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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, porn isn't known to be...pleasant to women. When I see that statement, I don't see it so much as "men need to be subjugated" as "the fact that a type of entertainment exists wherein a women is poorly treated is disturbing."

Statements like that annoy me. Yes there is porn where women are 'subjugated' by men but there is also porn where men are subjugated women, women by women etc etc etc. Porn is one of the most inclusive areas of human endeavor, there is porn for everyone and its accessable to anyone who has access to the internet (and knows how to bypass filters).

 Palindrome wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, porn isn't known to be...pleasant to women. When I see that statement, I don't see it so much as "men need to be subjugated" as "the fact that a type of entertainment exists wherein a women is poorly treated is disturbing."

Statements like that annoy me. Yes there is porn where women are 'subjugated' by men but there is also porn where men are subjugated women, women by women etc etc etc. Porn is one of the most inclusive areas of human endeavor, there is porn for everyone and its accessable to anyone who has access to the internet (and knows how to bypass filters).

Oh, I never said that men weren't subjugated in porn. I was just trying to put Andrea's quote in context, that porn = mistreatment of women, when in reality it's more varied than that.
Now that I read the rest of her quotes though, that statement may not have been in context of porn after all :/

That thing about child birth made my head hurt...

 Lynata wrote:

Spoiler:

Funny thing is often times girls make fun of each other a lot too. Somehow we all imagine this terrible talk is just of the other gender but often it comes from the same gender. I imagine women are infinitely more worried about how they look than their boyfriends/husbands. Girls often times make fun of the girls that don't fit their groups just as boys get made fun of for being scrawny by the other guys. One example of women making fun of other women is about thighs and the supposed 'thigh gap' for younger women which is weird. Guys really couldn't give a sh*t about thighs. Also I personally have never wanted a skinny woman above all other women. I'd be afraid they'd break like a twig. I think that's all female perception that skinny equals pretty. I'd much prefer a curvy girl. Course i'll probably be insulted for saying that.

Remember also guys don't have it great all the time either. When I was young and crying over a family member that died she said not to cry because i'm a boy. I heard another middle aged woman say similar when I was in high school. Guys often also can or can't do some things for the threat of being picked on by guys often. Being a scrawny wimp gets you picked on and not every woman wants that. My half sister admittedly a little over 50 wants all men to open doors for her. At a bar if a guy flirts with a woman it's often considered normal for him to buy her a drink and possibly food (both sexes often consider this normal). Sometimes it's considered good when a guy buys a dinner for a woman regardless of the outcome. I mean sheesh if I could get free good food and possibly sex i'd do it in a heartbeat and sometimes the sex is entirely your choice too. You gotta admit that's good treatment and in ways too good.

It'd be nice if feminism also talks about equal treatment for things that they get too good treatment in and trying to make those equal to men. The funny things is even in some other times women don't always have it bad. They don't have to fight in wars where millions die often times (this is being changed but it's still not by a lot). Also for stuff like the titanic women and children left first on all the boats. Where the men stayed and well died.

Besides there are women which are totally beautiful that say they're ugly or feel unattractive while wearing a skimpy outfit in a picture. If a guy should say something perverted to all that and get blamed for it then that is total bull sh*t. So yeah sometimes these comments are totally provoked and they're not all bad. I wish I could get free encouragement some days.

I think people should avoid is thinking feminism is some kind of men Vs women epic slam down.

nomotog wrote:
I think people should avoid is thinking feminism is some kind of men Vs women epic slam down.

Sadly some people probably do and it tends to go out like that regardless of the original intentions.

nomotog wrote:
I think people should avoid is thinking feminism is some kind of men Vs women epic slam down.

It can be though, I was trawling a few feminist sites a while back and found a small number have a rule that you cannot post if you are male. Now that's equal.

I don't have a problem with moderate feminists - you should be proud of who you are and should have the oportunity to build youself (whatever groups you identify with) up; but if you think feminists at large are seeking perfect equality with men - that seems like it's a bit silly. Where are the feminists telling young women to stop going to college quite so much, so the gender numbers even out? Everyone should be able to seek advantage, but don't dress it up as some noble crusade, that's when it starts taking on the mantle of zealotry.

 Bromsy wrote:
I don't have a problem with moderate feminists - you should be proud of who you are and should have the oportunity to build youself (whatever groups you identify with) up; but if you think feminists at large are seeking perfect equality with men - that seems like it's a bit silly. Where are the feminists telling young women to stop going to college quite so much, so the gender numbers even out? Everyone should be able to seek advantage, but don't dress it up as some noble crusade, that's when it starts taking on the mantle of zealotry.

Telling women not to go to collage so things can even out is quite silly. It would be much better to look at the issues men are experiencing leads to them earning fewer degrees and think of ways you can remove or reduce them.

nomotog wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I don't have a problem with moderate feminists - you should be proud of who you are and should have the oportunity to build youself (whatever groups you identify with) up; but if you think feminists at large are seeking perfect equality with men - that seems like it's a bit silly. Where are the feminists telling young women to stop going to college quite so much, so the gender numbers even out? Everyone should be able to seek advantage, but don't dress it up as some noble crusade, that's when it starts taking on the mantle of zealotry.

Telling women not to go to collage so things can even out is quite silly. It would be much better to look at the issues men are experiencing leads to them earning fewer degrees and think of ways you can remove or reduce them.

So, you agree that feminists aren't working towards absolute equality between the genders then? Good, I'm glad we can move past that bit of nonsense.

nomotog wrote:
I think people should avoid is thinking feminism is some kind of men Vs women epic slam down.

But thanks too some fundamentalist and the media this image is conveyed.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, porn isn't known to be...pleasant to women. When I see that statement, I don't see it so much as "men need to be subjugated" as "the fact that a type of entertainment exists wherein a women is poorly treated is disturbing."

Porn is one of the few "work enviroments" were females get payed more than the males.

 Bromsy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I don't have a problem with moderate feminists - you should be proud of who you are and should have the oportunity to build youself (whatever groups you identify with) up; but if you think feminists at large are seeking perfect equality with men - that seems like it's a bit silly. Where are the feminists telling young women to stop going to college quite so much, so the gender numbers even out? Everyone should be able to seek advantage, but don't dress it up as some noble crusade, that's when it starts taking on the mantle of zealotry.

Telling women not to go to collage so things can even out is quite silly. It would be much better to look at the issues men are experiencing leads to them earning fewer degrees and think of ways you can remove or reduce them.

So, you agree that feminists aren't working towards absolute equality between the genders then? Good, I'm glad we can move past that bit of nonsense.

Nice strawman you have built there.

Equality for both genders means both genders get the same chances and opportunities. Not that everything is even between both genders. By the standard you have proposed if more women are born than men we should start shooting women if we are striving towards equality.

Seaward wrote:Feminism isn't about equality; it's about gaining advantage, favor, selective treatment.

And do you have a source for this outlandish claim, or are you just spouting closet-misogynist web propaganda?

For the time being, dictionaries and wikipedia are disagreeing with your assessment, so perhaps rather than suggesting that feminists ought to look for a different term, we should instead look for a proper label for the people you are referring to. Or, instead, simply use the correct words already in existence: misandrists subscribing to female chauvinism.

flamingkillamajig wrote:Funny thing is often times girls make fun of each other a lot too.

Absolutely - this is strongly connected to what gender roles a society is propagating, though. This can also become problematic when you have individual women try to "fit in" better with the males by adopting "traditional values" and attacking other women for moving outside what is considered social norm, essentially trying to earn greater acceptance from their male peers by "betraying" their own gender. An example of where this phenomenon occurs is military forces that are transitioning towards equality; in fact it is especially strong here because of the strong sense of belonging that permeates a unit.
A lot of men make fun of other men for the very same reasons, just in their case they are following machismo - exactly what the latter part of your post was referring to.

Tearing down gender roles would, I think, do a lot of good for free expression regardless of one's sex. How many men are afraid of wearing pink because their friends would consider it "g*y"? Hell, even on dakka we have certain members calling other male players weird because they're playing a "girl army" like SoB. Geez.

flamingkillamajig wrote:The funny things is even in some other times women don't always have it bad. They don't have to fight in wars where millions die often times (this is being changed but it's still not by a lot).

This is highly circumstantial - what about the women who wanted to fight, but were not allowed to? Do you know how many females fought in wars throughout the world disguised as men?

flamingkillamajig wrote:It'd be nice if feminism also talks about equal treatment for things that they get too good treatment in and trying to make those equal to men.

If you're looking around the internet, some feminists are pushing those agendas, too. Equality goes both ways, after all, and every true feminist should agree on this if put to the test.
It's probably not a "core demand" (as in: talked about by the majority) because these things are not as controversial in light of the existing inequality - though in many cases likely also because it is a human flaw to only perceive negative things if oneself is affected by them. This is the most probable reason for those posters in this thread argueing against feminism, too.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I don't have a problem with moderate feminists - you should be proud of who you are and should have the oportunity to build youself (whatever groups you identify with) up; but if you think feminists at large are seeking perfect equality with men - that seems like it's a bit silly. Where are the feminists telling young women to stop going to college quite so much, so the gender numbers even out? Everyone should be able to seek advantage, but don't dress it up as some noble crusade, that's when it starts taking on the mantle of zealotry.

Telling women not to go to collage so things can even out is quite silly. It would be much better to look at the issues men are experiencing leads to them earning fewer degrees and think of ways you can remove or reduce them.

So, you agree that feminists aren't working towards absolute equality between the genders then? Good, I'm glad we can move past that bit of nonsense.

Nice strawman you have built there.

Equality for both genders means both genders get the same chances and opportunities. Not that everything is even between both genders. By the standard you have proposed if more women are born than men we should start shooting women if we are striving towards equality.

That isn't a strawman. That is me responding to what people have said in this thread - that Feminists are seeking equality between the sexes. Not the same chances, or opportunities - equality.

 Bromsy wrote:

[That isn't a strawman. That is me responding to what people have said in this thread - that Feminists are seeking equality between the sexes. Not the same chances, or opportunities - equality.

I think most people think of this definition when using equality in discussions like this one:

e·qual·i·ty
iˈkwälitē/
noun
noun: equality
1.
the state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities

Of course there is also this definition, which perhaps you are using?

MATHEMATICS
a symbolic expression of the fact that two quantities are equal; an equation.
plural noun: equalities

Tearing down gender roles would, I think, do a lot of good for free expression regardless of one's sex. How many men are afraid of wearing pink because their friends would consider it "g*y"? Hell, even on dakka we have certain members calling other male players weird because they're playing a "girl army" like SoB. Geez.

It's actually not even a male thing, this was caused by consumerist culture thanks to Advertisers trying to push Products.

Seeing as pink used to actually be the MANLY color due to it being on a spectrum of red, while blue was touted for women for being a softer color..

Oddly enough, alot of issues we have come from advertisers for consumer products pushing things.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20324_5-basic-facts-life-were-made-up-by-marketing-campaigns.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_19780_5-gender-stereotypes-that-used-to-be-exact-opposite.html

While cracked isn't exactly the best source, they reference quite a bit within it.

The way I see it, Feminism is a lot like Christianity or any other movement: most of the followers are good people that just want the best for others, but a small and exceptionally vocal minority tend to drown out the majority, in no small way thanks to sensationalist media.

And for the record, it's totally possible for a guy to be a Feminist.

~Tim?

 Seaward wrote:
Certainly does.

What starts to get weird is the insistence on the suspension of disbelief for the waif-fu stuff, but insistence on 'realism' for the physique and appearance of said waif.

True, and a fair point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I think it would have, unless we're suddenly turning Alyx Vance into a Lesbian, or re-writing Half Life.

Changing one character's sexual preference so they remain attracted to the main character is hardly a drastic change.

For those still confused.... (I know it's an old post, but still).

Waif-fu is a portmanteau of 'waif' and 'kung-fu' where a slender, not physically imposing girl is often portrayed as a master of combat. Joss Whedon is a particularly fan of this trope with probably Summer Glau being the most famed example.



Generally, there's a clear distinction between these sort of characters and, for example, Vasquez in Aliens or Gina Torres or pretty much every character that Michelle Rodriguez plays. - In other words, those actresses that could quite convincingly beat the daylights out of your average gamer.

 Lynata wrote:

flamingkillamajig wrote:Funny thing is often times girls make fun of each other a lot too.

Absolutely - this is strongly connected to what gender roles a society is propagating, though. This can also become problematic when you have individual women try to "fit in" better with the males by adopting "traditional values" and attacking other women for moving outside what is considered social norm, essentially trying to earn greater acceptance from their male peers by "betraying" their own gender. An example of where this phenomenon occurs is military forces that are transitioning towards equality; in fact it is especially strong here because of the strong sense of belonging that permeates a unit.
A lot of men make fun of other men for the very same reasons, just in their case they are following machismo - exactly what the latter part of your post was referring to.

Tearing down gender roles would, I think, do a lot of good for free expression regardless of one's sex. How many men are afraid of wearing pink because their friends would consider it "g*y"? Hell, even on dakka we have certain members calling other male players weird because they're playing a "girl army" like SoB. Geez.

flamingkillamajig wrote:The funny things is even in some other times women don't always have it bad. They don't have to fight in wars where millions die often times (this is being changed but it's still not by a lot).

This is highly circumstantial - what about the women who wanted to fight, but were not allowed to? Do you know how many females fought in wars throughout the world disguised as men?

flamingkillamajig wrote:It'd be nice if feminism also talks about equal treatment for things that they get too good treatment in and trying to make those equal to men.

If you're looking around the internet, some feminists are pushing those agendas, too. Equality goes both ways, after all, and every true feminist should agree on this if put to the test.
It's probably not a "core demand" (as in: talked about by the majority) because these things are not as controversial in light of the existing inequality - though in many cases likely also because it is a human flaw to only perceive negative things if oneself is affected by them. This is the most probable reason for those posters in this thread argueing against feminism, too.

There are plenty of people used to the old ways. I find it odd so many women are interested in Christianity in comparison to men which often are much less religious or are atheist, agnostic or something else. Some people state women are more emotional and that's why but I don't even know about that. Maybe? I dunno Christianity just seems fairly harsh to women in comparison though that's not my biggest gripe about Christianity or Judaism *erm* noah's ark *erm* but that'll open up another can of worms for another thread. For the record i'm currently a Theist so I believe there's a god or gods but I don't know who or what that may be.

Sadly there's a lot of TV and other forms of media and entertainment that throws out some stereotypes that are not totally true or are less pronounced that society would have us believe.

I still think men are a bit odd when wanting to play little cutesy loli anime girls in games but part of that is a sense of pedophilia. Though it may seem weird I don't specifically hate those people either. I feel that it's messed up but people used to feel gay people were messed up. I get the feeling some of this behavior is hyped up once again by overly-dramatic tv and etc. However media exaggerating things in general is something they like to do. I'm ashamed to say some of my thoughts have been influenced by it as well. This is one important difference between real life and tv, books, etc. One is influenced by many people and situations and the experiences you go through go through less people that want to manipulate them extremely (well usually). However to get a better idea of things it's always nice to have the opinions of others. That said you must realize the important thing that any bit of knowledge you receive from others could've gone through a multitude of sources before getting to you. It's also important to recognize the patterns of thoughts, behaviors and decisions of others. This tends to be easier to recognize with friends and family or just anybody you're close to in general.

As for somebody playing sisters of battle I couldn't totally care either way. If somebody always plays as women when they're guys I would wonder if they wish to be a woman. However it's not really a big deal. Sisters of battle seem cooler to me than most flavors of space marine in 40k anyway. I'd bet it's a little weird for some men on Dakka to put sisters of battle as their main army titles as then it starts giving them titles like 'mistress' or 'canoness' and that would just be confusing for somebody sexual identity if they were a straight guy.

Honestly I don't know how many women have fought disguised as men but I think I heard in a history class that at least one did during the revolutionary war (I think she went instead of her father because he was ailing but I can't remember). As for how many did total i'm unsure as people that are really good at hiding things tend to keep them hidden. Chances are we don't even know the true numbers still esp. as time erases a lot of evidence.

That's true. I find people tend to see themselves getting wronged by others more than when they do something right. We are after all the hero in our own story and it's easiest to see ourselves as a 'good guy' that somebody cheers on. Sadly though a lot of us would probably make for a very boring story in a book. It's kind of true though. Sometimes we are quite huge d*cks to the people that cared for us or for other decent people. We just don't always recognize it. It'd be nice to make amends later though and if possible try to help those people if you can ever meet them normally though that's unlikely. Most people just flicker in and out of our lives and before you know it they're gone. As much as I normally prefer friendship over family I see that family helps me out when I need it and is usually always there whereas my longest friendship has maybe gone on for 7 years and mostly through phone conversations.

 Lynata wrote:
And do you have a source for this outlandish claim, or are you just spouting closet-misogynist web propaganda?

I suppose if you can point to a feminist organization that doesn't advocate for gender-based selective advantage or differential treatment, you might have me. Best of luck, but you won't find one.

An example of where this phenomenon occurs is military forces that are transitioning towards equality; in fact it is especially strong here because of the strong sense of belonging that permeates a unit.

Having known of more than a few female sailors who pulled trains in the f'oc'sle, I'd disagree that's the only reason.

flamingkillamajig wrote:As for somebody playing sisters of battle I couldn't totally care either way. If somebody always plays as women when they're guys I would wonder if they wish to be a woman.

Hmmh - it's certainly an interesting topic to discuss, regarding the subconsciousness of minds. I like to believe that a lot of people just prefer the variety; female characters may feel more "fresh" specifically because it's still considered unusual when compared with mainstream media or the portrayal of and expectations to women in real life.
And then there are also those guys who post something like "if I'm playing this characters for X hours per day, I'd prefer to watch a girl's butt rather than a guy's" - though I'm not entirely sure whether I should take that seriously or if this was just defensive machismo, meant to avoid talking about other probable causes that may be considered "less manly".

This is a question that tends to evoke a lot of different answers on gaming forums or imageboards; it's interesting to read how many different reasons people can list.

That being said, there's also a large number of female gamers who actually prefer male characters, so maybe picking a character of a different gender also helps to forcefully disconnect your own persona from the character you're playing, to better avoid the "playing yourself" stereotype?
Ideally, I think I would like to see the choice of gender in game characters be no different from the choice of species or class. Just go with what you have more fun - no strings attached.

flamingkillamajig wrote:That's true. I find people tend to see themselves getting wronged by others more than when they do something right. We are after all the hero in our own story and it's easiest to see ourselves as a 'good guy' that somebody cheers on. Sadly though a lot of us would probably make for a very boring story in a book. It's kind of true though. Sometimes we are quite huge d*cks to the people that cared for us or for other decent people. We just don't always recognize it. It'd be nice to make amends later though and if possible try to help those people if you can ever meet them normally though that's unlikely. Most people just flicker in and out of our lives and before you know it they're gone. As much as I normally prefer friendship over family I see that family helps me out when I need it and is usually always there whereas my longest friendship has maybe gone on for 7 years and mostly through phone conversations.

Heh, and just as I finished watching Black Rock Shooter.

I think you'd like that show.

Seaward wrote:I suppose if you can point to a feminist organization that doesn't advocate for gender-based selective advantage or differential treatment, you might have me. Best of luck, but you won't find one.

http://www.unwomen.org/

There?

 Compel wrote:
For those still confused.... (I know it's an old post, but still).

Waif-fu is a portmanteau of 'waif' and 'kung-fu' where a slender, not physically imposing girl is often portrayed as a master of combat.

That isn't accurate at all. It just refers to (typically) a female anime character one is smitten with. It has branched out to live actresses as well, with the masculine being 'husabando'.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Compel wrote:
For those still confused.... (I know it's an old post, but still).

Waif-fu is a portmanteau of 'waif' and 'kung-fu' where a slender, not physically imposing girl is often portrayed as a master of combat.

That isn't accurate at all. It just refers to (typically) a female anime character one is smitten with. It has branched out to live actresses as well, with the masculine being 'husabando'.

WAIF-FU

And

WAIFU

Are two separate words that sound similar, but mean completely different things.

 Cyporiean wrote:

WAIF-FU

And

WAIFU

Are two separate words that sound similar, but mean completely different things.

When I searched it I left the second 'f' out (wai-fu vs waif-fu), and it makes a huge difference in results.

Lynata wrote:There?

Dear me, no.

Cyporiean wrote:
WAIF-FU

And

WAIFU

Are two separate words that sound similar, but mean completely different things.

Indeed. The "waif" and "kung-fu" portmanteau definition is correct for waif-fu. I suspect Ouze knew that, though, and is just doing the usual.

 Seaward wrote:

Lynata wrote:There?

Dear me, no.

Care to explain?

I somehow have a hard time believing that a very slender woman ends up being really strong though. Possibly has a lot of dexterity but not strength. I'd imagine she'd be very muscular. I dunno about slender fighters. I suppose it could work but it's harder to imagine somebody slender going up against say Arnold or any sort of body-builder or physically imposing fighter.

@Cyporiean: You've gotta admit it's hella confusing though.

@lynata: In skyrim the first character I chose was an argonian (the lizard men) just for sheer ridiculousness and since a family member joked that it should be my character so I made it a fighter just to get the hand of things. My 2nd character was a somewhat more evil khajiit (cat-man) which I went the rogue route with which is pretty obvious and my 3rd (the mage) was a high elf. Normally i'd prefer a dark elf but in skyrim the dark elf didn't have bonuses that I liked in comparison to the high elf. Personally my favorite was the khajiit because I love rogue characters and the way they talk is awesome even though I normally don't like cats (i'm allergic to them so that's part of it).

So yeah I love not playing a human when I can with most things. I used to go for the generic good guys but now I prefer the under-handed, sneaky, indirect route. For some reason I find that to be one of the hardest esp. since I prefer stabbing baddies in the back instead of the shoot them with a bow while stealthed. Some games also seem to make it harder to play the rogue character. Mage characters seem to get ridiculously OP fast and warriors just have the stupid hit head against wall mentality with mostly tanking or melee. For rogues it's tricky because you need to be fast, slow and sneak a ton. It's not easy but rewarding when things work out well.

If you watch the anime 'monster' i'll give black rock shooter a shot. Then again I only watched half of 'monster'. I should probably watch all the other shows I've left half finished.

Anyway i'm going way off topic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

@Cyporiean: You've gotta admit it's hella confusing though.

No worst then There, Their, They're, and The Heir. English is fun, Wee-a-boo* English makes it more fun.

*Seriously, this word has an auto change?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

[That isn't a strawman. That is me responding to what people have said in this thread - that Feminists are seeking equality between the sexes. Not the same chances, or opportunities - equality.

I think most people think of this definition when using equality in discussions like this one:

e·qual·i·ty
iˈkwälitē/
noun
noun: equality
1.
the state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities

Of course there is also this definition, which perhaps you are using?

MATHEMATICS
a symbolic expression of the fact that two quantities are equal; an equation.
plural noun: equalities

Social equality not mathematical equality.

Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?