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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

If you check tumblr the insults towards those that try and criticize her fairly have gotten worse insults now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

It really depends on what you say and how you say it. If you say something questionable then people will question it. If you say something misogynist people will call you on it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

If you check tumblr the insults towards those that try and criticize her fairly have gotten worse insults now.

The Tumblr Feminist crowd is known for being a *little* easily angered. Still not as bad as the Tumblr "macho-man" misogynist crowd. Y'know, the blame-the-rape-victim crowd.

~Tim?

Every internet crowed is like that. People will rage about anything big, small or trivial.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

If you check tumblr the insults towards those that try and criticize her fairly have gotten worse insults now.

The Tumblr Feminist crowd is known for being a *little* easily angered. Still not as bad as the Tumblr "macho-man" misogynist crowd. Y'know, the blame-the-rape-victim crowd.

~Tim?

I dislike the 'tumblr feminist crowd.' If you ever want to just feel the glow of pure, unadulterated hate, just poke that angry hive of bees. It's not to say that there are not massive inequalities between the genders, but it's just my experience with the 'tumblr feminist crowd' likes to jump to the, "I will straight up cut a hoe!" phase without much provocation.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

If you check tumblr the insults towards those that try and criticize her fairly have gotten worse insults now.

The Tumblr Feminist crowd is known for being a *little* easily angered. Still not as bad as the Tumblr "macho-man" misogynist crowd. Y'know, the blame-the-rape-victim crowd.

~Tim?

I dislike the 'tumblr feminist crowd.' If you ever want to just feel the glow of pure, unadulterated hate, just poke that angry hive of bees. It's not to say that there are not massive inequalities between the genders, but it's just my experience with the 'tumblr feminist crowd' likes to jump to the, "I will straight up cut a hoe!" phase without much provocation.

I don't think they would use quite that style of language. Also what tumblers do you read? None of the ones I read are like that.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

If you check tumblr the insults towards those that try and criticize her fairly have gotten worse insults now.

The Tumblr Feminist crowd is known for being a *little* easily angered. Still not as bad as the Tumblr "macho-man" misogynist crowd. Y'know, the blame-the-rape-victim crowd.

~Tim?

I like how you try and point out that men are worse somehow, Very demeaning and trying to push away the issue. I mean men aren't exactly on there calling out for Sterilization of all feminists.

Nomotog, I think you are missing an important component of feminism; namely, it is not merely the pursuit of equality for women but also the acknowledgment that society currently disfavors women relative to men or at least prefers men. That second part is where most of the debate lies.

Manchu wrote:
Nomotog, I think you are missing an important component of feminism; namely, it is not merely the pursuit of equality for women but also the acknowledgment that society currently disfavors women relative to men or at least prefers men. That second part is where most of the debate lies.

Even though the fact of the matter is they won't talk about things that disfavors males in society.

(1) What do you mean by "even though"?

(2) Who are "they"? There is nothing logically impossible about feminism also criticizing anti-male aspects of society.

nomotog wrote:
I don't think they would use quite that style of language. Also what tumblers do you read? None of the ones I read are like that.

I was paraphrasing, and I try to avoid tumblr because it's never been a really welcoming place unless you want killer mac and cheese recipes (not just on the MRM and feminist side of things, but there's just a lot of hate in general on tumblr). Though I do like the concept of tumblr, but that's off topic for this discussion.

Manchu wrote:
(1) What do you mean by "even though"?

(2) Who are "they"? There is nothing logically impossible about feminism also criticizing anti-male aspects of society.

I suppose the groups that support feminism is "they"

I rarely heard anything of actual activism for the courts favoring females.


Actually do you have any links for this one? I know I'm probably wrong on this one, but I'd like to know there's some activism over the fact females who Murder and Rape get lesser sentences then men, if they are even counted as raping others.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Actually do you have any links for this one?

That's a strange way to shift the conversation. Why would I have such links?

Manchu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Actually do you have any links for this one?

That's a strange way to shift the conversation. Why would I have such links?

I have gotten way to used to Tumblr, let's just say that much. It's like if someone wants to argue a point they end up throwing seventeen different links at you in an effort to source every little thing you say is wrong because so and so said this..

All I'm saying is, a key component of feminism is acknowledgment that society generally favors men/disfavors women. I guess I am further saying that how feminists analyse and respond to this outlook is mainly what differentiates them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I like how you try and point out that men are worse somehow, Very demeaning and trying to push away the issue. I mean men aren't exactly on there calling out for Sterilization of all feminists.

Thumbs up really.

Society isn't exactly brilliant for men. The moment I saw that show called "The Talk" and they were making jokes and laughing about a guy who had his private parts cut off and thrown in a garbage disposal unit is the day I realised that a mans pain is really funny to some people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Nomotog, I think you are missing an important component of feminism; namely, it is not merely the pursuit of equality for women but also the acknowledgment that society currently disfavors women relative to men or at least prefers men. That second part is where most of the debate lies.

Even though the fact of the matter is they won't talk about things that disfavors males in society.

Yep and when men arrange their own events to talk about these things they then disrupt them by protesting outside the building.

Manchu wrote:
All I'm saying is, a key component of feminism is acknowledgment that society generally favors men/disfavors women. I guess I am further saying that how feminists analyse and respond to this outlook is mainly what differentiates them.

The problem is I have to disagree with that, from what I've seen along with actual backed statistics is that there is no generalized favor or disfavor, there is in certain area's but it's not indicative of society as a whole.

My main issue is that some groups feminists take it so far into victimhood, that they almost seem cultlike with how females Need feminism and feminists to be strong themselves, because they are weak (oh the irony there) without them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
from what I've seen along with actual backed statistics is that there is no generalized favor or disfavor

"Actual backed statistics" as to what? Comparison of pay or position? Those statistics, so far as I am aware, tend to show that men occupy most positions of authority in society. If there are certain aspects of our society, such as family or criminal law, that disfavor men compared to women, let's keep in mind that it was men who created those aspects and that men largely continue to support them. Feminism is not an argument that men should continue to oppress other men.

Manchu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
from what I've seen along with actual backed statistics is that there is no generalized favor or disfavor

"Actual backed statistics" as to what? Comparison of pay or position? Those statistics, so far as I am aware, tend to show that men occupy most positions of authority in society. If there are certain aspects of our society, such as family or criminal law, that disfavor men compared to women, let's keep in mind that it was men who created those aspects and largely men who continue to support them. Feminism is not an argument that men should continue to oppress other men.

I never said it was, however I don't see how they will fix the positions of authority in society. This would mean that women would naturally have to work and do the same in order to get into office.

Which would mean would there still be complaints if men are still voted in even by the female population? As the alternative is to make a law stating X% has to be female, which is a horrible position to take.


Well yes for Pay. Such as statistics like this showing why female doctors are earning less then male doctors within the UK. There's quite a few more that's quite educational on the topic, but it's generally shown that Men work longer hours, work more deadly conditions, (for a 90% death rate in the workforce, though most of those jobs women aren't exactly going into I believe so it might skew that further as well), and generally take less time off, which is why it's skewing the results.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/dec/28/johncarvel1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9549262/Part-time-women-doctors-are-a-risk-to-NHS.html

Manchu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
from what I've seen along with actual backed statistics is that there is no generalized favor or disfavor

"Actual backed statistics" as to what? Comparison of pay or position? Those statistics, so far as I am aware, tend to show that men occupy most positions of authority in society.

Interesting argument considering that women make up the majority of the voters. Not only do they make up 51% of the population but they are also more likely to register to vote. In retrospect the male leaders of the countries are only voted in because women vote them in to begin with.

I understand that women don't hold the same types of positions in general to men in our society but from what I've learned nothing about the Feminist movement in what it wants to advocate actually does anything to change this. I'm not sure how alimony laws, extra leave for women (maternity but no paternity), etc, etc is supposed to help women get more job positions rather than less.

If there are certain aspects of our society, such as family or criminal law, that disfavor men compared to women, let's keep in mind that it was men who created those aspects and that men largely continue to support them. Feminism is not an argument that men should continue to oppress other men.

And the reason why those male leaders do such a thing in the first place is to cater to the female vote. Not to mention they are advocated by political pressure groups for these sorts of policies.

There is a reason why New Labour in my country were popular by women. All you have to do is look at their manifesto.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
however I don't see how they will fix the positions of authority in society

Not sure how this responds to anything I posted. Go read more feminist literature, I guess?

Also, the issue is not that there are no reasons why men are more likely to exercise authority than women. My point is to remind you that non-feminist men created and largely maintain the structures you say favor women.

 DarthOvious wrote:
And the reason why those male leaders do such a thing in the first place is to cater to the female vote.

Not really; many of the structures favoring women are rooted in traditions predating enfranchisement of women as for example regarding family and criminal law.

Manchu wrote:
If there are certain aspects of our society, such as family or criminal law, that disfavor men compared to women, let's keep in mind that it was men who created those aspects and that men largely continue to support them.

As do women.

Feminism is not an argument that men should continue to oppress other men.

Very true. It is, however, an argument that women should be treated equally, except when it's advantageous for them not to be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

No more then still being at the point where if you support her you are feminazi man hater trying to propagate an extremist agenda.

Manchu wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
And the reason why those male leaders do such a thing in the first place is to cater to the female vote.

Not really; many of the structures favoring women are rooted in traditions predating enfranchisement of women as for example regarding family and criminal law.

I disagree with you. Not only is socialism pretty much an idea that was raised in recent history it is still the selling line for a lot of political parties today. I can agree that a lot of things existed beforehand which disfavoured men but a lot of recent things are arising disfavouring men as well.

For example:

It was pretty common for men to receive full custody of children. Although I don't believe that this was right, because I don't think one parent should be favoured over another what we have now is the exact opposite where women are considered to be the more favoured choice for custody.

http://www.faqs.org/childhood/Co-Fa/Divorce-and-Custody.html

During the colonial period and the early Republic, children were viewed as economic assets whose labor was valuable to their parents and other adults. In this early era, the father as the head of the household had the complete right to the custody and control of his children both during the marriage and in the rare event of divorce. Over the course of the nineteenth century, the child's value as a laborer decreased and more emphasis was place on child nurture and education. The legal concept of the best interestof the child was initiated. Under this rule, mothers gained favor as the parent better able to handle the emotional and nurturing needs of children of tender years and mothers were likely to prevail over fathers in the custody battles following the increasingly common event of divorce.

This extract also points to fathers gaining ground again, but a lot still needs to be done to improve the situation. Of course it doesn't help when certain judges think its better to give custody of children to abusive mothers rather than to whoever the better parent is.

http://www.shrink4men.com/2013/01/17/troubling-update-on-the-colonel-kirk-case/

Uh, what does socialism have to do with any of this? Especially considering it's a class based ideology rather than a gender one.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

If you check tumblr the insults towards those that try and criticize her fairly have gotten worse insults now.

The Tumblr Feminist crowd is known for being a *little* easily angered. Still not as bad as the Tumblr "macho-man" misogynist crowd. Y'know, the blame-the-rape-victim crowd.

~Tim?

I like how you try and point out that men are worse somehow, Very demeaning and trying to push away the issue. I mean men aren't exactly on there calling out for Sterilization of all feminists.

I'm a guy, and as a guy, it's infinitely painful reading the rantings of raging male misogynists, moreso than it is reading the same caliber of material from the deranged fringe of Feminists. Dunno why, but that's just how it is for me.

Also, I'll just chime in with the others and ask you to point to stats that back up your rather grandiose claim that society oppresses men.

~Tim?

I swear a cartoon or game character we should try to make as androgynous as possible to be inclusive.

Just watch a child focused cartoon, see a few.
With my parental non-clinical opinion I could not witness more media that tries to define male and female roles, models and behavior.
Any product that tries to shoe-horn a gender bias, just do not buy it or give it a means for funding.

It all boils down to "not caring" or not making a point of it, why feel a need to "put a bow on it" in the first place?

Do not call your boy "slugger" do not be afraid to wrestle with your daughter, get your boys pets, a chance to nurture.

Games reflect what we have trained into our kids to be an interest.
So action, social interaction, relationships, puzzles and "spatial" relationships are not the specific skillset of a gender: it is common across both it just needs to be given a chance.

These videos are of interest but makes no attempt at pointing to root cause.
Here is an area specific to the industry: http://www.techwell.com/2012/10/culture-shock-battle-sexes-software-development
We are still at a stage where there is not enough female representation that an all male development staff has no clue on how to write for a female audience.
All it takes is hiring one, the rest will follow.

It is far easier to make a video to criticize the industry rather than just say to your viewers have respect for each other and question what behavior you are trying to promote.

 Ahtman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we still at the point where anyone who dares criticise Sarkeesian gets yelled at for being a misogynist puppet of the Hetero-Patriachy, or have we moved beyond that?

No more then still being at the point where if you support her you are feminazi man hater trying to propagate an extremist agenda.

Interesting fact about Sarkeesian. She raised all that money for her video series through donations. She didn't release a video for a good while and then when her new video does come out it is not of any better standard than any of her previous videos. It is then documented that the visual material used is not of her own but that of other player videos on youtube (lets play).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvwiYmVhW94

and here is the original blog post.

http://victorsopinion.blogspot.be/2013/07/anitas-sources.html

So in essence, here are some questions we need to ask.

1) Did she actually play any of the games?

2) What exactly did she do with the money she raised?

oh and

3) Why was she unaware Zelda fights back against Ganondorf in Twilight Princess if she did actually play the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheesecat wrote:
Uh, what does socialism have to do with any of this? Especially considering it's a class based ideology rather than a gender one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_feminism

Socialist feminism is a branch of feminism that focuses upon both the public and private spheres of a woman's life and argues that liberation can only be achieved by working to end both the economic and cultural sources of women's oppression.[1] Socialist feminism is a two-pronged theory that broadens Marxist feminism's argument for the role of capitalism in the oppression of women and radical feminism's theory of the role of gender and the patriarchy. Socialist feminists reject radical feminism’s main claim that patriarchy is the only or primary source of oppression of women.[2] Rather, socialist feminists assert that women are unable to be free due to their financial dependence on males in society. Women are subjects to the male rulers in capitalism due to an uneven balance in wealth. They see economic dependence as the driving force of women’s subjugation to men. Further, socialist feminists see women’s liberation as a necessary part of larger quest for social, economic and political justice.

I hope this answers your question.

OK, that makes more sense I was thinking of socialism from the perspective of Karl Marx.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:


I'm a guy, and as a guy, it's infinitely painful reading the rantings of raging male misogynists, moreso than it is reading the same caliber of material from the deranged fringe of Feminists. Dunno why, but that's just how it is for me.

Also, I'll just chime in with the others and ask you to point to stats that back up your rather grandiose claim that society oppresses men.

~Tim?

I guess its one of those things you'll never see until it happens to you. I guess the best place to ask if what do mens rights activists consider to be proof of their claims. Mens rights on reddit do list some sources on this page.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRightsMeta/comments/tnwn8/faq_suggestion_antimale_legislation_roundup/

Not saying its proof that's going to change your mind but it is what is being touted.