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 Abandon wrote:
Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.

Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.

How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.

Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.

Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.

The Rule.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

The Rule as you are stating it.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit, and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

The lack of comma between "To Hit" and the "and chooses", makes the choosing to re-roll a condition of the ability to Re-Roll To Hit.
Adding the comma, makes the chooses to hit a choice allowing you to not re-roll if you don't want to.

With the first reading, you have very few abilities that can re-roll blasts.
With the 2nd reading, you have stupidity like the ammo-runt never being used up, IG getting re-rolls even if orders aren't issued, farseer craziness and so on.

IMO, the Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls rule isn't meant to tell use when/if we can re-rolls, but rather that you must re-roll all or nothing (the scatter die AND distance dice).

This is why it needs a FAQ.

-Matt

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.

How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.

Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.

Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.

And yet there is no choice to reroll, because you can only reroll 1's and you have not rolled any.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
IMO, the Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls rule isn't meant to tell use when/if we can re-rolls, but rather that you must re-roll all or nothing (the scatter die AND distance dice).

This is why it needs a FAQ.

-Matt

Overall, I agree with this.

Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.

So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.

However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.

Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?

FlingitNow wrote:

That is incorrect as I have pointed out. The model must have the ability to reroll To Hit rolls in order to reroll scatter per the Blast rules. Are you arguing just to argue at this point because this has been dis-proven already.

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

It must be the model that has the rule, not that some other unit in your army that might be able to give it to him at some point. Unless the Farseer uses the power on the unit the model does not have any reroll ability (unless it has on from some other source)

There is a large difference between having an ability that allows a reroll and having the possibility of receiving a an ability that allows a reroll. You are making a giant leap in that regard.

So are you saying a Fire Prism model with prescience cast on it doesn't have the ability to reroll? If I cast prescience on a unit the model(s) in that unit, would be able to reroll to hit rolls if they miss with a to hit roll.

Yes or no?

These are conditions for that model to get a reroll. You stated that ALL conditions for a reroll are irrelevant. Why are you saying some conditions are OK and others are not. You are now making the same argument as the people you are disagreeing with.

The RaW here has two correct results:

1) In order to get the reroll on the blasts you must have an unconditional reroll. If so the rule essentially does nothing as no one currently has that (though when written Warp Time would have applied).
2) In order to get the reroll on the blasts you must have a confitional reroll and you get that reroll regardless of whether the conditions are met.

If you are going by the later I don't see how you could state my Fire Prism doesn't get to reroll the scatter just because I haven't met the conditions of failing a to hit roll, having prescience cast on me, having my Farseer have the prescience power or having a Farseer in my army.

Why are some conditions OK and others not?

You are asserting that I am making an argument that I have not which is 'if the model could have a reroll under any conditions' . I said it does not matter that the models ability is conditional. The Blast rule requires the model has the ability, not that it could possibly have it at some undetermined time.

DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.

Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.

So you read the rules for rerolls on page 5? What did they say a reroll was?

 Abandon wrote:

Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.

So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.

However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.

Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?

Maybe, did you roll a 1 to hit?

If so they have a re-roll, if not they do not.

 Abandon wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.

Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.

So you read the rules for rerolls on page 5? What did they say a reroll was?

They tell you how to re-roll, what you can re-roll comes from the context of the twin linked/Prescience/a dozen other rules that tells us that re-roll misses is the base, and one rule to the contrary tells us what is the exception to the rule.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.

How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.

Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.

Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.

The Rule.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

The Rule as you are stating it.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit, and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

The lack of comma between "To Hit" and the "and chooses", makes the choosing to re-roll a condition of the ability to Re-Roll To Hit.
Adding the comma, makes the chooses to hit a choice allowing you to not re-roll if you don't want to.

So you're asserting that you must choose to re-roll to hit on when firing a weapon that cannot roll to hit?
And that makes sense to you? The comma does not need to exist there for the "and chooses" to be conditional on the blast weapon.

With the first reading, you have very few abilities that can re-roll blasts.
With the 2nd reading, you have stupidity like the ammo-runt never being used up, IG getting re-rolls even if orders aren't issued, farseer craziness and so on.

No, not true at all. Very near lying but I'm sure you're just misunderstanding.

rigeld2 wrote:

So you're asserting that you must choose to re-roll to hit on when firing a weapon that cannot roll to hit?
And that makes sense to you? The comma does not need to exist there for the "and chooses" to be conditional on the blast weapon.

Matt wrote:With the first reading, you have very few abilities that can re-roll blasts.
With the 2nd reading, you have stupidity like the ammo-runt never being used up, IG getting re-rolls even if orders aren't issued, farseer craziness and so on.

No, not true at all. Very near lying but I'm sure you're just misunderstanding.

I'm not saying the rule makes sense, I'm saying that's RAW how it's written.
How is your reading not letting in a lot of stupidity to the the rules? (not that my reading makes it work either, as nearly nothing gets to re-roll).

Ammo Runt is in base to base with Shokk Attack Gun, so the Shokk Attack Gun does have a re-roll to hit. Since all that your saying is required is to have the ability to re-roll, I'll not pull the Runt and still get the re-roll under the Blast Rule.
Or your psyker makes me re-roll 6's, and now I can more accurate shots.
My Platoon has a re-roll to hit when I order it to bring it down, so all those... frag grenades are now much more deadly.


Below is How I Would Fix It. Consider this as "proposed rules", and not to be used in the current debate.
IMO, it works a lot better if you treat the roll of the scatter die as the To Hit roll, when firing Blasts. When you don't roll a "Hit", treat it as if you missed, and scatter as per the rules.
Then use then change the statement on blast re-rolls to simply say when you re-roll to hit with blasts, you must re-roll all the dice.
That should clean it up with anything that works when you miss works. Anything that works when you have a trigger (remove grot, pass orders test, etc) works when you complete the trigger action. Anything where you can't complete the trigger action (rolling a 1 with PE, rolling a 6 while psychic maladiction is on you, or having failed your orders test, etc) would mean you don't get a re-roll.

 Abandon wrote:

Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.

So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.

However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.

Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?

My Warrior only has an ability to reroll to hit when he is in CC. He's not in CC when he's firing his Venom Cannon. Hence he has no ability to reroll to hit at the time.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
[Ammo Runt is in base to base with Shokk Attack Gun, so the Shokk Attack Gun does have a re-roll to hit. Since all that your saying is required is to have the ability to re-roll, I'll not pull the Runt and still get the re-roll under the Blast Rule.

I don't have an ork codex to address this well, but the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled.

Or your psyker makes me re-roll 6's, and now I can more accurate shots.

Yes, that's correct.

My Platoon has a re-roll to hit when I order it to bring it down, so all those... frag grenades are now much more deadly.

When you give them bring it down, sure. One whole frag grenade. Ooh.

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
[Ammo Runt is in base to base with Shokk Attack Gun, so the Shokk Attack Gun does have a re-roll to hit. Since all that your saying is required is to have the ability to re-roll, I'll not pull the Runt and still get the re-roll under the Blast Rule.

I don't have an ork codex to address this well, but the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled.

Or your psyker makes me re-roll 6's, and now I can more accurate shots.

Yes, that's correct.

My Platoon has a re-roll to hit when I order it to bring it down, so all those... frag grenades are now much more deadly.

When you give them bring it down, sure. One whole frag grenade. Ooh.

Could be 11 templates (5 grenade launchers, 5 mortars/frag missiles, 1 thrown grenade).

Correct, the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled, and a model with PE doesn't have a re-roll unless you roll a 1 to hit.
What criteria are you using for choosing which requirements are ignored to determine if a model has a re-roll?
What page are those criteria on?



-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Correct, the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled, and a model with PE doesn't have a re-roll unless you roll a 1 to hit.

There's a reroll to hit available on PE.
There's no reroll to hit unless you kill the Runt.

When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.

PE has a reroll to hit just like Prescience, etc. Ammo Runt doesn't give a reroll unless you kill the Runt.

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Correct, the SAG doesn't have a re-roll unless the runt is pulled, and a model with PE doesn't have a re-roll unless you roll a 1 to hit.

There's a reroll to hit available on PE.
There's no reroll to hit unless you kill the Runt.

When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.

PE has a reroll to hit just like Prescience, etc. Ammo Runt doesn't give a reroll unless you kill the Runt.

Wrong again,

The ammo runt does not get removed when you use it's ability. People just remove the runt to signify they used a reroll (but that's not raw) the ammo runt is with the unit/model that bought it for the entire game.

"a model with an ammo runt is allowed to re-roll one to hit roll for a shooting attack, once per game" Nothing about removing it afterwards.

So as long as you bought an ammo runt, you have the ability to reroll right?
Ergo for blasts it meets the criteria and you can reroll the entire game.

rigeld2 wrote:

When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.

So now intent is good enough for you! Broken rules is a subjective assessment. To me a malediction that should make enemy less accurate making them more accurate is obviously broken.

 Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

When you're making an argument that makes rules literally useless, you have to use "obvious intent". The rule exists, therefore it's meant to do something. The obvious intent in this case is to allow things with a reroll to hit to work.

So now intent is good enough for you! Broken rules is a subjective assessment. To me a malediction that should make enemy less accurate making them more accurate is obviously broken.

I've explained why intent sometimes matters.

As for ObjMech, I agree that's the likely intent and would be fine playing it that way...

DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.

So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.

However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.

Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?

Maybe, did you roll a 1 to hit?

If so they have a re-roll, if not they do not.

 Abandon wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Answer this. How does the BRB define a reroll? Does it say Rerolling failures? No. Please actually read the rules for rerolls on page 5 before commenting again.

Please actually understand the context in which the rules are written before commenting again.

So you read the rules for rerolls on page 5? What did they say a reroll was?

They tell you how to re-roll, what you can re-roll comes from the context of the twin linked/Prescience/a dozen other rules that tells us that re-roll misses is the base, and one rule to the contrary tells us what is the exception to the rule.

It's as if the process for rerolling described there is how they define a reroll... unless you know of some other place they define rerolls....

BTW, using these special rules and abilities to define context for special rules/abilities is quite illogical. Unless a rule specifically states how other rules will generally work it is not useful for context for anything but itself.

Baktru wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Baktru wrote:Scything Talons specifically state that they only apply in Close Combat.

So no, my Warrior with a Venom Cannon and a set of Scything Talons doesn't get to re-roll when he fires the Cannon.

However when he is within 6" of the Old Adversary Hive Tyrant, he does. As has been correctly argued by Rigeld and some others.

Does the 'model have the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit' ? does it matter if that ability is conditional on misses, 1s, CC, etc?

My Warrior only has an ability to reroll to hit when he is in CC. He's not in CC when he's firing his Venom Cannon. Hence he has no ability to reroll to hit at the time.

I don't see where it distinguishes between whether or not the ability is usable at the time. A reroll To Hit is not available in any case (ranged or otherwise) as no roll To Hit is made. It only matters that the model has a ability to reroll a To Hit roll. RAI and HYWPI I completely agree with you though. As I said, to the letter RAW is rather ridiculous in this case.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not having the relevant books for the Spirit Mark I can't form an opinion on it.

How is the RAW unclear? Does a mode, with PE have a reroll to hit? It's a yes or no question.

Does a model with PE have a reroll to hit and chooses to do so? It's a Yes or No Question.

Yes, he can choose to re-roll scatter. Since that's where the choice comes in.

And yet there is no choice to reroll, because you can only reroll 1's and you have not rolled any.

Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls

If I reroll all failed to-hit, according to your "reading" of the rules I would be unable to reroll scatter at all, as I have never rolled a failed to-hit. (I NEVER roll to hit when rolling scatter)

Of course this entirely ignores the rules for blasts, so can be safely ignored as a suggested argument. Do you have an argument based in actual rules yet?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls

Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.

You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls

Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.

You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.

And with other abilities you did not miss therefore that whole rule about re-rolling blasts does absolutely nothing. Good job.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls

Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.

You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.

And with other abilities you did not miss therefore that whole rule about re-rolling blasts does absolutely nothing. Good job.

Yet this is still valid raw. The other reading results in almost everyone getting to reroll blasts all the time as they can get a reroll under the right conditions....

Which is dumber?

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet that isnt what the rule actually asks you to do. Again, you are failing to actually read the rules for blasts and rerolls

Perhaps you should reread the Tenets. Not only have I read the rules, I even posted them. And you still have yet to explain how you get a reroll without rolling a 1. Unless you think that Reroll failed to hits = Reroll on 1s. That makes for some interesting rules.

You do not have the "ability" to reroll since you have no 1's, therefore you cannot "choose" to reroll.

So you selective quote to avoid answering, again?

You posted them, and have failed to prove that reroll to-hit (not "to hitS") ISNT satisfied by reroll 1s to-hit. As I have proven that the former is satisfied by the latter, your argument is void.

So yes, again I have to ask - given you are told you NEVER roll to hit, does a model with reroll ALL failed to-hit reroll scatter? According to your made up RAW, they dont get to reroll. Will you actually answer this, so if you say yes they dont reroll (so you are at least consistent in failing to read the rules) you can cling to an absurd position, or will you say no and undermine your PE argument?

So, which is it? Another refusal to answer is considered concession of your stance being a houserule.

This whole argument makes me laugh that it has to still go on myself along with others have repeatedly proven it doesn't work vie the BRB, and yet we are wrong and have to provide citations etc, so tell you what, spacemarines win every battle no matter what because I say so. END OF STORY ( which is exactly what everyone saying PE does for blast weapons on the yes side is doing)

Chris Lysander wrote:
This whole argument makes me laugh that it has to still go on myself along with others have repeatedly proven it doesn't work vie the BRB, and yet we are wrong and have to provide citations etc, so tell you what, spacemarines win every battle no matter what because I say so. END OF STORY ( which is exactly what everyone saying PE does for blast weapons on the yes side is doing)

Erm... not at all?

Have you proven that PE does not get a reroll? Because the rule sure looks like it does.

ERM... clearly you do IF you met the laid down criteria, you DON'T ROLL to hit YOU CANNOT ROLL the 1 required to gain your reroll, show me where in the rule book it states you can ignore a condition

Chris Lysander wrote:
ERM... clearly you do IF you met the laid down criteria, you DON'T ROLL to hit YOU CANNOT ROLL the 1 required to gain your reroll, show me where in the rule book it states you can ignore a condition

So there isn't a single ability (aside from Twin Link) in the game that allows a reroll then?
If there is one without a condition, please reference it.

How about instead of making those of us prove the facts we have proven do some home work yourself and start trying to prove your claims

Because this is getting boring of proving the same thing time and time again. If you cannot provide citation stop trying to prove what you want

Chris Lysander wrote:
How about instead of making those of us prove the facts we have proven do some home work yourself and start trying to prove your claims

I've proven that PE gets a reroll.

Because this is getting boring of proving the same thing time and time again. If you cannot provide citation stop trying to prove what you want

So, by refusing to answer you're agreeing that only Twin Link gets to reroll scatter on Blasts?

I can't believe this one is STILL going.

If you say hey you never rolled a To-Hit so you didn't roll a 1?

Well pray tell, which ability gives the ability to reroll no matter what?

Because all those abilities that let you reroll misses, won't work here either then. You never rolled a To-Hit so you can't have a miss.

Which would mean that only TL gets to re-roll blasts and the whole rule that we are discussing is null and void as nothing in the WH40K universe satisfies it.

When the rule was written Warp Time made you reroll successes and failures.

When the BrB came out nothing had Vector Dancer so that rule did nothing until the Eldar codex came out. Likewise I believe Missile Lock still does nothing as no unit has it (please correct me if I'm wrong).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those arguing for PE granting rerolls means that basically every unit in the game rerolls blasts all the time. Is no one other than Twin linked getting the benefit really dumber than everyone getting to reroll scatter all the time (because your enemy could have Objuration Mechanicum).

That's a bit of hyperbole there Fling, not every unit has a re-roll to hit.

This could go for hundreds of post, however if you don't roll to hit and don't generate a 1 then NO there's no reroll. That's it simple as it gets.