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PhantomViper wrote:

sparkywtf wrote:
To have something implemented in right away without any personal work, sure I will pay for it.

Define "work", please.

Is downloading a PDF = work to you?

Is getting a couple of stickers and putting them on top of your book = work?

sparkywtf wrote:
Army Builder charges (apparently) to have your software automatically update, where is your complaining about that? Oh wait it isn't GW so it must be okay. I am not saying they should charge for an FAQ, but if they want a buck to change my ibook instead of me having to open a PDF, it is worth the saved time to pay the dollar.

AFAIK, no, Army Builder doesn't charge you to update its sofware. AFAIK Army Builder only charged you when it went from version 2 to version 3, like every other software manufacturer in existence. Heck, like every other miniature game in existence charging you for a new version of their rules. Notice how I say AFAIK allot because I never actually got version 3 of AB since people still keep making the current 40K and Fantasy army lists for V2.2 so I never felt the need to pay for V3.x.

Charging you for a FAQ would be the same as a software company charging you for a patch that makes the software work...

And you would pay 1 dolar for a FAQ instead of downloading a PDF... Do you actually have a job or are you still in school? Don't mean to offend you but you seem to have a really poor understanding of the actual value of money, so you being in school and dependent of others for your income would explain that.

It isn't the work of downloading the PDF, it is referencing it while playing, which takes up enough time already just looking at the codex. And I can't put stickers on my ipad now can I?

As for Army Builder, I thought there was a yearly charge that does nothing up update datafiles for you or something, again no idea because I use battlescribe.

And I do have a job, one that pays me quiet well and I am in school. The actual value of say a dollar to update something essentially pays for itself. If it costs be a dollar and saves me an hour in the course of a year, well then it is pretty much a moot point. Everything has an opportunity cost, and sitting down with a codex or an ipad and making notes about changes is not one I want to do, as there is so many other better things I could be doing.

Kroothawk wrote:I hope you are right. Wouldn't be surprised at all if GW makes iPads mandatory

They'll also release a Citadel iPad with a GW sticker on the front. Retails for 50% over the standard iPad, but it's available in GW stores!

sparkywtf wrote:Army Builder charges (apparently) to have your software automatically update, where is your complaining about that?

I think Army Builder is free to update if you buy the full version.

PhantomViper wrote:And you would pay 1 dolar for a FAQ instead of downloading a PDF... Do you actually have a job or are you still in school? Don't mean to offend you but you seem to have a really poor understanding of the actual value of money, so you being in school and dependent of others for your income would explain that.

That's pretty much the basis of the entire App market. Make an app and sell it on the online store for $1-2. Most people are willing to drop a buck or two on a program, since it's really not that much money.

The distribution cost is minimal, so a lot of that $1-2 goes directly to the publisher.

If you buy this digital crack, I have some almost new CD's for GW's "Offichul" Army Builder programs i could throw at you for reference on how far this will last.


Only dropped once.

biccat wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I hope you are right. Wouldn't be surprised at all if GW makes iPads mandatory

They'll also release a Citadel iPad with a GW sticker on the front. Retails for 50% over the standard iPad, but it's available in GW stores!

The CitadelPad has some imperfections in the screen, but you can fix that with a bottle of CitaFluid for only 10$

d-usa wrote:
What makes you think that they will drop support for their paper books just because they are also selling a digital version at the same time?

Never said that they would drop support. I was just trying to understand why sparkywtf was saying that he would prefer to pay for the privilege.

d-usa wrote:
Actually, Army Builder does charge you. You pay for a yearly license to get the automatic update. When that license expires you can either renew or update manually.

I stand corrected then, like I said I was using AFAIK allot because I never actually felt the need to stop using AB 2.2 (which doesn't have any of those yearly subscription shenanigans), so I never used AB 3.x.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:And you would pay 1 dolar for a FAQ instead of downloading a PDF... Do you actually have a job or are you still in school? Don't mean to offend you but you seem to have a really poor understanding of the actual value of money, so you being in school and dependent of others for your income would explain that.

That's pretty much the basis of the entire App market. Make an app and sell it on the online store for $1-2. Most people are willing to drop a buck or two on a program, since it's really not that much money.

The distribution cost is minimal, so a lot of that $1-2 goes directly to the publisher.

A FAQ is not a program, its also not an App by any stretch of the imagination. The closest thing to a FAQ in the software world is a no-content, fix-only patch. And those are (almost) always free.

But hey, judging by the comments in this thread, allot of GW customers are happy to pay for things that other companies give for free, so there is another source of revenue for GW right there!

Army Builder has an annual subscription setup for automatic updates. If you're capable of doing all the work yourself, you can forgo this. I choose to subscribe as a way of supporting the people who worked on this product.

I'm interested in seeing how GW will handle the 6th Edition book. Depending on how well it is designed, the electronic version might well be better than the hardbound, even at the same price.

PhantomViper wrote:

d-usa wrote:
What makes you think that they will drop support for their paper books just because they are also selling a digital version at the same time?

Never said that they would drop support. I was just trying to understand why sparkywtf was saying that he would prefer to pay for the privilege.

I assume he was talking about the price for the e-book. He doesn't mind paying that price if the e-book updates automatically.

PhantomViper wrote:

d-usa wrote:
What makes you think that they will drop support for their paper books just because they are also selling a digital version at the same time?

Never said that they would drop support. I was just trying to understand why sparkywtf was saying that he would prefer to pay for the privilege.

I would prefer everything to be free and gum drops to rain from the sky.

But if there was a small fee to update the ibook, 1 or 2 dollars is exactly unreasonable for a one time cost. And it depends on what the addition is. If it is just to correct some spelling mistakes and some maybe a bad sentence, obviously it isn't worth it, but if it is a major change to a rule or addition of a unit, at least I don't have to buy a WD

After reading Yaks review the only thing that jumped out to me was "$9 more then the print version" and closed the window. What a bunch of ing mother ers.

[Mod Edit - While that may be easier, it is also illegal. Please do not advocate this on Dakka Dakka.]

Ravenous D wrote:After reading Yaks review the only thing that jumped out to me was "$9 more then the print version" and closed the window. What a bunch of ing mother ers.


[Mod Edit - While that may be easier, it is also illegal. Please do not advocate this on Dakka Dakka.]

I think they are even in price now. GW price hike FTW

sparkywtf wrote:
I would prefer everything to be free and gum drops to rain from the sky.

But if there was a small fee to update the ibook, 1 or 2 dollars is exactly unreasonable for a one time cost. And it depends on what the addition is. If it is just to correct some spelling mistakes and some maybe a bad sentence, obviously it isn't worth it, but if it is a major change to a rule or addition of a unit, at least I don't have to buy a WD

Ah! Now we are talking about another thing entirely. New units aren't a FAQ, new units are actual new content and I reason most people wouldn't mind paying a small fee to have them automatically added to their codex (even though Infinity does it for free and PP plans on doing it for free in their new App as well ).

Automatic updates would be one way for GW to kill old versions of their games. The ebook could be updated automatically and the old rules would disappear. I am sure that they would much rather charge you for a new book than simply update it. Maybe they will just replace the old book with a message that says buy the new one.

d-usa wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:After reading Yaks review the only thing that jumped out to me was "$9 more then the print version" and closed the window. What a bunch of ing mother ers.


[Mod Edit - While that may be easier, it is also illegal. Please do not advocate this on Dakka Dakka.]

I think they are even in price now. GW price hike FTW

Awesome...

Regardless though it doesnt need to go to a printer, it doesnt need to be shipped or take up space, its just some dude and server and we have to pay more? that, Im just waiting for GW to initiate Primae Noctis as the next step of building their evil empire.

Ravenous D wrote:

d-usa wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:After reading Yaks review the only thing that jumped out to me was "$9 more then the print version" and closed the window. What a bunch of ing mother ers.

[Mod Edit - While that may be easier, it is also illegal. Please do not advocate this on Dakka Dakka.]

I think they are even in price now. GW price hike FTW

Awesome...

Regardless though it doesnt need to go to a printer, it doesnt need to be shipped or take up space, its just some dude and server and we have to pay more? that, Im just waiting for GW to initiate Primae Noctis as the next step of building their evil empire.

But Apple takes their cut, for all we know that evil empire (the apple one) charges just as much for letting you use their iPad to sell this book as the guy doing the printing Does and a guy renting them a store . Automatic implementation of FAQs into the text would be nice and it would be a 'small' step towards justifying the price just a little. Heck, even just including the FAQs as an addendum in the back would be nice.

The iPad will probably last longer than a physical book though, they do like to fall apart alot. What is the quality of the hardcover books like? I haven't had one of those yet, so I don't know.

sparkywtf wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

d-usa wrote:
What makes you think that they will drop support for their paper books just because they are also selling a digital version at the same time?

Never said that they would drop support. I was just trying to understand why sparkywtf was saying that he would prefer to pay for the privilege.

I would prefer everything to be free and gum drops to rain from the sky.

But if there was a small fee to update the ibook, 1 or 2 dollars is exactly unreasonable for a one time cost. And it depends on what the addition is. If it is just to correct some spelling mistakes and some maybe a bad sentence, obviously it isn't worth it, but if it is a major change to a rule or addition of a unit, at least I don't have to buy a WD

If it's FAQs, typos, etc. fixing the old stuff, I expect it to be free updates. If they are adding content, I'm good with paying a fee depending on how much more is added.

New units/characters should be in the buck or two range. If they do a add-on minidex thing like back in 3rd edition, where you would buy the Blood Angels codex (requiring the main marine codex to use) I could see that being a $5-10 upgrade.

So much depends on where they are going with this. It could be cool, or not. Time will tell. I don't have enough faith in GW to be an early adopter.

I have an iPad, and use it primarily for gaming. It was a gift from The Wife; I wouldn't have spent the money for it myself. But since I have it, I use it a lot. The 4-6 hardcover books and wads of papers in my gaming bag have been replaced with a slim tablet. I'm not as young as I used to be, and my shoulder appreciates the change. There is Wi-FI everywhere I go, so the internet with all of it's rules updates and information is at my fingertips. Once you get used to it, looking up rules is just as fast, if not faster. While I'm a big fan of paper (and still do my army lists on a yellow pad) you shouldn't underestimate the connivence of a tablet. And while the world if very polarized with a love/hate for Apple, they do make a fine piece of gear in the iPad.

d-usa wrote:
But Apple takes their cut, for all we know that evil empire (the apple one) charges just as much for letting you use their iPad to sell this book as the guy doing the printing Does and a guy renting them a store . Automatic implementation of FAQs into the text would be nice and it would be a 'small' step towards justifying the price just a little. Heck, even just including the FAQs as an addendum in the back would be nice.

The iPad will probably last longer than a physical book though, they do like to fall apart alot. What is the quality of the hardcover books like? I haven't had one of those yet, so I don't know.

I cant imagine it being that big of a cut. It smells of "its new so it should be more expensive" much like finecast, 1/10th the cost of material, 20%+ increase in cost to consumer. The point is that they've cut out the middle man entirely so it costing more is insane, finecast at least has the (bad) excuse for "its new tech we need to pay off for the hundreds of molds".

Time will tell, currently free PDFs are better ('CAUSE ITS FREE) and requires very little effort to update. $40+ for something untangible that is clunking and MIGHT get updated is simply insulting.

d-usa wrote:
But Apple takes their cut, for all we know that evil empire (the apple one) charges just as much for letting you use their iPad to sell this book as the guy doing the printing Does and a guy renting them a store . Automatic implementation of FAQs into the text would be nice and it would be a 'small' step towards justifying the price just a little. Heck, even just including the FAQs as an addendum in the back would be nice.

The iPad will probably last longer than a physical book though, they do like to fall apart alot. What is the quality of the hardcover books like? I haven't had one of those yet, so I don't know.

Well, one could argue that GW should / could have released this in an Android friendly format and as such bypass the Apple fees and reach a potential much wider audience at the same time.

Not that I have either an iPad or an Android Pad, my "big toys budget" was spent in two separate motorbikes in the last two years, if I showed up at home with a tablet the wife would toss it and me along with it out the window!

Kroothawk wrote:

biccat wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I hope you are right. Wouldn't be surprised at all if GW makes iPads mandatory

They'll also release a Citadel iPad with a GW sticker on the front. Retails for 50% over the standard iPad, but it's available in GW stores!

The CitadelPad has some imperfections in the screen, but you can fix that with a bottle of CitaFluid for only 10$

Have you tried soaking it in warm water?

Ravenous D wrote:

d-usa wrote:
But Apple takes their cut, for all we know that evil empire (the apple one) charges just as much for letting you use their iPad to sell this book as the guy doing the printing Does and a guy renting them a store . Automatic implementation of FAQs into the text would be nice and it would be a 'small' step towards justifying the price just a little. Heck, even just including the FAQs as an addendum in the back would be nice.

The iPad will probably last longer than a physical book though, they do like to fall apart alot. What is the quality of the hardcover books like? I haven't had one of those yet, so I don't know.

I cant imagine it being that big of a cut. It smells of "its new so it should be more expensive" much like finecast, 1/10th the cost of material, 20%+ increase in cost to consumer. The point is that they've cut out the middle man entirely so it costing more is insane, finecast at least has the (bad) excuse for "its new tech we need to pay off for the hundreds of molds".

Time will tell, currently free PDFs are better ('CAUSE ITS FREE) and requires very little effort to update. $40+ for something untangible that is clunking and MIGHT get updated is simply insulting.

I honestly don't know how much the cut for Apple is. It would seem that it should not be a lot, but then it is Apple. Aren't they currently being investigated for price fixing?

you shouldn't underestimate the connivence of a tablet

I like that typo, looked like your sub-conscious mind let slip it's feelings.

Basically, I do not andmany others do not have 400-800bucks to spend on Apple's over priced, practically slave built devices. Then if I have to crap out that much for some sort of support device that has it's conveniences, but it's downsides too! I can accidentally step on a codex in paper copy and the worst is a crimped cover, I do that to the i-pad and it is destroyed. I don't have to worry if I powered it, or dragged the power cable to hook it to the wall, and the other issue is whether or not the store has wifi, and whether or not they will charge me for access to that!

Now the hardcopy and some rule books I avoid making too heavy when I got the minirules from the starter box, and taking just enough paper for the lists. I agree with others, simple Pdfs could be easier all around, even an e-book the much cheaper Kindles could get,,oh wait, colored pics riiiight.

So, now the two most expensive purveyors for what they make and sell have teamed up, this ploy will get more sales of the i-pad going and this in turn opens a new avenue for GW to take, but if they go the route of their army lists that Army builder beat them on, then I am sure the Apple fans will still be happy with their pads.

GW should have gone a more universally applicable route for this concept, Only Apple users will have access to this product.

PhantomViper wrote:

d-usa wrote:
But Apple takes their cut, for all we know that evil empire (the apple one) charges just as much for letting you use their iPad to sell this book as the guy doing the printing Does and a guy renting them a store . Automatic implementation of FAQs into the text would be nice and it would be a 'small' step towards justifying the price just a little. Heck, even just including the FAQs as an addendum in the back would be nice.

The iPad will probably last longer than a physical book though, they do like to fall apart alot. What is the quality of the hardcover books like? I haven't had one of those yet, so I don't know.

Well, one could argue that GW should / could have released this in an Android friendly format and as such bypass the Apple fees and reach a potential much wider audience at the same time.

Not that I have either an iPad or an Android Pad, my "big toys budget" was spent in two separate motorbikes in the last two years, if I showed up at home with a tablet the wife would toss it and me along with it out the window!

What wider audience? Given OS fragmentation and even worse then that, hardware fragmentation I think they made the right choice. The Ebook format is hit or miss depending on device and to author a book for the entirety of a possible audience involves dumbing down features to make it accessible to the low end of the hardware spectrum. It's just not worth it considering Apples product is so ludicrously dominant that it basically is the tablet market. I take issue with their price, but the delivered product appears superior to the PDFs I have and I dislike having to bring hardcopy books with me everywhere.

As I understand it, Apples cut is 30%.
I used to own an Android tablet.
Frankly the Android Market (Now Google Play) was so bad, and so awkward to use I only used free apps, and sold it to buy an iPad.
If a comparable program to iBooks2 (with similar security) comes out on Android, and Android sorts out the multi-os problem (some Apps will not work on all versions, Apple developers don't really need to worry about that) Then I can see GW going ahead with multi-platform.

ShumaGorath wrote:


What wider audience? Given OS fragmentation and even worse then that, hardware fragmentation I think they made the right choice. The Ebook format is hit or miss depending on device and to author a book for the entirety of a possible audience involves dumbing down features to make it accessible to the low end of the hardware spectrum. It's just not worth it considering Apples product is so ludicrously dominant that it basically is the tablet market. I take issue with their price, but the delivered product appears superior to the PDFs I have and I dislike having to bring hardcopy books with me everywhere.

Most Android apps are also compatible with the PC, meaning that it would be available to other consumers other than just tablet owners (or in this case, available only to iPad owners)...

One thing about the iPad is that every iPad is exactly the same dimensions as every other iPad.

Android devices have a screen size that could be anything. So it makes it harder to design something like an interactive eBook for that system.

The other thing to keep in mind is "Android" does not require updates or consistency. Then there is the hardware variability, which can be even stranger.

Developing for iOS means you only have to deal a single OS version.

Android, preference aside, is a much more variable platform; even if the OS is the same, the capabilities may not be. This is both good and bad.

In cases like a first attempt at software it is bad for development. It is necessarily more complex to require compatibility with more than a single setup, especially when there is not a real standard for what hardware utilizes it.

If they do not do it eventually, it is a horrid mistake; but starting with Android (or worse, Android + iOS) could have been much worse and would have definitively been more costly - both in time and money.

editing to add:
d-usa succinctly ninja'd me!

PhantomViper wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:


What wider audience? Given OS fragmentation and even worse then that, hardware fragmentation I think they made the right choice. The Ebook format is hit or miss depending on device and to author a book for the entirety of a possible audience involves dumbing down features to make it accessible to the low end of the hardware spectrum. It's just not worth it considering Apples product is so ludicrously dominant that it basically is the tablet market. I take issue with their price, but the delivered product appears superior to the PDFs I have and I dislike having to bring hardcopy books with me everywhere.

Most Android apps are also compatible with the PC, meaning that it would be available to other consumers other than just tablet owners (or in this case, available only to iPad owners)...

The number of people who:
1. Own an android device
2. Are aware of that
3. Are actually capable of acting on that awareness
4. And use GW products

Can probably be counted on my fingers and toes.

Also, since when were the majority of android apps PC compatible without a developers kit or licence? Are you talking about the google play store? Having done mobile App development I can guarantee you that the majority of android apps developed with touch controls in mind are not particularly friendly to a mouse driven interface.

-Loki- wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Formosa wrote:Ipad only? fail

Not if you know anything about mobile development.
Unless GW stops there. . . .

It IS GW after all.

Odds of them importing stuff to other platforms? Heh.
When's the last time you saw an Army Builder update that wasn't fan-made?

So Games Workshop are now being demonised over a completely separate companies product, Army Builder?

Only on Dakka. Some of you guys are pure class.

A company they pushed and promoted for god knows how long and then proceeded to ignore and neglect. Remember the Combat Card game they had a few years back? You know, the one that disappeared into the ether....hey, what about things like Epic and Blood Bowl? Oops.

GW has this fantastic pattern of releasing or licensing things out, pushing them like they're the bestest thing EVER for several months and then forgetting it ever existed. All the way down to their specialist games. Hell, they've even done it with their core games.

Anyone remember the Thorkinson's Isle campaign they ran? Basically ended a month early, telling you to come back next month for the finale....and never published it.

In about 10 years.

I love how the counter argument seems to be " Why buy it when I can steal it?"

DarkStarSabre wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Formosa wrote:Ipad only? fail

Not if you know anything about mobile development.
Unless GW stops there. . . .

It IS GW after all.

Odds of them importing stuff to other platforms? Heh.
When's the last time you saw an Army Builder update that wasn't fan-made?

So Games Workshop are now being demonised over a completely separate companies product, Army Builder?

Only on Dakka. Some of you guys are pure class.

A company they pushed and promoted for god knows how long and then proceeded to ignore and neglect. Remember the Combat Card game they had a few years back? You know, the one that disappeared into the ether....hey, what about things like Epic and Blood Bowl? Oops.

GW has this fantastic pattern of releasing or licensing things out, pushing them like they're the bestest thing EVER for several months and then forgetting it ever existed. All the way down to their specialist games. Hell, they've even done it with their core games.

Anyone remember the Thorkinson's Isle campaign they ran? Basically ended a month early, telling you to come back next month for the finale....and never published it.

In about 10 years.

I'd be more a fan of army builder as a company if in over a decade their software received any improvements at all. It's ugly, it's buggy,it's overly expensive. It's basically just a trussed up excel spreadsheet maker and it always has been. The cost of getting even a vaguely competent interface designer in there shouldn't be so dramatic that they'd hire someone whose entire career experience is making 90's geocities websites to put gradients on everything instead. Hell, I'd do it. They charge full product prices for a piece of garage software that their community provides content for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leth wrote:I love how the counter argument seems to be " Why buy it when I can steal it?"

It's a legitimate counter argument and it's one that GW was probably aware of. The 40k playing and iPad owning community probably has a reasonable excess of spending cash to justify something like this though. At the very least that's likely what GW was thinking.

d-usa wrote:
Actually, Army Builder does charge you. You pay for a yearly license to get the automatic update. When that license expires you can either renew or update manually.

Until they release a breaking change that causes datafiles not to be backward compatible with prior versions (3.2 to 3.1/3.0) and then you have to pony up for a year or some amount to cover years of support you didn't pay for because there was no support.