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12thRonin wrote:

d-usa wrote:
Actually, Army Builder does charge you. You pay for a yearly license to get the automatic update. When that license expires you can either renew or update manually.

Until they release a breaking change that causes datafiles not to be backward compatible with prior versions (3.2 to 3.1/3.0) and then you have to pony up for a year or some amount to cover years of support you didn't pay for because there was no support.

I've had to buy the program three times in my lifetime and after my mac died I need it now for a fourth. I'm never buying it again.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Wait, I hope all codexes arent released this way now. If so im left in the dust.

Same here. Down own the equipment, dont plan to. Also, there is no way I would pay that price for a digital copy.

I like this:

Leth wrote:I love how the counter argument seems to be " Why buy it when I can steal it?"

No kidding.

Anyone who is advocating piracy, please STOP - OK?

Thanks!

d-usa wrote:

Vryce wrote:Hrm.. where to start. I suppose I'll start w/ this - this is actually a GOOD idea. It shows the customer base (us) that they are actively trying to stay in the curve when it comes to things tech-y, and it also shows that they're willing look in other directions with their books. Also, doing the trial (hopefully) run on the iOS is the logical thing to do, however, the reasons being that it has the highest marketshare for this type of thing are of secondary concern. The reason they're doing this on iOS, is because Apple has a beautiful programming language that makes this stuff incredibly easy to do. Sure, the iPad has the most marketshare, but lets be honest - the % of people in this hobby w/ an iPad is MAYBE 1% of total actual users. When was the last time you were @ your FLGS & somebody showed up w/ a tablet of any kind...?

I am a tablet user, but I never take it to my FLGS. My tabled has movies and music on it, why would I take it to my FLGS when I am there to play games? So the lack of iPads at your FLGS is not a very accurate indicator for tabled use by gamers IMO.

Vryce wrote:Realistically, this is a solution to a set of problems that I - and the rest of you, tbh - DON'T have. "I have so much stuff to carry, the BRB, the codecies for all my armies & all their FAQ's, etc., etc." Solution - don't carry all that stuff. There's absolutely no reason that if you have multiple armies (most of us do obviously) that you have to take ALL of them & their required materials w/ you when you go play. But, when you do, be prepared to take that stuff w/ you. You can buy a decent backpack from Wal-Mart (or regional equivilent) for ~$15. If you're taking 5 - 7 books w/ you as I have seen people mention, then that means that you're probably carrying @ least that many armies too, so the backpack full of books is the last of your concerns.

So what you are saying is "You already carry lots of stuff, who cares if you carry more?" Many people have books for armies that they don't own, maybe they want to look at the rules and units that an opponent is using or for pickup games. I was at a family reunion this weekend and it turns out one of my brothers that I hardly see plays 40K now. I didn't have my books with me, but I did have a PDF of my C:SM book on my laptop. Between that and Army Builder I was able to use a part of his C:CSM force as a proxy to play a pickup game.

Vryce wrote:"I need to have a searchable interface for my rules." WHY? Do you not KNOW your relevent codex? Have you not sat on the toilet for hours on end (hopefully not consecutively ) and read your codex over & over & over & over..? If you have to look up a rule EVERY SINGLE TIME you play (someone mentioned a 'nid psychic power he could never find when he used it), than you have more problems than a digital copy of your codex will solve. Now, I understand someone may want to look @ a particular rule from time to time, or you may be using a new character/unit than you're used to & you might need to verify you have it right. Solution - tabs. Get some stick on tabs from the stationery section of your local all-in-one store & label your codex so these things can be easily found. And to sum up the final point here - this digital media offers nothing necessary that you don't already have in the hard copy. I've never been in the middle of a game & thought "Man, It'd be GREAT now if I could look @ a 360 degree rotating photo of <insert model here>."

Stick-on tabs don't solve the problem of people not wanting to carry every book out there.

As far as "don't you know your codex" goes: have you been so lucky that you never played anybody that doesn't know your codex and said "you are making that up, show me the rule"? The majority of my having to find a rule is for my opponent.

Vryce wrote:And to sum up the final point here - this digital media offers nothing necessary that you don't already have in the hard copy. I've never been in the middle of a game & thought "Man, It'd be GREAT now if I could look @ a 360 degree rotating photo of <insert model here>."

An earlier point that I made is that I don't think we will see how viable this product is until the first new rulebook or new codex. It is not a supplement to a hard copy, not in the format it is sold. I think during the next release, when people will decide "Do I want this as a hard copy OR do I want it digital", we will see how readily it is accepted.

Vryce wrote:This idea, like I said, is great, but it needs MUCH refinement before it's of any real practical use to anyone here. For those of us who don't have a tablet (I'm guessing @ least 75% of the users here), I have serious doubts that this is going to make them run out & purchase one (I know I wont) and if GW is going to a digital only format, they're going to loose LOTS of business. Realistically, until tablets (of any variety) become the norm, this is all just grandstanding, to make them feel like they're 'doing us a favor' & moving into the digital age.
~Vryce

I'm pretty sure you didn't actually read my post @ all. For one thing, you essentially proved my point by saying you have a tablet, but don't use it for gaming or take it to the store. Notice, you didn't say what kind of tablet you use, just that you have one. If you don't have an iPad, your point here is basically moot. Also, I never said "You already carry lots of heavy stuff, why not carry more." I said that the people taking 5 - 7 books to the store @ a time did so of their own volition - there's never a necessity to bring that many books. You also cite the people who have codex's for army's they don't play. So do I - but I'm not taking my 3.5 ed Chaos codex w/ me when I go to my FLGS, nor am I taking my current edition DA or Eldar books either. THEN you go on to say that you have PDF's on your laptop & used that to play a PUG w/ your brother - PDF's were never really the issue on discussion.

And if stick on tabs 'don't solve the problem of people not wanting to carry every book out there' then my response to that (and still is) DON'T. Take the codex you're playing for the day & leave the rest @ home. Tabs also make it great for the other person wanting to know the rule you're refering to in your book - you know, the 'unlucky' people that don't know their opponents codex's - simply open to the page that you TABBED & show them the rule.

It's comical to me that with today's price increase the paper codex is now priced identically to the digital codex. It's quite obvious to me that the digital version isn't meant for those who already own the paper book. Ultimately, $42 USD is an outrageous price for either of them.

Alpharius wrote:

Leth wrote:I love how the counter argument seems to be " Why buy it when I can steal it?"

No kidding.

Anyone who is advocating piracy, please STOP - OK?

Thanks!

It's a realistic concern in the marketing of a digital product. Advocation on this website isn't ok, but it's important to the discussion of the viability of this product.

12thRonin wrote:

d-usa wrote:
Actually, Army Builder does charge you. You pay for a yearly license to get the automatic update. When that license expires you can either renew or update manually.

Until they release a breaking change that causes datafiles not to be backward compatible with prior versions (3.2 to 3.1/3.0) and then you have to pony up for a year or some amount to cover years of support you didn't pay for because there was no support.

I used to be an AB fan until they did that. If the invalidating release had been 4.0 with a bunch of new features, fine, I fully understand having to pony up again. But that was just a jerk move, and they lost this customer over it.



Regarding iPad codicies, one of the reasons I like this move is because it's aimed at a more veteran audience. Sure, the kiddies have iPads and are savvy users of said tablets. But I just think these will be downloaded more by Vinny Veteran than by Billy Beginner, and it might be a good sign about the direction of 6th edition.

stickmonkey wrote:The release schedule is a little wonky time wise, but my info tells me we should see roughly 1-3 codexes released a month, but not all are being converted...right now. Pace may be sporadic. In addition, there will be roughly 4-5 other supplements per month. (fantasy should see the same.)

Up next are BA, Necrons, GK, and DE.

I expect these by sept. as well as 6th Ed, and the new CSM book.

Painting guides for specific armies should roughly coincide with releases for those armies.

Later this year should see IG, Tyranids, and SoB.

Notably absent...you can figure that out

(for fantasy players existing army books for 8th are all to be released by dec)

Cheers.

BramGaunt wrote:Afaik, digital versions will be available a little later than printed ones, because GW hopes to get iPad users to buy both. Which they probably will.

Darnok wrote:Not only do I have copies of several more iBook codexes, I have beta versions of the Android equivalents too (it is not 100% certain they will go ahead with this, but I expect they will). I cannot tell you more for reasons I cannot go into, but rest assured that I will tell you all about them immediately after they are released to the general public.

Still guys It's GW trying to make more cash from something unnecessary, and outdated. The Space Marine codex is renewed near every edition. Why didn't they do say Grey Knights? or even Necrons? Its because they are trying to milk as much from their poster boys as possible until they give them a new book which all marine players will folk out £25 or even £30 which they will charge what is essentially a set of rules in a binding which they probably make 400% profit on as the codex is the almost catalog for kids to buy new stuff.

ash1986 wrote:Still guys It's GW trying to make more cash from something unnecessary, and outdated. The Space Marine codex is renewed near every edition. Why didn't they do say Grey Knights? or even Necrons? Its because they are trying to milk as much from their poster boys as possible until they give them a new book which all marine players will folk out £25 or even £30 which they will charge what is essentially a set of rules in a binding which they probably make 400% profit on as the codex is the almost catalog for kids to buy new stuff.

Right now, it's a sucker is born every minute. Doesn't matter if people have the money to afford it or not. The thing is, people paid about $80 for the SM codex. Doesn't matter if it's an electronic version or not, YOU STILL PAID twice for something you are using once.

Then again we are paying $50 for something that costs 50 cents to make so I guess we are all suckers in the end. Doesn't matter if you buy on ebay or not you still are over paying. Just not as much.

That being said, why SM though? Does this mean that SM will not be update in a while? Is it because GW thinks since 1/2 if not more, or what ever it is % of people who play SM will get it?

Davor wrote:That being said, why SM though? Does this mean that SM will not be update in a while?

1.) SM seem to be quite popular
2.) They indeed get no new Codex in the near future.

Kroothawk wrote:

Davor wrote:That being said, why SM though? Does this mean that SM will not be update in a while?

1.) SM seem to be quite popular
2.) They indeed get no new Codex in the near future.

All I can think of is SM are the posterchildren. Disney would release a Micky Mouse item first and not lead with a Daisy Duck product first.

If they are going to do errata for 6th edition, maybe this is one of the ways they plan to do it is via the e-book and then release clumsy paper erratas for the paper codexes.

Interesting note in response to an email I sent to GW in regards to the one platform issue with this digital codex:

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. While the Digital books will no doubt get an updates other platforms at some point in the future, at this time we don’t know when this will be. However, please keep the faith that they haven’t been forgotten about them and their time will come one day!

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.

Antonio Cumba
Customer Services Manager

Leth wrote:I think that once it goes to android then it will be a good deal for them. However I feel that the limited market might be a bad thing. I look forward to trying to buy all the new books as they come out for it(once it is on android) However I will not be buying the old books as I already have most of them.

iPads make up 68% of the tablet market. So implying that they released this to a 'limited' market is somewhat misleading. They released it to the largest market. If it is successful, I'm sure we'll see it expanded to other markets.

WEll i have not got an Ibook nor do i want one, and i would not buy this anyway even if i did.
This is a step in the right direction though, thats for sure, i never thought i would see the day !!

Cyporiean wrote:

Liquidice281 wrote:The problem with releasing PDF's and ebook files is that the first minute it become available, it will be on the internet for everyone to pirate.

If its cheap enough, people will buy rather then pirate.

ash1986 wrote:Still guys It's GW trying to make more cash from something unnecessary, and outdated. The Space Marine codex is renewed near every edition. Why didn't they do say Grey Knights? or even Necrons? Its because they are trying to milk as much from their poster boys as possible until they give them a new book which all marine players will folk out £25 or even £30 which they will charge what is essentially a set of rules in a binding which they probably make 400% profit on as the codex is the almost catalog for kids to buy new stuff.

Sure its GW, they are trying to make money by releasing the SM codex, which will most likely get updated in 6th ed. But SM is also the most popular army, which is a good reason to start the digital codex 'revolution' with them first.

Kroothawk wrote:

stickmonkey wrote:
Painting guides for specific armies should roughly coincide with releases for those armies.

There is something that I could see this be a very good use for. (Hopefully) cheap painting guides for different marines, with an ability to zoom in and 360 during the different steps, switch with different markings, etc...

d-usa wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:
Also, I very much doubt they will update these books. they never have before, why would they start now?

How would they have updated the books before, considering there are no prior ebooks?

I meant, they have not in my experience offered updates for any material outside of FAQ which you have to spend time finding. (I also strongly believe they should have the FAQ as a 'related link' for the codex in question.)

Of course, I might be wrong. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, good for me.

yakface wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:For the record, the book is annoying for rules useage. I hope no one else wastes their money on this.

I've found the book to be superior to the print version when it comes to rules usage (the reasons why are in my review). What precisely do you find annoying?

I can see why touching the name of the rule anywhere in the book and having it pop up is useful and I will use it as such.
Then again, I also was expecting to be able to highlight key parts of rules, which I can't because they come up as a popup.


At least for the important rules (the one's found in the codex) it would be lovely to be able to highlight the part where the rule says 'SM who regroup using AtSKNF can move a further 6" or cound as not moving'.

In the FNP part, I wanna highlight the parts where it tells me that the rule can't be used for x reason.

that's what I was expecting, and I was disapointed.

helium42 wrote:

Leth wrote:I think that once it goes to android then it will be a good deal for them. However I feel that the limited market might be a bad thing. I look forward to trying to buy all the new books as they come out for it(once it is on android) However I will not be buying the old books as I already have most of them.

iPads make up 68% of the tablet market. So implying that they released this to a 'limited' market is somewhat misleading. They released it to the largest market. If it is successful, I'm sure we'll see it expanded to other markets.

Now what is the Ipad market compared to the Windows market, the android market, and any other computer equivalent?

I was not limiting it to tablets. I cant use it on a laptop or desktop either

Leth wrote:

helium42 wrote:

Leth wrote:I think that once it goes to android then it will be a good deal for them. However I feel that the limited market might be a bad thing. I look forward to trying to buy all the new books as they come out for it(once it is on android) However I will not be buying the old books as I already have most of them.

iPads make up 68% of the tablet market. So implying that they released this to a 'limited' market is somewhat misleading. They released it to the largest market. If it is successful, I'm sure we'll see it expanded to other markets.

Now what is the Ipad market compared to the Windows market, the android market, and any other computer equivalent?

I was not limiting it to tablets. I cant use it on a laptop or desktop either

Comparing it to the active ebook reading market of those platforms? Titanic. No one uses Ebooks on desktops, the vast vast majority of people wouldn't even know how. It's not a natively supported format on PCs in the first place and touch driven interfaces are trash when used on a mouse and keyboard. Certainly no one is going to pay that much for non mobile content designed for a different interface so that they can read a book they probably already own.

Leth wrote:
Now what is the Ipad market compared to the Windows market, the android market, and any other computer equivalent?

I was not limiting it to tablets. I cant use it on a laptop or desktop either

The problem here is what the 'market' actually is in these cases. Because if we're talking about a PDF, which could be used by anything then GW would basically have to be giving it away for free, because regardless of what price they charge for it, it would get passed around so quickly it might as well be free.

So yes, the market for a PDF is huge, but is it as profitable as making it only for a closed platform, where people essentially cannot trade or pirate the file?

GW have shown no interest in going after the business model of providing their rules for free as an attempt to draw customers in. You can argue whether this is a smart or stupid strategy all day long, but the fact is, that isn't their strategy, and this new digital version is not an attempt to change that policy, merely a different way to consume what they already offer in print form.


So within that business model mindset, GW choosing to go with the majority market-share leader of an incredibly fast-growing segment (the tablet) is piratically a no-brainer. The real question will be can and will they convert the file to some sort of android version at some point. Ultimately I think that will depend on whether or not they can suitably protect the android version from being passed around, because I think that definitely has to be one of the things that really drew GW to the ibooks 2.0 format (how 'closed' it is and therefore how much they can get compensated for the product).

yakface wrote:

Leth wrote:
Now what is the Ipad market compared to the Windows market, the android market, and any other computer equivalent?

I was not limiting it to tablets. I cant use it on a laptop or desktop either

The problem here is what the 'market' actually is in these cases. Because if we're talking about a PDF, which could be used by anything then GW would basically have to be giving it away for free, because regardless of what price they charge for it, it would get passed around so quickly it might as well be free.

So yes, the market for a PDF is huge, but is it as profitable as making it only for a closed platform, where people essentially cannot trade or pirate the file?

GW have shown no interest in going after the business model of providing their rules for free as an attempt to draw customers in. You can argue whether this is a smart or stupid strategy all day long, but the fact is, that isn't their strategy, and this new digital version is not an attempt to change that policy, merely a different way to consume what they already offer in print form.


So within that business model mindset, GW choosing to go with the majority market-share leader of an incredibly fast-growing segment (the tablet) is piratically a no-brainer. The real question will be can and will they convert the file to some sort of android version at some point. Ultimately I think that will depend on whether or not they can suitably protect the android version from being passed around, because I think that definitely has to be one of the things that really drew GW to the ibooks 2.0 format (how 'closed' it is and therefore how much they can get compensated for the product).

What do you think the release of this product (and the stormtalon) says about the market viability of a C:SM release early in the lifespan of sixth? I know that popular wisdom is that new 40k game versions are followed by a bluemarine book, but I have seen no signs of that in this cycle, and this new format release so close to the coming edition would imply that they're putting financial interests into maintaining the status quo of the games signature army for quite some time.

I think rumors and general game play seem to indicate that C:SM is still fairly strong and not due for an update soon. I don't think we have had any whispers of a new Vanilla Marine codex at all.

d-usa wrote:I think rumors and general game play seem to indicate that C:SM is still fairly strong and not due for an update soon. I don't think we have had any whispers of a new Vanilla Marine codex at all.

The vanilla marine book is one of the games weakest. It's not 3rd ed Necron or current tau bad, but it's easily the weakest of the power armor books (for fifth edition, a meta change that is less reliant on assault or overwhelming firepower could change that) and those comprise most of the game. GW has shown through third, fourth, and fifth that C:SM is released either first or very close to first with every new edition, but I agree that there seems to be no indication that the trend will continue into sixth. Despite that, many in the rumormill circles usually put an asterisk next to rumors implying that a new C:SM is somewhat expected. I somewhat suspect that the stormtalon and this ebook put a nail in that ideas coffin.

ShumaGorath wrote:

d-usa wrote:I think rumors and general game play seem to indicate that C:SM is still fairly strong and not due for an update soon. I don't think we have had any whispers of a new Vanilla Marine codex at all.

The vanilla marine book is one of the games weakest. It's not 3rd ed Necron or current tau bad, but it's easily the weakest of the power armor books (for fifth edition, a meta change that is less reliant on assault or overwhelming firepower could change that) and those comprise most of the game. GW has shown through third, fourth, and fifth that C:SM is released either first or very close to first with every new edition, but I agree that there seems to be no indication that the trend will continue into sixth. Despite that, many in the rumormill circles usually put an asterisk next to rumors implying that a new C:SM is somewhat expected. I somewhat suspect that the stormtalon and this ebook put a nail in that ideas coffin.

One big unknown is of course the mechanics of 6th edition. It could be that the rule changes themselves might give C:SM a bump on the competitive scale.

Plus, isn't the big marine dex of early 6th Ed going to be green marines?

d-usa wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

d-usa wrote:I think rumors and general game play seem to indicate that C:SM is still fairly strong and not due for an update soon. I don't think we have had any whispers of a new Vanilla Marine codex at all.

The vanilla marine book is one of the games weakest. It's not 3rd ed Necron or current tau bad, but it's easily the weakest of the power armor books (for fifth edition, a meta change that is less reliant on assault or overwhelming firepower could change that) and those comprise most of the game. GW has shown through third, fourth, and fifth that C:SM is released either first or very close to first with every new edition, but I agree that there seems to be no indication that the trend will continue into sixth. Despite that, many in the rumormill circles usually put an asterisk next to rumors implying that a new C:SM is somewhat expected. I somewhat suspect that the stormtalon and this ebook put a nail in that ideas coffin.

One big unknown is of course the mechanics of 6th edition. It could be that the rule changes themselves might give C:SM a bump on the competitive scale.

Certainly true, they're low on the scale due to wacky costing in heavy weapon squads, their inability to really mech up very well, and their lack of close combat capability in their troops slot. The AP weapon change looks to make generic terminators (the games cheapest) much better and non troop scoring mixed with scoring that is persistent turn by turn rather than relying on late game assault grabs could bring the book back a bit. It's going to be hard for it ever to compete with books like wolves or BAs though, especially BAs which have mostly identical choices with the exception that they're all cheaper, have access to more cheaper equipment, and have plentiful access to FNP. No rules change is really going to shore up fundamentally bad costing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote:Plus, isn't the big marine dex of early 6th Ed going to be green marines?

Their recent release schedule implies a codex marine book every other release, so a vanilla codex could slide in after that and still be fairly early in the cycle. Too early for products like the iBook to really be marketable though.

I honestly don't think the 'power-level' of a codex has any bearing whatsoever on GW's decision on whether to update a codex a not. So personally I'm not reading into the decision to release the SM Codex as the first digital offering at all. I'd guess that vanilla SM armies are still the most common worldwide when you're not just focused on tournament armies, and besides SMs are GW's flagship product so it makes sense that they'd want to introduce the SM book as the first offering even if it is a bit underwhelming 'power-wise' when compared to the other SM chapter books.

I guess this digital release does make me feel that its unlikely that the generic SM book will be redone soon after 6th edition, but again I don't think GW would bat an eye about putting out a digital version of their book and then putting out the new edition of the SM Codex like a year later.

yakface wrote:
GW have shown no interest in going after the business model of providing their rules for free as an attempt to draw customers in. You can argue whether this is a smart or stupid strategy all day long, but the fact is, that isn't their strategy, and this new digital version is not an attempt to change that policy, merely a different way to consume what they already offer in print form.

That's not entirely true, they are more than willing to provide the rules (or at least the codexes) as free PDFs if they think it's in the best interest of the particular market. Case in point is Japan, where all the current codexes are available as PDFs off the GW website. They don't have the market presence in Japan, so codexes are available for free and they make the money off the Australian level model prices.