - because the grenades and missiles state "psykers" and not Psykers.
Psyker henchmen are not psykers or Psykers - they just have a Psychic power. (also, there's the unit that has a Psychic power but is not a Psyker or psyker)
The Rhinos are not Psykers for the purposes of getting shot or assaulted - not that Psyk-out grenades will do anything to a Rhino.

Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

Heavy Flamers aren't Heavy.
Meltabombs aren't Metla.
Psykers don't have the Psyker SR or any other SR labeling them psykers or Psykers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

Well, also that the Henchman unit named Psyker in the GK book is not a Psyker nor psyker - as it has no special rules labeling it as such.

so where are the set of rules governing these psykers you talk about since Psyker is in the rule book, where are psykers located?

rigeld2 wrote:

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

DK wrote:so where are the set of rules governing these psykers you talk about since Psyker is in the rule book, where are psykers located?

Anywhere "psyker" is referenced - ie Mindstrike Missiles and Psyk-out grenades.
"psyker" is also referenced in the Psyker section of the rulebook.

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

I want to see the pg that shows the separation of the real Psykers and the ghost psykers they are talking about. because this sound like a made up rule that dosent exists so that you dont get chomped up in games because you dont know how to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:so where are the set of rules governing these psykers you talk about since Psyker is in the rule book, where are psykers located?

Anywhere "psyker" is referenced - ie Mindstrike Missiles and Psyk-out grenades.
"psyker" is also referenced in the Psyker section of the rulebook.

you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

The debate on psykers comes up a lot with the assassin wanting to treat vehicle as psykers to get more shots or if coteaz is with henchman when they botch their power(as in is he affected also since he is a psyker part of the squad).

it is a convention that they use, and you notice throughout the entire book.

Look at the Feel no Pain USR on Page 75: "... take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final Wound)."

they differentiate between taking a wound

and a model losing its final Wound.

It works the same with Psyker Vs. psyker as well.

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

I think its clear that the Rhino is not a psyker as it is a tank and has no presence in the warp, the guy driving it certainly is, that kinda goes back to what I said about the rule trying it best to represent how a psyker acts when inside a tank within the constraints of the rules, as for the hencemen its clear they are psykers, its ended with etc which is tell us that they are treated as psykers for everything a normal psyker would be, this is unlike the PP which s clearly saying its a psyker for a few very limited things, I really couldn't are what judges decide in a GT, if you decided to add these imaginary comas then its no wonder they say they are psykers, its just a sad example of people being unable to accept unconventional ideas.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

That's a misquote by the way - I never said that.

The Titansword works on Daemons and Psykers.
Since Psyker could mean either the henchman unit (unlikely) or the Special Rule (likely) it really should be FAQed.
Without an FAQ I'd say it does not affect the Inq. Psykers.

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

Where are you getting this lower case psycher BS? It is upper case in the codex.

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

Where are you getting this lower case psycher BS? It is upper case in the codex.

Im not bringing up lower or upper case. You have to pay pts to upgrade the inquisitor to a psyker. If you didn't buy the upgrade then he is NOT a P/psyker. lol

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

you are avoiding it, what pg is it on that says there is a difference?

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

you are avoiding it, what pg is it on that says there is a difference?

It's a convention of how the 40k rules work.
Or are you asserting that wound and Wound are 100% interchangeable as well?

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

Where are you getting this lower case psycher BS? It is upper case in the codex.

Im not bringing up lower or upper case. You have to pay pts to upgrade the inquisitor to a psyker. If you didn't buy the upgrade then he is NOT a P/psyker. lol

And the Inquisitor Henchman Psycher?

As far as the henchman they don't have the psyker rule BUT can suffer perils and in the fluff calls them sanctioned psykers so I'd say they would get affected by mindstrike but thats my preference not a hard fact. Same as I think the vehicles are not affected. The only reason they put in the perils part for pp is incase when rolling fortitude you roll double 1 or 6.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

you are avoiding it, what pg is it on that says there is a difference?

It's a convention of how the 40k rules work.
Or are you asserting that wound and Wound are 100% interchangeable as well?

the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So dk do you treat LoC as psyker since they use psyker err sorcery? lol They have a ld score all the time.

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?