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Lungpickle wrote:
This could go for hundreds of post, however if you don't roll to hit and don't generate a 1 then NO there's no reroll. That's it simple as it gets.

In that case, if you don't roll to hit and miss then there is no re-roll.

Yes they do. Under the following conditions any unit can reroll some to hit dice:

1. Opponent has a psyker in their army
2. Psyker has access to Telekinesis
3. That Psyker rolls the Objuration Mechanicum power
4. That Psyker casts that power on your unit.
5. You fail your DtW roll

Presto your model can have a reroll under the above conditions. The conditions don't count argument means that we do not require ANY of 1 to 5 to be true. Hence literally every unit has a reroll to scatter all the time.

Lungpickle wrote:
This could go for hundreds of post, however if you don't roll to hit and don't generate a 1 then NO there's no reroll. That's it simple as it gets.

So you don't get to apply any re-roll to the blasts rules then as they all have conditions?

Chris Lysander wrote:ERM... clearly you do IF you met the laid down criteria, you DON'T ROLL to hit YOU CANNOT ROLL the 1 required to gain your reroll, show me where in the rule book it states you can ignore a condition

Lungpickle wrote:This could go for hundreds of post, however if you don't roll to hit and don't generate a 1 then NO there's no reroll. That's it simple as it gets.

To both of you: you have read the rule, yes? It is quite clear that, IF You can reroll to hit (whats, that, PE lets you reroll to hit? Say it aint so!) then you can reroll scatter

Or, you know, you could just ignore the posts saying the same thing, make the same ruleless, baseless assertions and claim others have to prove their case, when you havent even come close?

Cos that would be a violation of the tenets, SURELY you wouldnt do that?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
This could go for hundreds of post, however if you don't roll to hit and don't generate a 1 then NO there's no reroll. That's it simple as it gets.

So you don't get to apply any re-roll to the blasts rules then as they all have conditions?

As opposed to EVERY unit in the game ALWAYS getting to reroll blasts I think no one getting it is by far the better interpretation...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes they do. Under the following conditions any unit can reroll some to hit dice:

1. Opponent has a psyker in their army
2. Psyker has access to Telekinesis
3. That Psyker rolls the Objuration Mechanicum power
4. That Psyker casts that power on your unit.
5. You fail your DtW roll

Presto your model can have a reroll under the above conditions. The conditions don't count argument means that we do not require ANY of 1 to 5 to be true. Hence literally every unit has a reroll to scatter all the time.

Nonsense. Being able to get the ability to have a reroll =/= having the ability to reroll. A model with preferred enemy shooting at a model that is its preferred enemy is actually HAVING the ability to reroll to hit dice. A model that has a psyker in its army that didnt cast prescience on it is not.
Your argument that your construct is the same as "reroll 1's to hit=reroll to hit" and "reroll to hit=/=reroll ALL to hit" is more than a weak point.

Prove that "having a reroll on 1's to hit=having a reroll to hit" and "having a reroll to hit=/=having a reroll to ALL to hit" are not valid,

Prove that "having a reroll on 1's to hit=having a reroll to hit" and "having a reroll to hit=/=having a reroll to ALL to hit" are not valid

I've not said that those two statements are not valid. Though it is relatively easy to illustrate the first is false as you have an equals sign between two statements that do not mean the same thing.

But prove that:

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to hit under any condition"

Or even

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to ANY to hit"

Or what I think you actually believe the rules to be:

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to ANY OF THESE to hit ROLLS"

The issue is having a reroll to hit is ambiguous. Does it mean a conditional or unconditional reroll. The former means no one gets it the later means literally every one gets it.

The claim that what I stated is nonsense is just stating that your side of the argument is nonsense. All rerolls currently are conditional. Under the conditions posted any model could get to reroll the to hit dice. Prove that isn't the case. This is exactly the sane argument as your one for PE, there are conditions for that to work you are happy to ignore some (rolling a 1 to hit) yet claim others still apply (tar getting your PE). This is inconsistentand prove why one condition can apply and the other can be ignored?

Mywik - you probably meant "equivalent to" rather than equals - as "rerolling 1s to hit" IS equivalent to "reroll to-hit" - as in, you have completely satisfied the requirement to "have" the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. If you fire an Assault 2 weapon, roll double 1, you reroll both to-hit rolls.

For some reason one "side" seems to require that "reroll to-hit" means "reroll all failed to-hit", will then claim that unless you can roll a 1 to hit you dont get a reroll despite then not being able to answer why you get a reroll even though you havent failed to-hit in the second, totally made up idea as to what "reroll all failed to-hit" means

The disconnect between the two is amazing.

Jeah thats what i meant.

There are people that constantly insisting that having the ability to reroll hit dice isnt an ability to reroll hit dice. *shrug*

Jeah thats what i meant.

There are people that constantly insisting that having the ability to reroll hit dice isnt an ability to reroll hit dice. *shrug*

And you're one of them. Care to answer any of the questions posed or is this you conceding?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jeah thats what i meant.

There are people that constantly insisting that having the ability to reroll hit dice isnt an ability to reroll hit dice. *shrug*

And you're one of them. Care to answer any of the questions posed or is this you conceding?

As i already admitted on my part is that my last post was incorrectly written. So adressing the rest of your post is obsolete.

What you didnt actually answer so far is why you are insisting a condition that isnt there. The point still stands that the blast reroll rules dont need a condition other than "having a reroll to hit" which is 100% fulfilled by being able to reroll 1's on a to hit as stated a lot of times now. There is still (and wont be there until a faq that says otherwise) no condition of being able to reroll all to hit rolls. I dont concede at all since you still failed to prove where the condition you are reading into the blast rerolls is coming from. Its certainly not in the wording of the rule.

Your point was that "having the general possibility of gaining an ability that grants rerolls to hit"="having an ability to reroll to hit" which is indeed nonsense.

First I advise you actually read the rest of my post because that change of wording does not make it obsolete.

No I said if we are required to have the ability to reroll under any conditions to qualify for a reroll to blast then all models get rerolls all the time. You have failed to prove why some conditions are OK and some are not.

You say rerolling 1s to hit 100% fulfills rerolling to hit. I ask you to prove that. Because you have a condition on your reroll. A condition that is not specifically allowed by the statement.

So you need to prove:

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to hit the under any conditions"

Or

The other two statements in my previous posts.

 Mywik wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jeah thats what i meant.

There are people that constantly insisting that having the ability to reroll hit dice isnt an ability to reroll hit dice. *shrug*

And you're one of them. Care to answer any of the questions posed or is this you conceding?

As i already admitted on my part is that my last post was incorrectly written. So adressing the rest of your post is obsolete.

What you didnt actually answer so far is why you are insisting a condition that isnt there. The point still stands that the blast reroll rules dont need a condition other than "having a reroll to hit" which is 100% fulfilled by being able to reroll 1's on a to hit as stated a lot of times now. There is still (and wont be there until a faq that says otherwise) no condition of being able to reroll all to hit rolls. I dont concede at all since you still failed to prove where the condition you are reading into the blast rerolls is coming from. Its certainly not in the wording of the rule.

Your point was that "having the general possibility of gaining an ability that grants rerolls to hit"="having an ability to reroll to hit" which is indeed nonsense.

As above

There is no condition present in the requirement, therefroe any action which fulfils that requirement is valid

If I have the ability to reroll all failed to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? Yes or No
If I have the ability to reroll 1s to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to hit? Yes or No

If the contra answer "no" to both, or to one but not the other, then page and paragrapgh to support it. If being inconsistent, textual proof of why is required

So far not a single "contra" person has provided this, despite pages of asking. Refusal to answer, or to provide the rules quotes required, will be taken as concession of position;.

If I have the ability to reroll all failed to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? Yes or No
If I have the ability to reroll 1s to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to hit? Yes or No

Neither are yes no answers. They both have the same answer of "under the right conditions yes, otherwise no".

Same as if I have a model that has had Objuration Mechanicum cast on it making me reroll to hit rolls of 6, do I have a reroll to hit? Yes or No or the same as my answer above...

 FlingitNow wrote:

If I have the ability to reroll all failed to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? Yes or No
If I have the ability to reroll 1s to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to hit? Yes or No

Neither are yes no answers. They both have the same answer of "under the right conditions yes, otherwise no".

Same as if I have a model that has had Objuration Mechanicum cast on it making me reroll to hit rolls of 6, do I have a reroll to hit? Yes or No or the same as my answer above...

Theres still no condition on the blast rerolls other than being able to reroll to hit. If the ability to reroll to has conditionals on itself is not adressd by the blast reroll rules at all. The blast rerolls ask one question to be able to reroll scatter dice. Are you having the ability to reroll to hit rolls or not. Its not asking for the ability to reroll all to hits and its certainly not asking for the ability to be able to reroll without conditions on the reroll.

So i ask again. Where did you find a conditional on the ability to reroll to hit rolls that is asked for in the blast scatter rules? Cite them please.

 Mywik wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

If I have the ability to reroll all failed to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to-hit? Yes or No
If I have the ability to reroll 1s to-hit, do I have the ability to reroll to hit? Yes or No

Neither are yes no answers. They both have the same answer of "under the right conditions yes, otherwise no".

Same as if I have a model that has had Objuration Mechanicum cast on it making me reroll to hit rolls of 6, do I have a reroll to hit? Yes or No or the same as my answer above...

Theres still no condition on the blast rerolls other than being able to reroll to hit. If the ability to reroll to has conditionals on itself is not adressd by the blast reroll rules at all. The blast rerolls ask one question to be able to reroll scatter dice. Are you having the ability to reroll to hit rolls or not. Its not asking for the ability to reroll all to hits and its certainly not asking for the ability to be able to reroll without conditions on the reroll.

So i ask again. Where did you find a conditional on the ability to reroll to hit rolls that is asked for in the blast scatter rules? Cite them please.

Again - as above. The requirement in the rule places NO CONDITIONS on *when* you reroll, just that you *have the ability to* TO reroll

A unit with PE firing at their PE HAS THE ABILITY TO REROLL. This is fact. There is no ambiguity here. Stating otherwise is a strict lie.

Fling, you are inserting a conditional that does not exist. PLease answer Yes or No.
Failure to answer Yes or No will be assumed a concession that you are now discussing a houserule. As such I would ask you to please signify that in your posts, as per the tenets.

A unit with PE firing at their PE HAS THE ABILITY TO REROLL. This is fact. There is no ambiguity here

I disagree. If some one asked you how PE works would it be correct to say "they reroll to hit against their PE". Because that is what you're essentially claiming.

You're asking me to cite rules I've never claimed existed. The rules state in you have the ability to reroll to hit. Currently no model can say "yes I can always reroll to hit" whilst every model can say "yes I can sometimes reroll to hit".

So please prove that your rules are true by proving the previously asked questions. Please explain why certain conditions are OK and others are not and please cite the rules that govern which conditions can be ignored and which hold true because I see no mention on conditions in the rule for rerolling blasts.

The rule is ambiguous as to silent on which conditions apply and which don't. So if you're being consistent then either all conditions apply or none do.

Please show where I havent been consistent.

I havent asked you to explain how PE works. I have asked you, does a model with PE have the *ability* to reroll to-hit. The answer is YES. Fact. Stating otherwise is an untruth.

Note the lack of a requirement on the ability? There is no "amount" of a reroll you must have before you have fulfilled this requirement.

I have proven, using the language the rule is written in, that there is NO CONDITION on "have the ability to reroll to-hit" and therefore HAVING an abilty to reroll to hit gives you reroll scatter

Note: this is NOT the same as "may have" - a PE modelo against its PE model HAS a reroll to hit when firing a non-blast weapon, therefore gets a reroll on blasts against that target. Against its non-PE enemy target it does NOT have an ability to reroll to hit, so does not HAVE a reroll

Present tense, its a killer here.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Please explain why certain conditions are OK and others are not and please cite the rules that govern which conditions can be ignored and which hold true because I see no mention on conditions in the rule for rerolling blasts.

The blast rules tell us that the model has to have the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and that it is then able to choose to do so. A model that doesnt have an ability that grants rerolls on to hit rolls cant rerole. A unit without e.g. prescience (or PE or Similar) doesnt have an ability to reroll to hits and therefor cant.

So the ONLY condition that is asked for is "do you have an ability to reroll to hit rolls". Its not asking if you "are able to obtain one". It asks if you HAVE one. You keep trying to put "having an ability to reroll to hits" as the same as "having the possibility of gaining an ability that allows hit rerolling" which is still nonsense and doesnt support your point at all.

Since the ability to reroll 1s on a hit stays an ability to reroll to hitrolls this condition is fulfilled by preferred enemy and NOT by e.g. having a psycher in your army that "could have cast prescience" on the unit.

So as already stated your argument fails to weaken the pro side of the argument and doesnt even strenghten your point of view.

Ok I just re-read both the rules for PE, and re-rolls with blast weapons. I think the hang up here IMHO is one specifically states when you roll a 1 to hit or wound, and the other is if you have the ability to re-roll you must roll all the dice.

The cruxt of this argument / discussion can be whittled down to is this. How does the ability to re- roll and the stipulation of re-rolling all 1's interact with each other. I can see the side of yes you could re-roll because you have the ability if you roll a 1, at the same time the other side says you don't meet the stipulation of rolling a one since your using scatter dice.

Hiwpi.... No re-roll till its clarified. Quite frankly I could see this go either way. Might be better at the start of a game discuss it, do a dice off and follow that for the game. As for tourneys hopefully they cover it in their own errata.

Chas

Lungpickle wrote:
Whar does PE say about rerolls? Is it one's or all miss's.

Do you roll 1 dice for scatter to get a 1, or two dice and 2 being the lowest achievable.

Iirc PE Is about rolling to hit and wounds of 1.

And what does a BS of 6+ say?
And what does Prescience say?

Why are you denying that PE grants an ability to reroll to hit rolls?

Lungpickle wrote:
Whar does PE say about rerolls? Is it one's or all miss's.

Do you roll 1 dice for scatter to get a 1, or two dice and 2 being the lowest achievable.

Iirc PE Is about rolling to hit and wounds of 1.

Please try to read what was already discussed. Your point here is brought up on every page by someone that didnt take the time to read the actual blasts and reroll rules on p.33.

Following your logic you wont even get a reroll if you CAN reroll ALL MISSES. Since rerolling "only" misses is like "rerolling only 1s" a conditioned reroll which you insist doesnt work on blasts. The actual rule doesnt ask for such a condition. Its a simple "do you have a reroll to hit ability or not" question.

I have asked you, does a model with PE have the *ability* to reroll to-hit. The answer is YES. Fact. Stating otherwise is an untruth

The answer is not yes. That is not true. If the answer was yes then my statement about how PE works would be true. Which it isn't. Therefore what you are saying here according to the rules for PE is false.

The lack of statement of conditions on the reroll scatter rule does not necessarily mean that conditions don't matter. It means either conditions don't matter or all conditions matter.

A unit with PE certainly does have an ability to reroll based on some conditions. One of those is targetting his PE the other is rolling a 1 to hit. I don't see why you think the 2nd condition applies and the first doesn't.

 Mywik wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:


Please try to read what was already discussed. Your point here is brought up on every page by someone that didnt take the time to read the actual blasts and reroll rules on p.33.

Following your logic you wont even get a reroll if you CAN reroll ALL MISSES. Since rerolling "only" misses is like "rerolling only 1s" a conditioned reroll which you insist doesnt work on blasts. The actual rule doesnt ask for such a condition. Its a simple "do you have a reroll to hit ability or not" question.

I have read and do understand what is written in the BRB. If you have guide, prescience twin linked you can re-roll it np. The real question is the the stipulation of needing to roll 1's to get said re-roll is enough to satisfy the statement in the blast re-roll section.

Since one has a stipulation and one is a generalized statement, that seems to be the hang up for a lot of us.

he blast rules tell us that the model has to have the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and that it is then able to choose to do so. A model that doesnt have an ability that grants rerolls on to hit rolls cant rerole. A unit without e.g. prescience (or PE or Similar) doesnt have an ability to reroll to hits and therefor cant.

So the ONLY condition that is asked for is "do you have an ability to reroll to hit rolls". Its not asking if you "are able to obtain one". It asks if you HAVE one. You keep trying to put "having an ability to reroll to hits" as the same as "having the possibility of gaining an ability that allows hit rerolling" which is still nonsense and doesnt support your point at all.

You don't have an ability to reroll to hit with PE or Prescience unless you roll a 1 to hit or fail a to hit roll. Neither of which will happen. So by the logic above then no one gets a reroll. That is your issue you are deciding what conditions apply and what don't. And have yet to provide any rules to clarify which conditions apply and which don't.

So if I have an ammo runt (gives me a reroll to hit once per battle) do my blasts always reroll?

So once again you need to prove:

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to ANY OF THESE to hit ROLLS"

Which you haven't shown with any actual rules. Please cite these rules or concede or admit you are arguing HYWPI.

 FlingitNow wrote:

he blast rules tell us that the model has to have the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and that it is then able to choose to do so. A model that doesnt have an ability that grants rerolls on to hit rolls cant rerole. A unit without e.g. prescience (or PE or Similar) doesnt have an ability to reroll to hits and therefor cant.

So the ONLY condition that is asked for is "do you have an ability to reroll to hit rolls". Its not asking if you "are able to obtain one". It asks if you HAVE one. You keep trying to put "having an ability to reroll to hits" as the same as "having the possibility of gaining an ability that allows hit rerolling" which is still nonsense and doesnt support your point at all.

You don't have an ability to reroll to hit with PE or Prescience unless you roll a 1 to hit or fail a to hit roll. Neither of which will happen. So by the logic above then no one gets a reroll. That is your issue you are deciding what conditions apply and what don't. And have yet to provide any rules to clarify which conditions apply and which don't.

So if I have an ammo runt (gives me a reroll to hit once per battle) do my blasts always reroll?

So once again you need to prove:

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to ANY OF THESE to hit ROLLS"

Which you haven't shown with any actual rules. Please cite these rules or concede or admit you are arguing HYWPI.

When you dont use up the ammo runt do you have the ability to reroll to hit?
When i have the ability to reroll 1s on a hit i have the ability to reroll to hit which fulfills the requirement of blast scatter. Yes.

 Mywik wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

he blast rules tell us that the model has to have the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and that it is then able to choose to do so. A model that doesnt have an ability that grants rerolls on to hit rolls cant rerole. A unit without e.g. prescience (or PE or Similar) doesnt have an ability to reroll to hits and therefor cant.

So the ONLY condition that is asked for is "do you have an ability to reroll to hit rolls". Its not asking if you "are able to obtain one". It asks if you HAVE one. You keep trying to put "having an ability to reroll to hits" as the same as "having the possibility of gaining an ability that allows hit rerolling" which is still nonsense and doesnt support your point at all.

You don't have an ability to reroll to hit with PE or Prescience unless you roll a 1 to hit or fail a to hit roll. Neither of which will happen. So by the logic above then no one gets a reroll. That is your issue you are deciding what conditions apply and what don't. And have yet to provide any rules to clarify which conditions apply and which don't.

So if I have an ammo runt (gives me a reroll to hit once per battle) do my blasts always reroll?

So once again you need to prove:

"Having a reroll to hit = having a reroll to ANY OF THESE to hit ROLLS"

Which you haven't shown with any actual rules. Please cite these rules or concede or admit you are arguing HYWPI.

When you dont use up the ammo runt do you have the ability to reroll to hit?
When i have the ability to reroll 1s on a hit i have the ability to reroll to hit which fulfills the requirement of blast scatter. Yes.

You don't "use" the ammo runt, A model with an ammo runt has the ability to reroll, once per game. It has the ability to reroll which fulfills the requirement of blasts, the once per game is irrelevant.

As you never roll to hit, you can not roll 1's to hit, so you never get a reroll. As you don't fulfill the requirements to reroll blasts, you don't get to reroll them.

it's the same argument for both, they either both allow rerolls at all times, or they both have to meet the criteria to have the reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:
You don't "use" the ammo runt, A model with an ammo runt has the ability to reroll, once per game. It has the ability to reroll which fulfills the requirement of blasts, the once per game is irrelevant.

As you never roll to hit, you can not roll 1's to hit, so you never get a reroll. As you don't fulfill the requirements to reroll blasts, you don't get to reroll them.

it's the same argument for both, they either both allow rerolls at all times, or they both have to meet the criteria to have the reroll.

So then except for Twin-linked, blast weapons can never be re-rolled thus making that rule pointless.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
You don't "use" the ammo runt, A model with an ammo runt has the ability to reroll, once per game. It has the ability to reroll which fulfills the requirement of blasts, the once per game is irrelevant.

As you never roll to hit, you can not roll 1's to hit, so you never get a reroll. As you don't fulfill the requirements to reroll blasts, you don't get to reroll them.

it's the same argument for both, they either both allow rerolls at all times, or they both have to meet the criteria to have the reroll.

So then except for Twin-linked, blast weapons can never be re-rolled thus making that rule pointless.

Out of the rules in the BRB, yes only twin linked can reroll blasts.

That rule is IMO for the odd codex rule like ammo runts or other things that don't fit into the USR's in the BRB.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Out of the rules in the BRB, yes only twin linked can reroll blasts.

That rule is IMO for the odd codex rule like ammo runts or other things that don't fit into the USR's in the BRB.

That would be a RAI argument there, preceded by a lack of reading the blast rules.