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Just a couple of clarifying questions for those that say PE allows rerolls for barrage.


With PE, can you get a reroll if you roll a to hit of anything but a 1?

If not, how do you have the ability to reroll required by barrage?

If the 1 is not required then is the prefered enemy of the proper type required to give a reroll or does simply having PE give you a reroll and therefor work on any unit?

Gravmyr wrote:
With PE, can you get a reroll if you roll a to hit of anything but a 1?

With BS6 can you get a re-roll if you roll a to-hit of anything but a miss?

Why is a miss different from a 1? Where is the double standard coming from - both situations are contingent on something (one a miss, one rolling a 1).

rigeld2 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
With PE, can you get a reroll if you roll a to hit of anything but a 1?

With BS6 can you get a re-roll if you roll a to-hit of anything but a miss?

Why is a miss different from a 1? Where is the double standard coming from - both situations are contingent on something (one a miss, one rolling a 1).

Is that considered a true re-roll or an "extra" roll? Because a true re-roll should allow you to use your same BS, while the BS6+ roll forces you to roll to target a different(higher) value then the original To Hit roll. I don't have my BRB with me at the moment so I'm not sure how the rules actually state that particular piece.

Hell, it's worded like PE.

If a model has BS6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:
Hell, it's worded like PE.

If a model has BS6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

To be fair, that is probably because a roll of a 2+ will hit with a BS6 or higher.

I think there is a little ambiguity and I can see where both sides are coming from. But nevermind me, carry on boys.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jacob29 wrote:
Like Preferred Enemy (Necrons) giving re-rollable Scatter dice even when NOT against Necrons.

There's a difference of course, but you can ignore it if you want.

What is the difference?

It follows the same logic that has already been introduced.

Yes and Spiritmark allows the re-roll of 1's on a marked target. Near identical to PE.

Near identical, and yet different. It's almost like things that aren't the same lead to different results.

Jacob29 wrote:
The fact is that GW clearly don't intend for PE to let you reroll blasts. They don't say "Spiritmark has no effect on Hemlocks" they give a helpful tip that "don't worry it won't do anything".

They clearly intend for Spiritmark not to re-roll blasts.
Their intent with regard to PE is unclear, you assumption notwithstanding.

And their intent is only relevant insofar as its FAQed.

I'm not arguing either way as it doesn't affect me. I was simply extending the logic you are putting forth. Can you answer my other two questions so I can see where you are coming from more clearly? As well as how far this extends. Can I reroll scatter for a blast if I have a Chronometron in the unit?

rigeld2 wrote:
Hell, it's worded like PE.

If a model has BS6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

So do you feel models with a BS6+ automatically get to re-roll blast scatter?

Yes.

Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.

Actually that is conditional. The two conditions being:

1. You must roll to hit.
2. You must miss.

Which is exactly the same as any ability that lets you re-roll all misses.
And the conditions for PE:

1. You must roll two hit.
2. You must miss.
3. You must roll a 1

So you're saying three conditions is two many to qualify for the scatter re-roll but two conditions is not? That seems quite arbitrary.

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Here's the reasoning. Since the ability to re-roll is never determined in any case(BS 10, PE, etc.) because the to-hit roll is never made all possible outcomes of the to-hit roll remain true per(purred) Schrodinger's Cat. This means you both do get to re-roll the to-hit roll and you do not get to re-roll the to-hit roll.... that your not making. Both outcomes being true and false at the same time because it is undetermined... as in, you do not make the roll just like you can't open the box. As the ability to re-roll is true you get to re-roll your scatter dice.

^^^this is upon the premise that it actually means 'if the model has the ability to re-roll a to-hit roll in this shooting attack'. the BRB actually does not say this.

Pure RAW though only says that the model must have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls. It does not say in this attack nor does it even say to-hit rolls for shooting attacks... Taken without assumption this includes CC attacks as well. I mean does a model that re-rolls failed to-hit rolls in CC re-roll to-hit rolls? Yes it does. It's ridiculous I know that the scything talons on a Tyranid Warrior would allow it to re-roll scatter for the barbed strangler it's carrying and I would never attempt this in a game but if you want straight RAW all you have to do is check the qualifiers for the rule of which they only list two...

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

1. It must have the ability to re-roll rolls to-hit(it's not specific so any rolls To Hit count)
2. You must choose to re-roll

That's it... Pure RAW answer, if the model can reroll any To Hit rolls it can reroll scatter. As for RAI and HYWPI.... well...

Abandon following that logic any army containing a psyker that has prescience could reroll will ALL blast weapons because they COULD get a reroll. Indeed you could go further to any unit in any codex that contains a psyker that can roll divination or has a battle brother that can roll divination can re roll all blast weapons all the time (if I had selected this psyker etc and as we have stated if statements are irrelevant).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Abandon following that logic any army containing a psyker that has prescience could reroll will ALL blast weapons because they COULD get a reroll. Indeed you could go further to any unit in any codex that contains a psyker that can roll divination or has a battle brother that can roll divination can re roll all blast weapons all the time (if I had selected this psyker etc and as we have stated if statements are irrelevant).

Incorrect, the model must have the ability...

 Abandon wrote:

Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.

Actually that is conditional. The two conditions being:

1. You must roll to hit.
2. You must miss.
3. You must roll a 1.

Abandon, I fixed that for you after re-reading BS 6+ (which says you only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit).

You only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit with BS 6+ because a 2-6 already hits and there is no need to re-roll.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Quark wrote:
BS10 rerolls all misses - that just happens to be only 1s. That is not conditional.

Actually that is conditional. The two conditions being:

1. You must roll to hit.
2. You must miss.
3. You must roll a 1.

Abandon, I fixed that for you after re-reading BS 6+ (which says you only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit).

I'm aware, was using his words for it to better make the point that it does not matter. All rerolls come with conditions.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit with BS 6+ because a 2-6 already hits and there is no need to re-roll.

That's your assumption - and logically it fits. They did not say, "If you miss you can re-roll" or anything to that effect however.
Use actual rules for your argument please, not assumptions.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only get the re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit with BS 6+ because a 2-6 already hits and there is no need to re-roll.

That's your assumption - and logically it fits. They did not say, "If you miss you can re-roll" or anything to that effect however.
Use actual rules for your argument please, not assumptions.

The only reason to gain a re-roll is because you missed. This is apparent in the 40K BRB such as the Divination power Prescience, Twin Linked etc.

All re-rolls are because you missed and gain a re-roll to try and hit.

I was just clarifying that the re-roll to hit on a 1 for BS6+ is because 2-6 hits and there is no reason to re-roll.

 Abandon wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Abandon following that logic any army containing a psyker that has prescience could reroll will ALL blast weapons because they COULD get a reroll. Indeed you could go further to any unit in any codex that contains a psyker that can roll divination or has a battle brother that can roll divination can re roll all blast weapons all the time (if I had selected this psyker etc and as we have stated if statements are irrelevant).

Incorrect, the model must have the ability...

And the model does if the psyker casts prescience on his unit. So our conditions are:

1) you must cast prescience on that unit
2) you must roll to hit
3) you must miss

It is just a condition of getting the reroll for that model and as we know all conditions are irrelevant. Likewise a model with PE (chaos space marines) gets his reroll on the blast no matter his opponent. Or indeed any codex that has access to a psyker with divination:

1. You must select a psyker in your army
2. You must get the prescience psychic power
3. You must cast it on the unit firing
4. You must roll to hit
5. You must miss

Again if we're ignoring ALL conditions the above is true.

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So Preferred Enemy doesn't grant a roll to hit?

regardless of what 1 or 2 people want to say no. if you can't roll a one to hit you can't get the PE re roll ability. it is nice and simple logic when you apply logic to it.

Is the ability to reroll 1s on a hit an ability to reroll hit rolls?

Please only answer that question without insults or "holier than thou" attitude.

Does the model have a reroll to hit? Then it gets a reroll on scatter.

Can someone on the "no" side please find where there is a requirement in the rules on "rerolls and blasts" for you to be able to reroll "all failed", or some other such verbiage, before you can claim a reroll on scatter?

Page and para would be hlpeful. Or, the "no" side could concede their lack of a rules based argument.

Hmmm now I think I just want to revive StrawMarine Bob for a moment.

Say that due to some enemy action (a malediction that makes it so, some special terrain rule, or anything), StrawMarine Bob and his unit have to reroll To Hit rolls of 6.

StrawMarine Bob fires his ML as a frag missile at a unit of gaunts and it scatters wildly. Can he re-roll the scatter dice?

The gist is then that any reroll to hit at all allows scatter dice rerolls. K.

Gravmyr wrote:
The gist is then that any reroll to hit at all allows scatter dice rerolls. K.

Yes, because that is all the rule actually requires - that you have a reroll to hit.

It doesnt say "reroll ALL hits, ALL the time, and then you get to reroll scatter"

So indeed, if you havea "bad" reroll - reroll all successful to-hit rolls, for example (to just extend the example further) then this also fulfils the requirement of "having" a reroll to-hit, and would allow you to reroll scatter.

Which is, of course, quite silly, but is literally the only RAW answer.

Because if you say otherwise, then exactly "how much" of a reroll to-hit do you need to have to qualify for a reroll on scatter? is all misses sufficient? What about (on a BS2 model) all 1s and 2s? Or, in this example, Preferred Enemy?
There is no textual or contextual evidence for any specific requirement being the "standard" we should follow.

Preferred Enemy allows the unit with that rule to reroll To Hit rolls of 1.

Blasts of any sort use the Scatter dice plus 2D6s. For Blast weapons the only dice that counts for a Hit is the little target symbol. If a big arrow is rolled the shot does not hit, though the 2D6 can be ignored (in most cases) if they add up to equal to or less than the BS of the firer.

Thus Preferred Enemy will NOT work on the To Hit component of Blast Weapons, as the To Hit part is not a number, it is a function of the dice with arrows on it. But the rerolling of To Wound rolls of 1 would be permitted by Preferred Enemy.

Lord Krungharr - did you read any of the preceding thread, or indeed the rules covering blasts and rerolls?

It doesnt look like you did. Please do so, and come back with an argument that takes note of the relevant rules.

Because if you say otherwise, then exactly "how much" of a reroll to-hit do you need to have to qualify for a reroll on scatter? is all misses sufficient? What about (on a BS2 model) all 1s and 2s? Or, in this example, Preferred Enemy?
There is no textual or contextual evidence for any specific requirement being the "standard" we should follow.

Hence any unit in an army that has access to divination gets rerolls on all blast weapons all the time.

Which is, of course, quite silly, but is literally the only RAW answer.

And hence why RaW is not helpful here when trying to understand what the actual rule is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So are we finally agreed? Either you get rerolls from PE but that means basically every army has rerolls on scatter in every game all the time. Or that as the rule states and GW have confirmed only if you have a flat reroll do you get to reroll scatter.

The "If anyone has divination" thing is just silly.

If my Bioplasma Carnifex for instance does not have anything cast upon him that allows rerolls of any kind, clearly the model does not have the ability to reroll at the time of the shot, and cannot reroll a miss with the Plasma.

However I do agree with Nos et al, if the Swarmolord gives the Carnifex Preferred Enemy, he HAS an ability to reroll. Granted, only on a 1, but he has the ability. RAW then that does mean I can reroll the scatter on his bioplasma. I think here it still makes some sense, but clearly it doesn't if for some reason he had an ability that forces to reroll all hits but hey... The rule still says so.

Or that as the rule states and GW have confirmed only if you have a flat reroll do you get to reroll scatter.

Please cite the portion of the rule that states that you only get to reroll when you have a "flat" reroll.

Also is the ability to reroll ones on a hit an ability to reroll to hit?

Yes an ability to reroll 1s is a conditional ability to reroll.

Does someone with PE CSMs get a reroll against Necrons?