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2014/01/14 16:02:58
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
I almost wish I had chosen to Nids to be my first army instead of Eldar... almost. So with the addition of the Crone do Nids have a proper equivalent to the Tzeentch Flying Circus now?
1000
2014/01/14 16:08:52
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Gants may not be tall enough to give them 25% cover, especially if the opponent is on higher ground or have taller models. Moreover, they are kind of slow. Roll a 1" on your run and they become a bottleneck for your carnifexes.
Either run gargoyles instead, or don't run a screening unit.
Interveneing unit rule doesn't follow the 25% cover mechanic. Like area terrain it is an exception. So as long as the firing unit is shooting through (even if it is shooting through gaps) and not over a unit, the target gets a 5+ cover save. Being up on multi-level ruins or having a very tall model (like Flyers or a wraithknight) can bypass this by shooting over the unit.
Old One Eye
Haruspex w/ Adrenal x2
Venomthrope
Tervigon
Spinegants
6 dakkafexes.
1850. Yes, needs more Psykers but... man that would be fun.
It's fun for nine seconds. Then your opponent kills your Tervigon, and you no longer have any control over your army.
Except Termagants will stay safe even without synapse, Old One Eye can boost LD and Haruspexes don't really care about IB when they can never cannablize themselves.
I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
2014/01/14 16:51:04
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
I'll just infiltrate the Stealers, pin whatever I can with The Horror and the Biovores and march everything else across the board at my opponent. Swarmy will just pass wounds off to his Guard and the Fexes will be screened by the Gargoyles, backed up by a Venomthrope for 3+ cover saves. The lonely Zoan will hang back behind cover with the Biovores as their Synapse conduit simply because it's necessary.
You can't tell me that won't be a fun list to play.
As far as my 'competitive' list will go, it'll be something like:
Gants used to tarpit or claim objectives depending on scenario and enemy. Tervigon sits backfield with a Venomthrope and spits out more Gants to claim objectives - also acts as Synapse conduit for Biovores. Zoan also serves as a Synapse conduit for Biovores and back-to-midfield. Dakkafexes again are screened by Gargoyles and given Shrouded by a Venomthrope. Biovores pepper the enemy from behind LoS blocking cover. Crones and Dakka Flyrants bring the airborne pain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/14 17:08:39
2014/01/14 16:56:53
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
si_ wrote: The Skyshield idea sounds like it could work. Personally I would wait for the inevitable FAQ nerd before investing in fortifications.
I don't normally post lists up but I have been trying to come up one which I can build my new swarm to and I have come up with this:
Spoiler:
HQ
Flyrant - TL Devourers
Flyrant - TL Devourers
ELITE
Zoanthropes (3)
Hive Guard (2)
Hive Guard (2)
TROOPS
Warriors (3) - BS / 2x Deathspitters
Termagants (30)
Tervigon
FAST
Hive Crone
HEAVY
Exocrine
Exocrine
Thats 1750pts (unless my math is out as Ive posted from memory). This list will be ok in my meta unless I come across against the Eldar. I was originally going to have another Crone but I dropped it for extra synapse.
What are thoughts on this build? I don't see many Hive Guards in lists these days.
What I'm liking are hive guards + the Bastion.
I don't recommend 3 zoans as perfomance decreases the more zoans you have in a unit (though on the flip side, survivability increases). Instead, this is what I would recommend:
1x Zoan
1x Zoan
3x Hive Guards
Bastion
Put the Bastion 8" outside your deployment zone. Then on Turn 1, move the hive guards to within 2" of it and embark. Then move and hide one of the zoans (or tervigon) behind the bastion.
What unit's in the codex would I need to include for maximum long range fire power (24 + inches) and would including these units allow me to at LEAST match it with a slight under tear optimized Tau army.
Also.. coupled with maxed out Venemthropes and set up in ruins would the above list be able to shrug off most hits with relative impunity?
I understand cover denying removes the real power of the above but I think practically speaking the below mitigates that;
1. The marker light's removing my cover are not helping the fire warrior's ballistic skills.
2. Mawloc's and/or Lictors and/or Deathleaper and/or long range fire power will HAVE to target the source of the marker lights as soon as possible (possibly killing a unit providing the course first turn?)
Considering my meta is very far from tripple rip tide + all missiles all the time I think something like the above would be very powerful and hard to kill.
My main worry is weather I will have enough of the long range stuff..
Forget it. Don't even bother. You will never be able to match Tau in a ranged firefight. Maybe at short range with TL-brainleech devourers, but the best we've got at longer ranges are the 200+ tyrannofex and the 135+ harpies, both of which aren't very reliable shooters anyways.
The way to play against the Tau is with speed. You need to mobilize your entire army against them, put up a lot of targets to make target priority hard and use either lots of fast units or a lot of resilient ones. Tau, mechdar, space wolves and venom-spam DE may be 4 of the toughest armies for tyranids to go up against due to the sheer number of ranged firepower they can put up. Don't play their game, which is ranged shooting. Rather, play your own game and send tons and tons of fast or monstrous creatures to put a huge amount of pressure on them.
Carnifex with dual stranglethorn canon. Harpies have a twin linked stranglethorn cannon, and are pretty cheap.
I really like the idea of Stranglethorn Carnifexes... even more than dakkafexes.
I also read about the old idea of a 'distraction carnifex'. Maybe a distraction tyrannofex could work, with the new and improved regeneration.
Carnifexes may only take 1 stranglethorn canon.
The harpy is actually a good option, not so much for its guns as it is for its speed and ability to apply pressure to the enemy along with your flyrants.
am i the only one who sees Void shields as a great use now for nids? and even the Promethean pipes to make pyrovors torrent? once taudar get smart and start using void shields, any range shooting is gonna be in trouble
Not a whole lot of people really play Stronghold here yet, which is probably why there isn't much input.
Personally, I am of the opinion that you should ask if your opponent wants to play against an army with Escalation or Stronghold units. Most people won't be too happy when they play against you and all of a sudden, you take out your Revenant or Warhound titan. Likewise, many people also won't like it when they bring a normal list and all of a sudden, you bring out a unit with 6 Void Shields. Heck, if I went to play against a Tau player in a "normal" game and all of a sudden, he whips out a Void Shield Network with 6 void shields, I'd probably go "no thank you, I'll pass." Haha....just kidding. I'd just go and crush his army.
DexKivuli wrote: Carnifex with dual stranglethorn canon. Harpies have a twin linked stranglethorn cannon, and are pretty cheap.
I really like the idea of Stranglethorn Carnifexes... even more than dakkafexes.
I also read about the old idea of a 'distraction carnifex'. Maybe a distraction tyrannofex could work, with the new and improved regeneration.
Iirc aren't you only allowed one Stranglethorn Cannon though? Can't do the gunboat Fex. They killed that after 4th.
Opinions of new list so far - I'm liking it. Seeing odds and ends of one way or another.
Shall get a proper free for all outing on the 25th with an Apocalypse game at the FLGS - I'm being asked to provide about 3-4k worth of the 'nids which conveniently works out to what is painted at the moment.
Naked hormagants really aren't that great. As a wound soaker for your primes, I'd recommend 30 termagants instead. I'd also recommend breaking down 1 unit of hormagants into 2 or 3 units of 10 termagants. Finally, consider the bastion for your army and perhaps 1 or 2 zoans to spread the coverage of synapse.
Important to note there that Hormagaunts lose Bounding leap if joined by a Prime.
Right, all the more reason not to run Primes with hormagants.
jy2 wrote: Naked hormagants really aren't that great.
Why is that? The way I see it, they're the same as termagants but a lot quicker (+3" run and rerollable run) which means that as a screening unit, they're less likely to hold stuff up with bad run moves.
That's true, but without either AG or Toxin Sacs, they aren't really as much of a threat to many units. Gargoyles are faster and can threaten any non-tank unit thanks to their blinding poison, and the fact that they are non-scoring here actually acts as a benefit. Gargoyles are totally sacrificial and thus, perfect as cannon fodder. With their increased range, a shooting attack and blinding venom, they are also more dangerous.
Enceladus wrote: Interesting. Shrouded behind an ADL would be 3+ cover, right?
It would be 2+ cover.
Journeyman351 wrote: Hey guys, I REALLY want to play a close combat Tyranid army, as I think that's what they are meant to do. I have really no interest in playing the "shooty nids" version of the army (unless I'm getting completely tabled all the time, and have no other choice). With this said, I was thinking about running a CC Hive Tyrant death star of sorts. I know it isn't the greatest list, and cannot handle some armies, but here is my list. Please provide comments and help, as they would be much appreciated!
Now, I already know that if I increase the points cap, I'll probably be adding more Carnifexes, and possibly a Hive Crone to deal with fliers since Heldrakes are my bane here. I separated the Venomthropes to obviously keep them at different places within the army. I kitted out my Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard to be a monster in CC. I can possibly see taking off the LW & BS from the Hive Guard themselves, but as of right now, it seems pretty decent on paper (albeit costing me 60 points). I'm also thinking of possibly replacing the Hormagants with Termagants, but we'll see. I like the idea of a block of 20 CC units to tarpit something that always wound on 4+. I also run Regen on the Tervigon because I REALLY do not want her to die, considering my termagants would suffer greatly if she does. I'll also lose a synapse creature as well.
Again, please post any advice you may have for this list. I'm trying to keep the points cost at 1,350, but I might also make a 1,500 point variation of this list as well.
2 things about playing assault bugs:
1) You need speed or the ability to take a lot of shots. Having to take 2-3 rounds of fire from an army such as Tau or Eldar will decimate your army. Assault nids are not viable without either lots of speed or ultra-tough units. That means FNP on your assault units or super-fast units such as flying MC's, burrowing trygons/mawlocs and gargoyles/raveners/shrikes.
2) You've got way too much upgrade. A 200-pt carnifex dies just the same as a 120-pt one. Dump most of the upgrades. The only ones that you should consider keeping are adrenal glands for your big monsters. Everything else just subtracts from your army. For nids, in most cases, I'd go with quantity over quality.
Formosa wrote: I have tried out the haruspex and quite like it , sure it's only got 4 attacks on the charge but the additional attacks generated are quite cool, I basically treat it as 5/6 attacks basically when all is said and done, adrenal glands are a must though
That's good to hear. On paper, it really doesn't look very impressive. I'm glad you've had some success it, especially since the model is so awesome!
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'm seriously considering buying a basic ADL and running the thing down the midline of the board. Then the venomthropes will mean any shooting into my table half gets a 2+ cover save. With the monstrous creatures all having Move Through Cover, it won't slow them down appreciably to cross it, and granting opponents cover saves won't matter much since so many of them will be taking 3+ or 4+ armor saves against massed devourer, shooting anyway.
That is a viable strategy.
Now the challenge would be in trying to keep your venomthropes alive as it moves into position to protect the rest of your army.
Journeyman351 wrote: Hey guys, I REALLY want to play a close combat Tyranid army, as I think that's what they are meant to do. I have really no interest in playing the "shooty nids" version of the army (unless I'm getting completely tabled all the time, and have no other choice). With this said, I was thinking about running a CC Hive Tyrant death star of sorts. I know it isn't the greatest list, and cannot handle some armies, but here is my list. Please provide comments and help, as they would be much appreciated!
IMO, walking tyrants are not worth it. If you want a walking tyrant, I would go with the Swarmlord instead, simply because he does so much more for your army. Additionally, I'm not a fan of lashwhips on tyrant guard, because most of them are going to get killed before they make it across the board anyway. If you drop the whips and the tyrant, you would be able to put in the Swarmlord (Also, adrenal glands on your guard are useless if you put them with Swarmy, so you should drop those too if you decide to take my advice). Also, Carnifexes are 120 pts. base, not 160, and I do not believe that Crushing Claws are a good investment for them, especially with adrenal glands. You're already S10 on the charge and have the option to smash. Do you really need armorbane as well?
Well, the numbers next to the unit themselves is their TOTAL cost, with upgrades and all. The Carnifex with all of the bells and whistles costs 160. I guess I may not need the armourbane to kill tanks and vehicles, but I thought it would be nice. So you suggest to leave him with two pairs of Scything Talons then?
On the topic of the Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard, they'll be with a venomthrope nine times out of ten. It is totally possible that they will die before even entering combat, but that's why they have adrenal glands. I don't know how "magical christmasland" this may be, but my goal is to keep the death star with a venomthrope, or near one for the shroud, and charge into CC before getting shot down and before losing the shroud matters. You're probably right, though. And I initially wanted to build The Swarmlord, but I found the points cost to be too much for what I'm getting. I still think he's a great unit in terms of CC Hive Tyrants, but I'm not so sure. What would my benefit be from running a flying Hive Tyrant with the Tyrant Guard? What could some example kits be?
2014/01/14 17:26:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Naked hormagants really aren't that great. As a wound soaker for your primes, I'd recommend 30 termagants instead. I'd also recommend breaking down 1 unit of hormagants into 2 or 3 units of 10 termagants. Finally, consider the bastion for your army and perhaps 1 or 2 zoans to spread the coverage of synapse.
Important to note there that Hormagaunts lose Bounding leap if joined by a Prime.
Right, all the more reason not to run Primes with hormagants.
jy2 wrote: Tyranids really have it tough in Apoc. You need 1) flyers and 2) Void Shields in games of Apoc. Otherwise, D weapons will just tear up a bug army.
Well, I'm only one part of the 18k+ Swarm being brought out - my opponent will be bringing some flyers and other big critters so I'm just one part of the swarm. Yeah, Apoc is rough but this is a good field test of what we can and can't do. Hopefully the other 20 odd Carnifexes will be a better distraction than my 3. Or the Hierodules...
Now only a CSM player.
2014/01/14 17:40:08
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
am i the only one who sees Void shields as a great use now for nids? and even the Promethean pipes to make pyrovors torrent? once taudar get smart and start using void shields, any range shooting is gonna be in trouble
Not a whole lot of people really play Stronghold here yet, which is probably why there isn't much input.
Personally, I am of the opinion that you should ask if your opponent wants to play against an army with Escalation or Stronghold units. Most people won't be too happy when they play against you and all of a sudden, you take out your Revenant or Warhound titan. Likewise, many people also won't like it when they bring a normal list and all of a sudden, you bring out a unit with 6 Void Shields. Heck, if I went to play against a Tau player in a "normal" game and all of a sudden, he whips out a Void Shield Network with 6 void shields, I'd probably go "no thank you, I'll pass." Haha....just kidding. I'd just go and crush his army.
I know my store is not allowing any lord of war in your FOC so escalation is out, but stronghold is different, strong hold in my opinion should always be allowed/used because it further explains the use of buildings plus who would not want to give their ADL reroll all 1s to hit.... (thats any unit within 2 inchs gets) Void Shield network is awesome, armour 12 bubbles with 3hp when maxed out. Stronghold book is by far one of the best written additions to 40k. Basically it makes your castlers stronger, and a few crafty players meaner. Like I would put the void shields to cover my half of the table either forcing my enemy to close ground to get in the shields, or bring them down which will pull lots of shooting. Or what i want to do is use it to cover my advancing trannofexs and what not.
Old One Eye
Haruspex w/ Adrenal x2
Venomthrope
Tervigon
Spinegants
6 dakkafexes.
1850. Yes, needs more Psykers but... man that would be fun.
It's fun for nine seconds. Then your opponent kills your Tervigon, and you no longer have any control over your army.
Testing on LD 8 for the army isn't that bad. It's sort of Synapse.
I wouldn't use it in a tournament but in some of my casual games I'll have lots of fun. Maybe drop 3 Fexes for regen on everything and... I dunno.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/01/14 18:09:23
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
I might give it a run this Sunday.
How did you get on with him in the last book? I think with him getting fleet and improved Regen, it could be a very worth while tactic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/14 18:21:09
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
I might give it a run this Sunday.
If you run 1 Tyranno...run 2.
That was my old philosophy.
Swarmy, 3 Guard and 2 Tyrannos backed by Venoms was how I used to crush MSUBA back in the day...but onslaughting rupture cannons was also a guarantee then.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
I might give it a run this Sunday.
If you run 1 Tyranno...run 2.
That was my old philosophy.
Swarmy, 3 Guard and 2 Tyrannos backed by Venoms was how I used to crush MSUBA back in the day...but onslaughting rupture cannons was also a guarantee then.
I was thinking of 1 backed up by Carnifexes and Venoms.
D6Damager wrote: I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
I've looked into this. It's good but... It costs 130points, will probably never see combat and you're banking on that unit failing it's Ld check in the first place. It's ok, but not worth 130 points. It could work if you knew your opponent was sort of coming to you as well, then the unit might actually see combat as well.
Yes, we've all had times (especially in 5th) when a Broodlord dominated a squad all by himself or our opponent fired so many guns at the unit that the rest of your army was able to get in there unimpeded.
He still costs too much to be viable. He's more than 2 Warriors.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/01/14 19:58:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids
I still think a variation to this is the best way to run stealers. Doesn't rely on venomthropes, so you can fish for catalyst. Not many armies can deal with 80 stealers just outside their deployment with 2+ cover. Even serpent shields would struggle to dent it in time. For 1850 I'd reduce the zoies to 1 each and add another flyrant.
N.I.B. wrote: I had a fun game against Space Wolves Longfang-spam with these big boys;
Tyranid Prime – Venom Cannon
Tervigon
3 Venomthropes
1 Zoanthrope
1 Zoanthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Dakkafex
3 Dakkafex
3 Dakkafex
1995pts
Very close game which Nids pulled out in the end. 3++ save Dakkafexes, 108 TL S6 shots...
Yeah, that would be a fun list to play. Not very balanced, but imagine the look on your opponent's face.
S.K.Ren wrote: I almost wish I had chosen to Nids to be my first army instead of Eldar... almost. So with the addition of the Crone do Nids have a proper equivalent to the Tzeentch Flying Circus now?
It's a different type of flyer list than daemons. Daemon flyers are more rugged/resilient thanks to Invuln's and Fateweaver letting them re-roll 1 ground test. Tyranid flyers are cheaper and allows them to have better supporting ground units (or more MC's). To me, it's like comparing apples to oranges almost. They play much, much differently.
Gants may not be tall enough to give them 25% cover, especially if the opponent is on higher ground or have taller models. Moreover, they are kind of slow. Roll a 1" on your run and they become a bottleneck for your carnifexes.
Either run gargoyles instead, or don't run a screening unit.
Interveneing unit rule doesn't follow the 25% cover mechanic. Like area terrain it is an exception. So as long as the firing unit is shooting through (even if it is shooting through gaps) and not over a unit, the target gets a 5+ cover save. Being up on multi-level ruins or having a very tall model (like Flyers or a wraithknight) can bypass this by shooting over the unit.
Don't have my book right now so can't look it up, but my understanding is that the original unit has to be able to give the unit behind cover. So even with the models removed, if the original unit did not give the MC cover, then shooting through a unit still will not give the MC cover. However, if the original unit did give it cover, then the MC will get cover when you shoot at it through intervening models, even if the MC is in full sight with no actual models obscuring it.
But like I said, I don't have my book with me so can't verify right now.
Old One Eye
Haruspex w/ Adrenal x2
Venomthrope
Tervigon
Spinegants
6 dakkafexes.
1850. Yes, needs more Psykers but... man that would be fun.
Do it!
That's a crap-ton of MC's!
D6Damager wrote: I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
That's actually an interesting build that I may have to try out one of these days. It's not a very balanced build and you will be in trouble if you don't get first turn against an army like Tau or mechdar, but it can definitely be a fun build to play if things go your way.
ductvader wrote: There...a synapseless list that doesn't care so much that it's synapseless.
Just showing that there are ways of segmenting out parts of your army so that finding Synapse becomes less of an issue.
Nicely done. I myself haven't really considered a synapseless army, but maybe, just maybe, a good TAC tyranid list will take this into account. If you can't get enough synapse into your list, then consider building one that doesn't rely on synapse too much.
Gants may not be tall enough to give them 25% cover, especially if the opponent is on higher ground or have taller models. Moreover, they are kind of slow. Roll a 1" on your run and they become a bottleneck for your carnifexes.
Either run gargoyles instead, or don't run a screening unit.
Interveneing unit rule doesn't follow the 25% cover mechanic. Like area terrain it is an exception. So as long as the firing unit is shooting through (even if it is shooting through gaps) and not over a unit, the target gets a 5+ cover save. Being up on multi-level ruins or having a very tall model (like Flyers or a wraithknight) can bypass this by shooting over the unit.
Don't have my book right now so can't look it up, but my understanding is that the original unit has to be able to give the unit behind cover. So even with the models removed, if the original unit did not give the MC cover, then shooting through a unit still will not give the MC cover. However, if the original unit did give it cover, then the MC will get cover when you shoot at it through intervening models, even if the MC is in full sight with no actual models obscuring it.
But like I said, I don't have my book with me so can't verify right now.
BRB wrote:if a unit is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit ... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unite, that target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather then through it.
Partially hidden does not equate to 25%, also note the part about being completely visible . MC follow all the rules for Infantry when it comes to cover saves...So, unless you are able to draw your line completely over the guants because you are up in some tall ruins or you have a tall model...the guants can still give a MC cover even if they don't obscure them (25%) .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/14 20:26:23
D6Damager wrote: I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
yeah... stealers are fleet as well if I am not mistaken
so basically guaranteed 2nd turn charge if at 18" away, and possible 1st turn charge if you go 2nd and they move up...
stealers are what, 12 14 pts now? put enough of em up there, and you really dont need that many to get into combat to wreck the opponents army...
if my kommandos do well for themselves simply by inlfiltrating, at 15 pts a pop, then stealers can definetly wreck some face too.
1000 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
, sure it's only got 4 attacks on the charge but the additional attacks generated are quite cool, I basically treat it as 5/6 attacks basically when all is said and done, adrenal glands are a must though
10,000+ 
. 
