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Chris Lysander wrote:

lol cant win your argument with rules quotes so you resolve tothe "im telling on you technique'

As a general rule, Dakka's Mod Team vastly prefers the 'I'm telling on you' technique to the 'Insult everyone who disagrees with me' technique. Please refer to Dakka's rules. Specifically, the first one.

You might also want to reconsider casting doubt on the age of those arguing against you while at the same time resorting to insults over a disagreement about the rules for a game. If you can't keep a level head while discussing this sort of thing, it might me time to take a break from the computer.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.

i say no
the rules say no

look at PE in the rule book which specifically stipulates you re roll rolls to hit of 1 (not got BRB to hand so cant say exact page) nice and clear on what you can re roll, not a 2 3 4 5 or scatter dice but 1's

then you look at page 33 blast and large blast paragraph 2 which clearly stipulates you don't role to hit

so when we ask does PE have any effect on barrage weapons the answer is nice and clear NO

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.

i say no
the rules say no

Funny...

look at PE in the rule book which specifically stipulates you re roll rolls to hit of 1

You say no, but then say that it does... I don't understand.

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.

i say no
the rules say no

look at PE in the rule book which specifically stipulates you re roll rolls to hit of 1 (not got BRB to hand so cant say exact page) nice and clear on what you can re roll, not a 2 3 4 5 or scatter dice but 1's

then you look at page 33 blast and large blast paragraph 2 which clearly stipulates you don't role to hit

so when we ask does PE have any effect on barrage weapons the answer is nice and clear NO

So a re-roll To Hit is not a re-roll To Hit?

If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.

The trigger for the re-roll is not met, but the possibility of the re-roll gives you a 2nd chance at scatter?

-Matt

rigeld2 wrote:
It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.

PE does not grant a reroll unless conditions are met and you cannot meet those conditions with scatter dice.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.

Depending on the wording of Ammo Runt...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's really a yes or no question - does PE grant a re-roll to hit?
You're saying no. The rules say yes.

PE does not grant a reroll unless conditions are met and you cannot meet those conditions with scatter dice.

It's a yes or no question.

Then no. There are no 1's on the board to trigger PE.

Fragile wrote:
Then no. There are no 1's on the board to trigger PE.

That's not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not PE grants a re-roll. If you answer no, I'd like you to quote PE.

That is the question at hand. Your trying to take part of a rule and apply it as a whole. That like saying Stealth (ruins) is the same thing as Stealth. The rolling of the 1 is what grants the reroll. You cannot roll a 1 on scatter die. You have no way to "gain" the reroll permitted by PE, therefore the result stands.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Then no. There are no 1's on the board to trigger PE.

That's not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not PE grants a re-roll. If you answer no, I'd like you to quote PE.

glad i now have my rule book to hand but perhaps try getting your own rule book out and looking it up in future

taking the specific relevant part of this rule only:
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule r-rolls failed To Hit and To wound rolls of 1 if attacking its preferred enemy.

So Yes it does get a reroll IF you meet set criteria, since you cannot roll a To Hit dice for the template you cannot get a To Hit roll of 1 and therefore don't get it

going back to my earlier point of If/Then statements

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a roll to hit?

regardless of what 1 or 2 people want to say no. if you can't roll a one to hit you can't get the PE re roll ability. it is nice and simple logic when you apply logic to it.

Simple logic also dictates that if you don't roll to hit you cannot fail a roll to hit. I know of no ability that lets you re-roll all to-hit rolls, only failures in some fashion or another. By applying your own "simple logic" nothing gives you a re-roll until you fail a to-hit roll so nothing will get a scatter re-roll per the blast rules. Perfectly logical and I applaud you for your ability to reason things out but this also makes the rule non-functional. The obvious intent is that the rule will function in some way so the next logical step would be to redefine the parameters, entities and values applicable to the matter at hand while remaining within the limits of possible meanings the rule may have been attempting to convey until a interpretation can be found that is both logical and functional.

What you have been stating indicates you believe the rule requires a solid concrete ability to re-roll (right now) needs to be in place to get the scatter re-roll but no unit has that. All re-rolls are limited in some way even if only to re-rolling failures.

A more liberal view on the wording 'ability to re-roll' would work out logically and functionally. PE and indeed every re-roll causing ability has the potential to allow a re-roll therefore if all you are looking for is the ability to re-roll without actually making a to-hit roll they all have it (see Schrodinger's Cat).

Also of note, I see no relevance regarding the rules for twin-linked. That is only one SR that allows re-rolls and that it has it's own rules for blasts has nothing to do with PE or any of the others.

Fragile wrote:
That is the question at hand. Your trying to take part of a rule and apply it as a whole. That like saying Stealth (ruins) is the same thing as Stealth. The rolling of the 1 is what grants the reroll. You cannot roll a 1 on scatter die. You have no way to "gain" the reroll permitted by PE, therefore the result stands.

Therefore no re-roll ability applies as you must fail a to-hit roll to be able to re-roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Then no. There are no 1's on the board to trigger PE.

That's not the question at hand.
The question is whether or not PE grants a re-roll. If you answer no, I'd like you to quote PE.

glad i now have my rule book to hand but perhaps try getting your own rule book out and looking it up in future

I have. Perhaps you could try and be less insulting - particularly after being warned by a mod?

taking the specific relevant part of this rule only:
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule r-rolls failed To Hit and To wound rolls of 1 if attacking its preferred enemy.

So Yes it does get a reroll IF you meet set criteria, since you cannot roll a To Hit dice for the template you cannot get a To Hit roll of 1 and therefore don't get it

Templates != blast markers. Please use correct terms when discussing rules.
Tell me - if Twin Linked didn't have a specific rule, would you allow it to re-roll the scatter dice?

going back to my earlier point of If/Then statements

So if you are granted a reroll of failed to hit rolls, that wouldnt let you reroll scatter?

INteresting "logic", as it renders the entire section on blasts and rerolls moot.

I'll follow the ruels that say IF You have a reroll to hit (you do, just only on certain rolls - which the rule doesnt actually state matters) then you get to reroll scatter

Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.

Why are you still arguing? We already know how GW meant it to be played.

 FlingitNow wrote:

If as you say the blast weapon rules don't care about criteria only that there is a possibility of a reroll, then Deathwing get rerolls with their plasma cannons against Necrons (and indeed everyone else).

This really needs more spotlight.

If you say that PE lets you re-roll scatters due to the "potential for re-rolling"

then what Flingit wrote seem's true.

Deathwing has the POSSIBILITY to reroll, the limitation being against necrons, but according to some of the logic in here they can reroll their blast's against anyone.

 Crimson wrote:
Why are you still arguing? We already know how GW meant it to be played.

Some people think it was just a passing comment. I do not.

Quark wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.

You are granted a re-roll if you miss.
You are granted a re-roll if you roll a 1 to-hit.

Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?

rigeld2 wrote:

Quark wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.

You are granted a re-roll if you miss.
You are granted a re-roll if you roll a 1 to-hit.

Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?

because being able to re-roll Blast's with PE creates absurdities and GW have expressly said that rerolling Blasts with limited re-rolls (such as Spiritmark) is not allowed.

rigeld2 wrote:

Quark wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.

You are granted a re-roll if you miss.
You are granted a re-roll if you roll a 1 to-hit.

Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?

You are granted a reroll if you target the PE unit.

Why is one conditional "allowed" but the other not?

Jacob29 wrote:
because being able to re-roll Blast's with PE creates absurdities

Like...
And absurdities change how the rules are written?

and GW have expressly said that rerolling Blasts with limited re-rolls (such as Spiritmark) is not allowed.

No, they've said (in a supplement I don't have access to so I can't verify wording) that the Spiritmark doesn't allow re-rolling blasts.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jacob29 wrote:
because being able to re-roll Blast's with PE creates absurdities

Like...
And absurdities change how the rules are written?

and GW have expressly said that rerolling Blasts with limited re-rolls (such as Spiritmark) is not allowed.

No, they've said (in a supplement I don't have access to so I can't verify wording) that the Spiritmark doesn't allow re-rolling blasts.

Like Preferred Enemy (Necrons) giving re-rollable Scatter dice even when NOT against Necrons.

The primary argument is that PE allows a re-roll, and all Blast's need to be re-rolled is the possibility.


Yes and Spiritmark allows the re-roll of 1's on a marked target. Near identical to PE.

Jacob29 wrote:
Like Preferred Enemy (Necrons) giving re-rollable Scatter dice even when NOT against Necrons.

There's a difference of course, but you can ignore it if you want.

Yes and Spiritmark allows the re-roll of 1's on a marked target. Near identical to PE.

Near identical, and yet different. It's almost like things that aren't the same lead to different results.

Quark wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.

Yes, and BS10 rerolls all misses - ALL 1s
PE rerolls ALL 1s

Both have conditions. The rule in question places no conditions on "how much" of a reroll you need to have in order for you to gain rerolls

If you think otherwise, prove that the rule in question actually requires you to be able to reroll "All" misses. It never states that

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.

Depending on the wording of Ammo Runt...

Ammo runt says you have to use and remove the ammo runt to get the re-roll.
PE says you have to roll a 1 to get the re-roll.

When you fire a barrage with PE, you have not rolled a 1, but you are re-rolling.
So logic followed if PE doesn't have to meet its requirement (roll a 1), ammo runt does not need to meet its requirement (remove runt).



If a Riptide gets Marker lights to boost it to BS6 (re-rolling 1's to hit) and fires the Nova Charged Ion Cannon, you are all saying it re-rolls scatter dice?
Tau commander with 1 marker light re-rolls Air Bursting Frag and Overcharged Cyclic Ion Blaster?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If you don't take the trigger into account for re-rolls of scatter dice, then Orks can re-roll the scatter die for Lobbas without actually using the ammo runt.

Depending on the wording of Ammo Runt...

Ammo runt says you have to use and remove the ammo runt to get the re-roll.
PE says you have to roll a 1 to get the re-roll.

When you fire a barrage with PE, you have not rolled a 1, but you are re-rolling.
So logic followed if PE doesn't have to meet its requirement (roll a 1), ammo runt does not need to meet its requirement (remove runt).

Not quite the same thing.

If a Riptide gets Marker lights to boost it to BS6 (re-rolling 1's to hit) and fires the Nova Charged Ion Cannon, you are all saying it re-rolls scatter dice?

Yes, absolutely.

Tau commander with 1 marker light re-rolls Air Bursting Frag and Overcharged Cyclic Ion Blaster?

Sure, if you're being accurate about what those do (not completely up on the Tau codex)

I did not realise that Farseers where that good. As long as I take guide as a power all blast weapons in my army get reroll on a scatter as those units could get a reroll to hit if I cast guide on them and we already know the if statement is irrelevant...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Quark wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rerolling 1s to hit can be thought of as similar to a BS10 model. WOuld you allow a BS10 model reroll on scatter? What about Bjorn?

It's not the same, from a logic standpoint. BS10 (and BS6) allows you to reroll all misses, and tells you what the requirement to hit is the second time. Reroll 1s is just that - you can only reroll to hit of 1, not any other result. Reroll 1s has extra criteria that no other type of reroll has.

Yes, and BS10 rerolls all misses - ALL 1s
PE rerolls ALL 1s

Both have conditions. The rule in question places no conditions on "how much" of a reroll you need to have in order for you to gain rerolls

If you think otherwise, prove that the rule in question actually requires you to be able to reroll "All" misses. It never states that

BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.
PE rerolls misses of 1 only. That is conditional. You don't have the "ability to re-roll to hit", you have the "ability to re-roll to hit of 1".

I'm not sure why we're still arguing when Iyanden book has showed intent. It says Spirit Mark doesn't work for Hemlock Wraithfighter. Spirit Mark exact wording:

All Wraithguards, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against spirit-marked units

That is no different than what Preferred Enemy gives for To Hit.

Quark - and, again you have created a requirement that simply does not exist in the actual, written rules

There is NO REQUIREMENT for you to be able to reroll ALL dice in order to gain a reroll. That is totally and utterly made up by you as a requirement.

So, again: you are asked if you are able to reroll to hit. I answer YES - I can reroll to hits of a 1. You never asked can I reroll ALL rolls to hit, or all 1,2 and 3, or anything like that - you just asked "CAN I" reroll to hit. I can.

Therefore I get a reroll

Please find a rule that shows that this is not true. Page and para. You have yet to do so, as you have failed to parse the question at.

Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.

And yet would still require a to-hit roll. It's absolutely conditional.

PE rerolls misses of 1 only. That is conditional. You don't have the "ability to re-roll to hit", you have the "ability to re-roll to hit of 1".

I'm sorry you can't tell why that underlined bit is irrelevant, but it is.

I'm not sure why we're still arguing when Iyanden book has showed intent. It says Spirit Mark doesn't work for Hemlock Wraithfighter. Spirit Mark exact wording:

All Wraithguards, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Wraithknights and Hemlock Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 against spirit-marked units

That is no different than what Preferred Enemy gives for To Hit.

Because that's for one specific rule and not across all rules.