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 Wyzilla wrote:


That's if they have spotters. The only time a railgun gets longer range than a laser is if you use it as indirect artillery, only that takes a lot of distance for a railgun to drop off, and like I said, you need a spotter.

Also, with how freakishly powerful the lascannon is as a laser (holy gak that thing's probably got the energy output of a very large missile), certainly far greater than modern lasers), by the range it stops doing significant damage, it's going to be so far off that you're either trying to pop high altitude aircraft or there's a building in the way. Even beyond its effective range, it could still do things like shoot missiles and mortars out of the sky.

To reinforce the point I made earlier about the US Army comparing favorably to the IoM, let's talk about how the IoM doesn't have the targeting know-how to do that.

The US Army has a vehicle called the M-6. It's an M-2 Bradley chassis that they strapped some Stinger missiles and a radar onto.

By the Space Marine Codex, the Space Marines and AdMech couldn't figure out how to do the same with a Rhino chassis. They had to find an STC, because that was too difficult for them. They couldn't figure it out... one million genetically-modified super-soldiers and (presumably) billions of the "brightest" technological minds in the Imperium.

Hitting a missile with a laser? They can't do it with a missile without finding an STC. The targeting system for a heat-seeking missile is a LOT simpler than the one for a laser-defense system that has to tell the different between friendly projectiles and enemy projectiles.


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 Psienesis wrote:
The targeting laser isn't required to fire a lascannon 10km. While the gunner may not be able to see a target that far away (hence requiring the targeting laser), that does not prevent the beam from going that far. Sure, anything hit by such a beam is more luck than skill, but that's irrelevant to the point.

If your targeting systems can't identify targets that far away, and there is no way to manually target the tank, that would certainly prevent it from shooting that far.


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 Psienesis wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:

Quickjager wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Guyz, that's 5 pages of off-top. Let the thread die, gw hasn't put any greater purpose in tau yet. I'm sure, they will cause the models are selling good but not yet. Wait for a 7-th ed tau codex with ethereal LOW, nerfs and greater purpose.

Yea I'm done talking with them, it has been a while I've seen some people with their heads so far in the ground.

I second this.

I started this thread hoping to look at the big picture, speculate and try to join the dots in the Tau fluff but it seems to have descended into off topic arguing between Imperial and Tau fans sadly.

We answered your question 10 pages ago. There isn't one that has been stated by GW in any clear sense, so make one up if you want.

You could have just said that one sentence ten pages ago and dropped it. Instead, you and your Imperial troll buddies kept putting down the Tau Empire.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
Land Raider was a general purpose battle tank, all forces of the Imperium used it, not just Space Marines.

However the Horus Heresy destroyed many of them and the forgeworlds they were primarily built on, so they became exclusive for the elite of the elite.

So Land Raiders were the normal battle tank in DAoT, a 14/14/14 standard vehicle is already better than Tau. Leman Russes came DURING the Heresy. Please your mega-bias is showing that you don't bother checking other faction's fluff. Also DAoT ISN'T the pinnacle of humanity, kinda why it has the word DARK in it.

EDIT: Correction, apparently some fluff was changed, came during the Crusade.

... except if you look at the weapon systems, or the fact that the Hammerhead hovers. A railgun has over half again the range of a lascannon. On a 4x6 mat, that's not a big deal, but in the kind of open terrain tank battles in 40k would actually take place on, than means the hammerheads get several salvos off before the LR is in range... assuming the Tau can't just back up and keep pounding away, outside of LR weapons range.

... and what's another point of armor versus a jink save?

There's also no reason to believe that the Leman Russ wasn't from an STC. The Predator most assuredly was.

The Age of Technology has the word dark in it because of Imperial Cult Propaganda.

"Although a "golden age" in terms of scientific achievement, because of the catastrophic effects of the following Age of Strife, mankind has since come to regard scientific knowledge as abhorrent and dangerous. The Age of Technology is thus considered "dark" in the Imperium's current age. It is also considered a dark age because mankind in the Age of Technology had come to worship science as God. "

Game mechanic extractions are both pointlessly stupid and asinine. In "real" 40k, a lascannon would have a far greater effective range than even a railgun if the Tau don't have spotters, with the only depending factor being how clear the atmosphere of the current battlefield would be that would dilute the atmosphere.Looking at many modern military lasers of far lesser firepower than the lascannon, it should have about ~10 kilometers depending on the weather.

You got that backwards. A lascannon can only have a greater effective range than a Tau railgun it it has spotters.

As we all know from the Taros campaign, there are areas of technology where the IoM trails behind the US Army (night vision, in this particular instance). That's not merely a game mechanic- it's something FW wrote about... Tau using night to beat the crap out of the Guard, because they don't have night vision equipment.

If the IoM doesn't have the technology to equip their tanks with infrared sensors, I doubt they can target lasers out to ten kilometers.

That only works if the Tau actually can use their railguns indirectly. Lascannons meanwhile, while still suffering from being a purely linear vector of fire (which a railgun also is, only to a lesser degree with diable velocity depending if the railgun is advanced and the designers were intelligent), have a much larger vertical range. Which also increases the further you ascend in the atmosphere. The only real problem is the air quality and what's it filled with that might refract and dissipate the laser. So in some cases the railgun might have greater range, while in others the lascannon would laughably out-shoot the railgun.

If the IoM doesn't have the technology to equip their tanks with infrared sensors, I doubt they can target lasers out to ten kilometers.

Please tell me you mean targeting cogitators and not that a lascannon wouldn't have a maim range of ten kilometers where it would be at least capable of shooting out ordinance. I really don't want to lose more faith in humanity, because if that's you thinking a lascannon would have a shorter range then ten kilometers, wow.

Also, the Imperium does have night-vision. Space Marines have everything from infrared to sonic "vision" specs, and Scions have infrared as well. Also note as well that anything Forge World adresses only refers to that specific regiment or chapter, and not the entire organization. Basic Imperium knowledge 101 (which you tend to lack or hide very convincingly at the very least) is that Imperial Guard regiments vary wildly between equipment, depending entirely on the wealth of the world that created them, the forge-world that supplied the, and the influence of those officers backing that regiment.

To reinforce the point I made earlier about the US Army comparing favorably to the IoM, let's talk about how the IoM doesn't have the targeting know-how to do that.

The US Army has a vehicle called the M-6. It's an M-2 Bradley chassis that they strapped some Stinger missiles and a radar onto.

By the Space Marine Codex, the Space Marines and AdMech couldn't figure out how to do the same with a Rhino chassis. They had to find an STC, because that was too difficult for them. They couldn't figure it out... one million genetically-modified super-soldiers and (presumably) billions of the "brightest" technological minds in the Imperium.

Hitting a missile with a laser? They can't do it with a missile without finding an STC. The targeting system for a heat-seeking missile is a LOT simpler than the one for a laser-defense system that has to tell the different between friendly projectiles and enemy projectiles.

Actually they can do this. This is part of the function of the point-defense lasers found on the various ships of the Imperial Navy and non-military fleets (like Rogue Traders). The cogitation systems of these turrets is more than capable of IFF operation.

Further, the Space Marines (and other militant luminaries) have access to what is called a Spoor Targeter. This is an upgrade/option to a weapon that will track and "lock on" to a specified target, or group of targets, based on genetic and pheromonal input. So one could, for example, set the targeter either for "Eldar" or "one specific Eldar". While in use, the Spoor Targeter prevents the weapon from firing on targets that don't match the in-loaded profile, so you could (for example) open up with an assault cannon in a crowded street and shoot only the Eldar standing there amongst the humans... or shoot one specific Eldar out of a crowd of Eldar.

If your targeting systems can't identify targets that far away, and there is no way to manually target the tank, that would certainly prevent it from shooting that far

You can't see the Earth from the Sun, but that doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching us. Point the barrel in a direction and press the activation stud. The lascannon will fire an armor-melting beam of coherent light out to however far it can, regardless of whether or not you're aiming at something (assuming, obviously, no intervening mountains and such). That you, the firer, cannot see that far is irrelevant to the lascannon. It gives not a single feth, it just throws lethal light as far as it can before thermal dissipation and environmental conditions cause the beam to lose coherency.

Theoretically, a lascannon would have a virtually unlimited range in space, apart from the presence of a nebula (to dissipate the beam in its opaque gases) or solid objects (to absorb the beam) and so forth.

 Psienesis wrote:

To reinforce the point I made earlier about the US Army comparing favorably to the IoM, let's talk about how the IoM doesn't have the targeting know-how to do that.

The US Army has a vehicle called the M-6. It's an M-2 Bradley chassis that they strapped some Stinger missiles and a radar onto.

By the Space Marine Codex, the Space Marines and AdMech couldn't figure out how to do the same with a Rhino chassis. They had to find an STC, because that was too difficult for them. They couldn't figure it out... one million genetically-modified super-soldiers and (presumably) billions of the "brightest" technological minds in the Imperium.

Hitting a missile with a laser? They can't do it with a missile without finding an STC. The targeting system for a heat-seeking missile is a LOT simpler than the one for a laser-defense system that has to tell the different between friendly projectiles and enemy projectiles.

Actually they can do this. This is part of the function of the point-defense lasers found on the various ships of the Imperial Navy and non-military fleets (like Rogue Traders). The cogitation systems of these turrets is more than capable of IFF operation.

Further, the Space Marines (and other militant luminaries) have access to what is called a Spoor Targeter. This is an upgrade/option to a weapon that will track and "lock on" to a specified target, or group of targets, based on genetic and pheromonal input. So one could, for example, set the targeter either for "Eldar" or "one specific Eldar". While in use, the Spoor Targeter prevents the weapon from firing on targets that don't match the in-loaded profile, so you could (for example) open up with an assault cannon in a crowded street and shoot only the Eldar standing there amongst the humans... or shoot one specific Eldar out of a crowd of Eldar.

If your targeting systems can't identify targets that far away, and there is no way to manually target the tank, that would certainly prevent it from shooting that far

You can't see the Earth from the Sun, but that doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching us. Point the barrel in a direction and press the activation stud. The lascannon will fire an armor-melting beam of coherent light out to however far it can, regardless of whether or not you're aiming at something (assuming, obviously, no intervening mountains and such). That you, the firer, cannot see that far is irrelevant to the lascannon. It gives not a single feth, it just throws lethal light as far as it can before thermal dissipation and environmental conditions cause the beam to lose coherency.

Theoretically, a lascannon would have a virtually unlimited range in space, apart from the presence of a nebula (to dissipate the beam in its opaque gases) or solid objects (to absorb the beam) and so forth.

Also, given the absolute hilarious power of the lascannon which is capable of frying tanks with incredible ease at around ~2km, beyond that it would stlll be functioning like a modern military laser at 10km or so, and be capable of heating up and blowing holes in aircraft that cause them to crash, or heating up and detonating parts of missiles and warheads to blow them out of the sky. It'd help though if we knew the energy output of the lascannon so we could compare it to something like THEL and figure out the maximum range of it in earth-like conditions.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Also, the Imperium does have night-vision. Space Marines have everything from infrared to sonic "vision" specs, and Scions have infrared as well. Also note as well that anything Forge World adresses only refers to that specific regiment or chapter, and not the entire organization. Basic Imperium knowledge 101 (which you tend to lack or hide very convincingly at the very least) is that Imperial Guard regiments vary wildly between equipment, depending entirely on the wealth of the world that created them, the forge-world that supplied the, and the influence of those officers backing that regiment.

... and as we all know, the ability of the AdMech to build things without an STC is next to nothing. If no STC for night-vision equipment outside of SM power armor exists, it doesn't exist anywhere in the Imperium. Anywhere. Whatsoever. At all.

Given that even Space Marines have to put searchlights on their tanks in order to hit enemies at night, I think it is safe to assume it is built into the armor and the AdMech has no idea how it works. They just assemble things according to the armor's STC and it works. They don't know how, just that it does.

... and yes, I'm pretty sure that the maximum range of many Imperial weapons is based on how incredibly poor their targeting systems are.

NV goggles exist in the Guard, but not every regiment gets them. The Storm Troopers have them, and I seem to recall there being a Cadian model with them on his face.

Basically, just about every technology that exists in the modern world exists in 40K, but it may not be found in all places, on all people. The Imperium is too vast, its forces too diverse, to have blanket rules like that.

... and yes, I'm pretty sure that the maximum range of many Imperial weapons is based on how incredibly poor their targeting systems are.

That's not how you calculate maximum range, that'd be effective range.

 Psienesis wrote:

Actually they can do this. This is part of the function of the point-defense lasers found on the various ships of the Imperial Navy and non-military fleets (like Rogue Traders). The cogitation systems of these turrets is more than capable of IFF operation.

Further, the Space Marines (and other militant luminaries) have access to what is called a Spoor Targeter. This is an upgrade/option to a weapon that will track and "lock on" to a specified target, or group of targets, based on genetic and pheromonal input. So one could, for example, set the targeter either for "Eldar" or "one specific Eldar". While in use, the Spoor Targeter prevents the weapon from firing on targets that don't match the in-loaded profile, so you could (for example) open up with an assault cannon in a crowded street and shoot only the Eldar standing there amongst the humans... or shoot one specific Eldar out of a crowd of Eldar.

If your targeting systems can't identify targets that far away, and there is no way to manually target the tank, that would certainly prevent it from shooting that far

You can't see the Earth from the Sun, but that doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching us. Point the barrel in a direction and press the activation stud. The lascannon will fire an armor-melting beam of coherent light out to however far it can, regardless of whether or not you're aiming at something (assuming, obviously, no intervening mountains and such). That you, the firer, cannot see that far is irrelevant to the lascannon. It gives not a single feth, it just throws lethal light as far as it can before thermal dissipation and environmental conditions cause the beam to lose coherency.

Theoretically, a lascannon would have a virtually unlimited range in space, apart from the presence of a nebula (to dissipate the beam in its opaque gases) or solid objects (to absorb the beam) and so forth.

Saying that "the Imperium has things that do this" and "the Imperium can do this" are, actually, two different things, as I've pointed out with night vision.

For the AdMech, it is simply impossible to put the targeting systems that allow a warship to do that in a land raider - not because it is impossible (the US Army either can do this now, or will be in the next 10 years), but because the Imperials work with technology like a chimpanzee would work with a gun. Sure, someone could train it how to use the thing, but there is no rational understanding going on. You do X ritual, and it works. You have no idea why.

While a lascannon may be able to project energy that far, it has no ability to target anything that far away. Until the IoM starts taping Guadsmen to the underside of their lascannons (which probably would kill the Guardsman from the heat generated upon firing) there is no way to sight down the barrel inside of a big metal box. You have to rely on the vehicle's optics to do that... and Imperial optics apparently aren't all that great.


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 Psienesis wrote:
NV goggles exist in the Guard, but not every regiment gets them. The Storm Troopers have them, and I seem to recall there being a Cadian model with them on his face.

Basically, just about every technology that exists in the modern world exists in 40K, but it may not be found in all places, on all people. The Imperium is too vast, its forces too diverse, to have blanket rules like that.

... and yes, I'm pretty sure that the maximum range of many Imperial weapons is based on how incredibly poor their targeting systems are.

That's not how you calculate maximum range, that'd be effective range.

... you do realize that arguing over semantics doesn't make the Imperium's weapons better, right?

At any rate, I think you're confusing night vision gear with binoculars.

... and pointing out how vast the Imperium is doesn't mean everything is possible. The vastness of the Imperium hasn't allowed it to reverse-engineer Eldar technology, despite tens of thousands of years capturing it. Why? All xenotech is heresy, so they break it. If there is variance, EXTERMINATUS!!! The entire world where one person managed it is glassed... and the Imperium is ruthless and systematic about doing it. If there is no STC for night vision goggles, there are no night vision goggles. Period. Because who ever manages such a feat (and do watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw for saying whether that's even possible) will probably be killed for it by the AdMech for heresy.

Guys petty insults like "if you think this then I lose faith in humanity" are a sure fire way to get everyone riled up and send a thread on a way one trip to lock city. Surely you can discuss this fictional topic without resorting to that.

 carlos13th wrote:
Guys petty insults like "if you think this then I lose faith in humanity" are a sure fire way to get everyone riled up and send a thread on a way one trip to lock city. Surely you can discuss this fictional topic without resorting to that.

We're past the point where we can actually discuss the topic. We started on that path when two self-absorbed, pro-Imperial trolls showed up on the first page to talk about how everything is there for the Imperium to destroy... when they've obviously failed to do so yet.

I've asked for them to go away. This is a topic I like, but I'll be damned if they get to dis on the Tau without someone pointing out how poorly their inevitable extermination is going.

For the AdMech, it is simply impossible to put the targeting systems that allow a warship to do that in a land raider - not because it is impossible (the US Army either can do this now, or will be in the next 10 years), but because the Imperials work with technology like a chimpanzee would work with a gun. Sure, someone could train it how to use the thing, but there is no rational understanding going on. You do X ritual, and it works. You have no idea why.

For the US Army, it is simply impossible to give an infantryman a weapon that can be reloaded by exposing its magazines to the sun (the AdMech can do this now, and has been able to do this for over 30,000 years).

The setting of 40K is not intended to be comparable to the design and aesthetics of a modern military. It is intended to appear anachronistic, to be the Dark Ages in Spaaace, with laser guns and flying tanks.

Also, they do have NVGs, just not on every soldier. Of course, not every soldier in the US Army is issued them, either.

vastness of the Imperium hasn't allowed it to reverse-engineer Eldar technology,

The Haywire Grenade would like a word.

All xenotech is heresy, so they break it

The Deathwatch would like a word. Capturing and studying Xeno technology is part of their mission. They share this information with the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ordo Xenos.

The Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau tanks are STILL, on a flat battlefield, going to be able to outmaneuver and destroy the best tanks the IoM has to offer, right?

The Banesword, with its 180" (yes, that's fifteen feet... you can troll the WFB game on the next table) tabletop range (S9 AP3, 10" Blast) would like a word. By scale, that is a shell that is reaching across the curvature of some worlds.

Though, who was talking about tanks? I'm talking about the range on a lascannon, which is a squad support weapon.

I thought the imp made there own haywire, it is just EMP.

That's its effect, it's based on the Eldar design. This is one of the things the Deathwatch gave the AdMech.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I thought the imp made there own haywire, it is just EMP.

The Tau invented their own... and are common enough that any Fire Warrior squad can take them.

Guardsmen? Not so much.

The Guardsmen don't often need them. They have lascannons for anti-vehicles work (or melta-bombs, or krak grenades, or other tanks). The Guardsmen are, also, primarily an anti-infantry force, and are most-often deployed (per fluff) against other humans, who also don't have many high-tech vehicles or equipment to worry about, so a couple of frag grenades and maybe a krak or a meltabomb will prove far more useful in the day-to-day of the average Guardsman than a specialized bit of wargear like a Haywire grenade (also noting that high-tech equipment can be neutralized via the blunt object that is a krak grenade or meltabomb as easily as it is temporarily disabled by a Haywire grenade).

End of the day, it doesn't matter that much. Yes, the Fire Warrior, as the baseline troop for the Tau military, is much better-equipped than the standard Guardsman. I don't think anyone in this thread has tried to say they aren't.

Yes, on the average, the Tau tend to be more technologically advanced than the Imperium, but the extremes of Imperial tech currently available exceeds that which the Tau have so far managed to create, and do so to a very great degree.

Things like the Rosarius and the Displacement Field (the latter of which may also be a stolen Eldar design, I forget), the Mind-Impulse Unit (arguably they are on par there, granted), terraforming (it is noted the AdMech still does this via a number of ways), interstellar communications and navigation, the teleportarium... basically anything that makes use of the Warp, the Imperium has a far greater understanding of it and how to manipulate it than the Tau are likely to ever have, especially considering that their only truly psychic resource isn't really into fast travel so much. They're also kept very, very secret.

Vortex Grenades are something else the Tau have no answer for or counter to. These, though, are thankfully rare, because otherwise the galaxy might just devour itself.

Oh, and digital weapons. The Imperium has a lot of digital weapons, which can be really, really nasty (like a meltagun that fits on your finger).

And then we get into those one-off or rare relics of the DAoT that are truly impressive. The archaeotech that, say, packs the firepower of a lascannon into a laspistol, or provides an accurate map of the local Warp, updated in real-time. There's all kinds of DAoT relics that pop up now and then, kept by Chapter Masters or Inquisitors or Rogue Traders or similar sorts with the clout and the firepower to keep their private collections private.

 Psienesis wrote:
For the US Army, it is simply impossible to give an infantryman a weapon that can be reloaded by exposing its magazines to the sun (the AdMech can do this now, and has been able to do this for over 30,000 years).

The setting of 40K is not intended to be comparable to the design and aesthetics of a modern military. It is intended to appear anachronistic, to be the Dark Ages in Spaaace, with laser guns and flying tanks.

Also, they do have NVGs, just not on every soldier. Of course, not every soldier in the US Army is issued them, either.

The Haywire Grenade would like a word.

The Deathwatch would like a word. Capturing and studying Xeno technology is part of their mission. They share this information with the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ordo Xenos.

The Banesword, with its 180" (yes, that's fifteen feet... you can troll the WFB game on the next table) tabletop range (S9 AP3, 10" Blast) would like a word. By scale, that is a shell that is reaching across the curvature of some worlds.

Though, who was talking about tanks? I'm talking about the range on a lascannon, which is a squad support weapon.

The AdMech can follow the instructions to build them. If the STC disappeared and the factories blew up, they'd probably never be able to recreate it.

The Astra Militarum codex would like a word about how common night vision gear is, since they can't actually use it. Ya know, the Astra Militarum. Ya know, any of them. At all.

So, fun times! I found an entry for EMP grenades in a book- specifically, the Deathwatch RPG!

"A rare example of xenos technology employed in limited capacity by the Deathwatch, the exact form of such a grenade varies by its origin. The function of an EMP grenade is to generate a field of electro-magnetic static that interferes with most technology and generally causes machine spirits to malfunction. There are many appellations for this weapon: EMP, Haywire, and Scrambler and it takes many shapes including those found with the Eldar and Tau."

What can we learn from this? (and the item description)

1) That using xenos technology is rare even in the Deathwatch.

2) There is no Imperial haywire grenade. It doesn't sound like they reverse-engineered it, so much as they figured out which button to press before throwing.

3) Even in the Deathwatch, it is hard to get technology that the Eldar and Tau hand out to their troops like delicious candy.

Remember- Mr. Baal Predator says, "Not everything found by Space Marines gets shared with the AdMech!"

Of course, if everything in tabletop was like it was in Deathwatch, photon grenades would do blind, instead of working like smoke grenades.

The lascannon on a Predator or Land Raider maxes out at the same point as the infantry weapon, as I understand it... though, infantry weapons have to be aimed as well. Apparently, no further than tanks can manage. In all fairness, lascannons do outrange sniper rifles... and I do say sniper rifles, because Tau sniper drones can hit at 48."

Also- while you might deserve some credit for (finally) finding a (rare) super-weapon that has some good range on it, it's slow and not amphibious, hard to build and supply, doesn't fit on small agile transports... and lacks night-fighting gear most sophisticated than a searchlight. The outmaneuver part stays.


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 Psienesis wrote:
The Guardsmen don't often need them. They have lascannons for anti-vehicles work (or melta-bombs, or krak grenades, or other tanks). The Guardsmen are, also, primarily an anti-infantry force, and are most-often deployed (per fluff) against other humans, who also don't have many high-tech vehicles or equipment to worry about, so a couple of frag grenades and maybe a krak or a meltabomb will prove far more useful in the day-to-day of the average Guardsman than a specialized bit of wargear like a Haywire grenade (also noting that high-tech equipment can be neutralized via the blunt object that is a krak grenade or meltabomb as easily as it is temporarily disabled by a Haywire grenade).

End of the day, it doesn't matter that much. Yes, the Fire Warrior, as the baseline troop for the Tau military, is much better-equipped than the standard Guardsman. I don't think anyone in this thread has tried to say they aren't.

Yes, on the average, the Tau tend to be more technologically advanced than the Imperium, but the extremes of Imperial tech currently available exceeds that which the Tau have so far managed to create, and do so to a very great degree.

Things like the Rosarius and the Displacement Field (the latter of which may also be a stolen Eldar design, I forget), the Mind-Impulse Unit (arguably they are on par there, granted), terraforming (it is noted the AdMech still does this via a number of ways), interstellar communications and navigation, the teleportarium... basically anything that makes use of the Warp, the Imperium has a far greater understanding of it and how to manipulate it than the Tau are likely to ever have, especially considering that their only truly psychic resource isn't really into fast travel so much. They're also kept very, very secret.

Vortex Grenades are something else the Tau have no answer for or counter to. These, though, are thankfully rare, because otherwise the galaxy might just devour itself.

Oh, and digital weapons. The Imperium has a lot of digital weapons, which can be really, really nasty (like a meltagun that fits on your finger).

And then we get into those one-off or rare relics of the DAoT that are truly impressive. The archaeotech that, say, packs the firepower of a lascannon into a laspistol, or provides an accurate map of the local Warp, updated in real-time. There's all kinds of DAoT relics that pop up now and then, kept by Chapter Masters or Inquisitors or Rogue Traders or similar sorts with the clout and the firepower to keep their private collections private.

Wait... temporarily disable? I think I know how you get a lot of your perspective... most of you time playing in the 40k universe isn't from the tabletop game- it's from Bolter Porn the RPG. Am I right? Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you- it's just not always consistent with the tabletop game. Haywire grenades can glance vehicles to death or blow them up up almost as well/as well/better than a krak missile (depending on whether the target is a trukk, a tank, or a land raider). I'm not sure where other than Deathwatch an EMP grenade doesn't blow stuff up. Of course, it'd be awesome if EMP grenades in tabletop had a chance to unpower enemies in power armor (I daresay, attempting melee with Tau units might become unwise for Space Marines... which'd be HILARIOUS!!!)

The Rosarius does the same thing as a Tau shield generator on a Crisis suit... except it for some reason can't be given to standard marines. Every shield drone has one, and any Crisis suit can take them. I'm sure, in the future, they'll become more common in the Tau arsenal. Digital weapons don't work for non-Jaekero the way they work for the Jaekero... at least in tabletop. It's easy to justify that that was an intentional design choice by the Old Ones, who made the J. Digital weapons aren't human technology- they're Old One technology. If the Tau captured some, they'd have the same capability- though, in tabletop, that's kinda yawn-worthy for not-melee-oriented Tau.

I'm actually going to start a new topic about the high points of archaeotech, so we can take that discussion there.

... and it's hard to say what the Tau Empire can and can't do with the Warp. The Tau have at least one Warp-sensitive ally, like you said... which they've had for quite some time. We also know that the Tau have gone to great lengths to hide this from the Imperium (and every source I've seen that mentions it also says it is for the ally's benefit, because humans hate psykers). There might be an ace in the hole there. We don't know, since Black Library doesn't like writing books for us.

You're all forgetting one important thing, the Imperium has more bodies in one crusade that all of the Tau empire combined.

It doesn't matter how cool your tanks are, hell, give every Tau a Hammerhead, a Riptide, or Broadside and it STILL won't matter.

Read the fluff, the author's are the only ones keeping the Tau empire alive, not some amazing rifles, hover tanks, or Space-Frog based Communism. It's said as much in the most recent incarnation of the rules/fluff/whatever, that after the most recent ass-kicking the Tau handed out via their like, whole 100 Riptides, the IoM decided to stop fething around and send a proper Crusade their way.

Something like a few hundred or maybe thousand Guard regiments, multiple Space Marine chapters, and various other amazing things the Tau have no answer to.

God help the Tau, because if the fluff advances ever, they're screwed.

That really is irrelevant to the topic.

 Frankenberry wrote:
You're all forgetting one important thing, the Imperium has more bodies in one crusade that all of the Tau empire combined.

It doesn't matter how cool your tanks are, hell, give every Tau a Hammerhead, a Riptide, or Broadside and it STILL won't matter.

Read the fluff, the author's are the only ones keeping the Tau empire alive, not some amazing rifles, hover tanks, or Space-Frog based Communism. It's said as much in the most recent incarnation of the rules/fluff/whatever, that after the most recent ass-kicking the Tau handed out via their like, whole 100 Riptides, the IoM decided to stop fething around and send a proper Crusade their way.

Something like a few hundred or maybe thousand Guard regiments, multiple Space Marine chapters, and various other amazing things the Tau have no answer to.

God help the Tau, because if the fluff advances ever, they're screwed.

I think you underestimate the amount of population on 170 populated, industrialized planets. The Tau military, probably, The tau empire, no. Also, tau do have answers to pretty much anything that imperium has. That doesn't mean that they tau would automatically win, but they do have answers. Also, where is this info of a new crusade from?

 Psienesis wrote:

Theoretically, a lascannon would have a virtually unlimited range in space, apart from the presence of a nebula (to dissipate the beam in its opaque gases) or solid objects (to absorb the beam) and so forth.

Not really no.

Lasers are just very big light emission devices (light bulbs if you wish) coupled with optics that focus that light into a very thin beam.
The destructive power is comes from the concentration of energy in one tiny spot, and if that beam widens (which it always does) to say twice the radius, only one fourth of the power per square millimeter is delivered, basically nullifying it's combat potential (it was not designed to deliver four times the power just because).

For now, there do not exist any lasers with perfect beam parallelism, and if you want an interesting example, a beam was fired to the moon, reflected by a mirror on the moon, and received back on Earth.
This was done to measure the distance between the Earth and the Moon, and the beam that came back had a radius of about one meter, and as most lasers had a beam of less than 1mm in diameter when it left Earth.

That distance is not applicable to a battlefield other than space, but atmospheric perturbations and other lens effects due to air temperature, some of which can be caused by the laser itself, will greatly impede its ability to function at full power.

The laser only works by delivering a ton of power through a light beam to a target.
This is not instantaneous, the beam reaches the target, and heats it for X amount every second.
Provided it hits in the same spot for one second, that spot will usually be melted - unless of course it reflects light a whole lot, which will completely nullify the laser (a missile with a mirror polish head would not be harmed by a laser).

Military lasers are of course designed to provide very short very intense bursts to alleviate that duration concern, but they still can't do more than pierce a very thin hole and if what they're shooting at was designed to handle that (like any space fighter drone for example, because micro-meteorites), they basically just wasted a ton of power to no effect.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Guys petty insults like "if you think this then I lose faith in humanity" are a sure fire way to get everyone riled up and send a thread on a way one trip to lock city. Surely you can discuss this fictional topic without resorting to that.

We're past the point where we can actually discuss the topic. We started on that path when two self-absorbed, pro-Imperial trolls showed up on the first page to talk about how everything is there for the Imperium to destroy... when they've obviously failed to do so yet.

I've asked for them to go away. This is a topic I like, but I'll be damned if they get to dis on the Tau without someone pointing out how poorly their inevitable extermination is going.

May I request you to drop your False Claims and stop that thread derailment too please.


Am sure I've pointed out who is responsible before.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think you underestimate the amount of population on 170 populated, industrialized planets. The Tau military, probably, The tau empire, no. Also, tau do have answers to pretty much anything that imperium has. That doesn't mean that they tau would automatically win, but they do have answers. Also, where is this info of a new crusade from?

Its from C: Astra Militarum p 24

Is there anything about what the Harlequins are planning in general? What their goals are, past fighting Chaos and defending the Library? The Eldar and D Eldar codexes don't mention a whole lot about them.

Just to throw this thought out there- given that the Tau don't possess psykers that could abuse its powers, could the Harls have started this as an effort to create new (or just additional) custodians for the Black Library, since Eldar are a dying race?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:


God help the Tau, because if the fluff advances ever, they're screwed.

It'll be rerouted to Cadia, since Abaddon took it and is going to use it to expand the Eye of Terror... if they forward the timeline back to the point where it happens.

Remember? Abaddon? The guy who sacked/is sacking/will sack Cadia?

Any pretenses about what the Imperium can/will do is based on what he does... not what the Imperium wants to do. Destroying the Tau means nothing if Abaddon floods the universe, up to and including Holy Terra, with daemons. Game over. Chaos wins.

To quote myself

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

This is one of the reason's I have always liked tau, they are underdogs. They are up against impossible odds, yet if the imperium is truly crippled by the forces of chaos (something like Abbidon taking terra and the light of the astronomicon going out, than tau would have a definite chance to grow. An imperium sindisarray would not organise, systems would stay to their own and protect their own. Orks, necrons, eldar, and tau could take planets with relative ease if they did not have to prepare for imperial backup. Not that that would ever happen because GW refuses to advance the timline.*

*Honesty, this could form a pretty cool story-line. Whatever of the imperium's leadership was left would have to try to pick the imperium back up to reclaim Terra and re-light the astronomicon. Meanwhile, the tyranids continue advance, to the points where the imp might even question it's rules not to deal with aliens. A ridiculously sized Ork WAAGH led by ol' Grahzgul thraka would emerge, taking advantage of the weakened forces, and sewing mayhem and havoc in their wake. The necron dynasties continue to rise. Tau expansion accelerates. The eldar do more mysterious shiz-wazz. ect.

morgoth wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Theoretically, a lascannon would have a virtually unlimited range in space, apart from the presence of a nebula (to dissipate the beam in its opaque gases) or solid objects (to absorb the beam) and so forth.

Not really no.

Lasers are just very big light emission devices (light bulbs if you wish) coupled with optics that focus that light into a very thin beam.
The destructive power is comes from the concentration of energy in one tiny spot, and if that beam widens (which it always does) to say twice the radius, only one fourth of the power per square millimeter is delivered, basically nullifying it's combat potential (it was not designed to deliver four times the power just because).

For now, there do not exist any lasers with perfect beam parallelism, and if you want an interesting example, a beam was fired to the moon, reflected by a mirror on the moon, and received back on Earth.
This was done to measure the distance between the Earth and the Moon, and the beam that came back had a radius of about one meter, and as most lasers had a beam of less than 1mm in diameter when it left Earth.

That distance is not applicable to a battlefield other than space, but atmospheric perturbations and other lens effects due to air temperature, some of which can be caused by the laser itself, will greatly impede its ability to function at full power.

The laser only works by delivering a ton of power through a light beam to a target.
This is not instantaneous, the beam reaches the target, and heats it for X amount every second.
Provided it hits in the same spot for one second, that spot will usually be melted - unless of course it reflects light a whole lot, which will completely nullify the laser (a missile with a mirror polish head would not be harmed by a laser).

Military lasers are of course designed to provide very short very intense bursts to alleviate that duration concern, but they still can't do more than pierce a very thin hole and if what they're shooting at was designed to handle that (like any space fighter drone for example, because micro-meteorites), they basically just wasted a ton of power to no effect.

What lasers do now has absolutely no bearing on how lasers in 40K work. If you hadn't noticed, the muzzle of a lascannon is some six inches wide, and melts meter-wide holes through tanks in the blink of an eye. You also used the example of something that supports my argument. The beam dispersed traveling through the atmosphere... yes, this happens, which is why lascannons have a range on the tabletop, but lascannons in BFG fire tens of thousands of kilometers, which is probably the range of the targeting systems.

In space, unlike from Terra to Luna and back, there's nothing to cause the beam to lose coherency. There's no atmosphere to refract the beam. Without some sort of effect that causes the beam to widen, it will travel forever (which is basic Newtonian physics).

One thing to remember about discussing the tech of 40K is that real-world science and, often, basic common sense do not apply. Tech in 40K operates on the Rule of Cool.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Is there anything about what the Harlequins are planning in general? What their goals are, past fighting Chaos and defending the Library? The Eldar and D Eldar codexes don't mention a whole lot about them.

Just to throw this thought out there- given that the Tau don't possess psykers that could abuse its powers, could the Harls have started this as an effort to create new (or just additional) custodians for the Black Library, since Eldar are a dying race?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:


God help the Tau, because if the fluff advances ever, they're screwed.

It'll be rerouted to Cadia, since Abaddon took it and is going to use it to expand the Eye of Terror... if they forward the timeline back to the point where it happens.

Remember? Abaddon? The guy who sacked/is sacking/will sack Cadia?

Any pretenses about what the Imperium can/will do is based on what he does... not what the Imperium wants to do. Destroying the Tau means nothing if Abaddon floods the universe, up to and including Holy Terra, with daemons. Game over. Chaos wins.

He lost the fight in space, that means he loses the ground war, the same as it's been since the invention of flying weapons. Additionally, he holds either 51% or 50% (according to that stupid campaign GW did), also massive reinforcements are enroute, the guy doesn't have a chance.

Since the 13th BC was rolled back to its beginning, rather than its end, it's anyone's guess how that will all shake out. For all we know, Abaddon will just blow the planet up and roll on by this time.

 Psienesis wrote:
Since the 13th BC was rolled back to its beginning, rather than its end, it's anyone's guess how that will all shake out. For all we know, Abaddon will just blow the planet up and roll on by this time.

Of course it was rolled back- the imperium relies on plot armor a lot more than the Tau do. Plot armor is what keeps the Imperium from being destroyed by the necrons... and tyranids... and Chaos. The Tau are at least small enough to evade notice and advanced enough to put up a better-than-average fight when they are. The Imperium has no such excuse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Is there anything about what the Harlequins are planning in general? What their goals are, past fighting Chaos and defending the Library? The Eldar and D Eldar codexes don't mention a whole lot about them.

Just to throw this thought out there- given that the Tau don't possess psykers that could abuse its powers, could the Harls have started this as an effort to create new (or just additional) custodians for the Black Library, since Eldar are a dying race?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:


God help the Tau, because if the fluff advances ever, they're screwed.

It'll be rerouted to Cadia, since Abaddon took it and is going to use it to expand the Eye of Terror... if they forward the timeline back to the point where it happens.

Remember? Abaddon? The guy who sacked/is sacking/will sack Cadia?

Any pretenses about what the Imperium can/will do is based on what he does... not what the Imperium wants to do. Destroying the Tau means nothing if Abaddon floods the universe, up to and including Holy Terra, with daemons. Game over. Chaos wins.

He lost the fight in space, that means he loses the ground war, the same as it's been since the invention of flying weapons. Additionally, he holds either 51% or 50% (according to that stupid campaign GW did), also massive reinforcements are enroute, the guy doesn't have a chance.

The US had air supremacy in Vietnam. The Soviet Union opposed no air force in Afghanistan. ISIS has no air force, and is being the Iraqi Army over the table.

Abaddon doesn't need ti fight the Imperium to the last man. He just needs to suck the sector into the warp.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Of course it was rolled back- the imperium relies on plot armor a lot more than the Tau do. Plot armor is what keeps the Imperium from being destroyed by the necrons... and tyranids... and Chaos.

I'd argue the Tau have far more plot armour. The Imperium loses large numbers of planets to the big threats they face. The Tau either lose one or two (Tyranids) or the threat conveniently leaves (Necrons). With the exception of Space Marines (sometimes) the Imperium usually fights a bloody fight for it's victories. The Tau bizarrely typically fare better than even the Eldar (or at least that's how it's portrayed).

The US had air supremacy in Vietnam. The Soviet Union opposed no air force in Afghanistan. ISIS has no air force, and is being the Iraqi Army over the table.

Militarily the US dominated Vietnam. The Soviet Union did the same in Afghanistan. Both of them were largely constrained by trying to limit civilian casualties. IS are using terror tactics against an unmotivated and ill-disciplined force. Iraq doesn't have much in the way of a national identity to fight for. Imperial soldiers would be far more likely to fight on. Besides that there are few portable weapons to defend against attacks from space in 40K. He'd have to capture the defence installations intact.

If Abaddon pulls vast areas of the Imperium into the Warp then the Tau, with absolutely no defence against such things, are going to be screwed too you know. Any psychically strong force has a massive advantage over the Tau (especially if you go by how the Thousand Sons were portrayed in the Horus Heresy novels). If the Pylons around the Eye of Terror are destroyed it starts expanding. If the Emperor dies the galaxy is doomed to Daemon incursions according to some sources. If the Imperium falls to Chaos then everyone is in trouble.

I doubt the Imperium will fall. It will shatter, but not fall.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I doubt the Imperium will fall. It will shatter, but not fall.

If Abaddon forges his Crimson Path he has a fairly unassailable strongpoint. His logistics would be almost untouchable and he'd be able to summon larger Daemon armies. One of the greatest concentrations of Imperial power would have been smashed asunder and he'd have a far greater array of targets to choose. He'd also have even greater support from the Ruinous Powers as he feeds them. The Imperium wouldn't topple overnight but the Crimson Path changes the game. Should the Imperium shatter it becomes easy prey to Abaddon (and potentially Huron I guess) and he would gain vast numbers of additional followers.

Not to mention that the Leviathan would be nigh-on unstoppable by a splintered Imperium.

Yea, I'm pretty sure that the narrative point of the Crimson Path is that if it succeeds, Chaos will win.

Of course, we thus know that the Crimson Path will likely never succeed cause then WH40k will end, but it might be one of the focuses of an end-times story like what WFB is getting if GW ever decides to do that (likely, they set it up as a "just in case we do decide to do that" thing)