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AlexRae wrote:
The book is worse than before because you have to spend around 200+ points on stuff you dont want to take in Troops tax to take the things you do want from Elites.

People posting about how their army from 6th is now 150pts cheaper in 7th are overlooking the fact it has 0 Objective Secured and probably isnt even close a legal 'bound' list due to FoC slot movements.

Who is going to take a CAD when you can get S5, I5 Army wide?
Also if Troops are now a Tax and people are going to be taking 2 Min Sized Scouts Squads just to Pay the Tax and load up on Elite and FA
Slots, OS is a waste of time.

Can i run my dc in a landraider?

I don't see why you can't put DC in a land raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

AlexRae wrote:
The book is worse than before because you have to spend around 200+ points on stuff you dont want to take in Troops tax to take the things you do want from Elites.

People posting about how their army from 6th is now 150pts cheaper in 7th are overlooking the fact it has 0 Objective Secured and probably isnt even close a legal 'bound' list due to FoC slot movements.

Who is going to take a CAD when you can get S5, I5 Army wide?
Also if Troops are now a Tax and people are going to be taking 2 Min Sized Scouts Squads just to Pay the Tax and load up on Elite and FA
Slots, OS is a waste of time.

"

Only on the charge. I would consider a CAD with this book. I'm considering a lot of things right now.

You get S5 on the charge anyway, no need for a Baal Detachment. You are basically trading Objective Secured for 'old' Furious Charge.

Objective Secured is important in competitive play due to the high number of on board objectives and objective missions played.

So the Baal detachment does lose objective secured. Are there any special formations that don't lose it?

None in the entireity of 40k apart from Tyranid Skyblight which is where the ObSec rule came from

AlexRae wrote:
None in the entireity of 40k apart from Tyranid Skyblight which is where the ObSec rule came from

Actually there is a detachment in the new BA book, The Battle comany which has both the +1 initiative and ObSec. No one will ever take it due to the required models but it is there.

 WisdomLS wrote:

AlexRae wrote:
None in the entireity of 40k apart from Tyranid Skyblight which is where the ObSec rule came from

Actually there is a detachment in the new BA book, The Battle comany which has both the +1 initiative and ObSec. No one will ever take it due to the required models but it is there.

It is a lot of points, but I only need the Death Company to field it.

Object Secured is really not the big deal the internets say it is, in actual games.

It does have it's uses, but with 6 objectives in most missions; and especially in Maelstrom games, I've found it infrequently comes into play.

Yes I think I could field it but suspect I never will.

I had my first game with the dex last night and thought I'd share my views. It wasn't a super competitive game but was up against a decent nid list with double flyrant, some pods and infiltrating stuff, tervigon, venomthrops, biovores and zonethropes.

1750pts, I used the new detachment. I decided to try to make a list the at least felt like a BA list consisting of: Dante, a sang priest, JP deathcompany, Sang Guard, small triple melta assault squad, double flamer assault squad, Fragioso dread in pod, dual autocannon dread, baal pred and for troops I took 5 sniper scouts and the dreadnought from deathstorm in a FA pod.

All in all everything worked fine, the deathcompany killed anything they could touch and dante is a real beast in combat, on the charge he puts out 7 attacks at S7, I7 AP:2, he's pretty silly. I won the game on turn 3 after catching my opponents flyrants on the ground and sweeping in with a wave of jumppacks and dreads with the aid of his poor rolling.

Conclusions after a single short game: The stuff that is in the book is fine, most things are reasonably costed and have their uses. The problems arrive when you start to build a list for more competitive play and then you start to realize that is it just a far less effective codex SM. It's missing so many of the elements that make SM very good like bikes, thunderfires, antiair in the form of the tanks or stormtalon, the flexability of chapter tactics.
In exchange for this we get a couple of good jump units which do one thing (charge) well, baal preds are lost in heavy support and unique dreads are still dread and we all know how effective they are.

So its not going to rip up any trees at a competitive level which I supose is fine, better than being eldar broken, none of us want that.

That means the codex is good for fun games and casual play which I enjoy but then I look at the FOC and get annoyed. I know that unhinged or unbound or whatever it's called exists but frankly myself and most other people even in casual scenes prefer to use the various FOC's and detachments, perhaps its just habit.

The main issues I have with the muddling with the FOC is the lose of flavour which then hurts the fun aspect of the codex. The lose of troop units is annoying, I know it might not be fluffy but having assault marines as troops was more fun and I like fun. So taking three units out of troops put them into other slots which then combined with their desire to make us adherent to the vanilla books foc forced lots of other changes. The HQ slot is to overloaded as is the elites and heavy.
the FA slot on the other hand, the one where you'd expect the BA to excel is just empty. There are three dedicated transports (they don't count in my book), three bike units (BA bikes? do they even exist?), a landspeeder and the aforementioned assault marines. If we're forced to play by marines standards where is the stormtalon which perfectly fits out playstyle or the landspeeder storm which would make one of the troop options fit our playstyle.
They aren't there and neither are the stormraven, baal pred or vanguard vets who would all have been at home in FA, as well as being considered alot more useful there and not lost in other slots and not getting used.

Sorry for the rant, I actually enjoyed my game with them and will be playing them again but the codex is such a missed opportunity that I get so annoyed by the makers of the game not caring as much or putting as much thought into it as we the fans do.

The FOC placement indeed is the let down in this book. GWs new policy of keeping things in their slots and no manipulation alongside unfathomable decisions to swap units around and pack out the HQ and Elites leaving everything else pretty barren hinders things.

It's arguably worse off than the old book. I feel I would easily beat this new book with the 5th Ed book.

AlexRae wrote:
The FOC placement indeed is the let down in this book. GWs new policy of keeping things in their slots and no manipulation alongside unfathomable decisions to swap units around and pack out the HQ and Elites leaving everything else pretty barren hinders things.

It's arguably worse off than the old book. I feel I would easily beat this new book with the 5th Ed book.

If they had policy like above, the Warddex would not have happened. Blood Angels are closer to their original dex now.

AlexRae wrote:
The book is worse than before because you have to spend around 200+ points on stuff you dont want to take in Troops tax to take the things you do want from Elites.

People posting about how their army from 6th is now 150pts cheaper in 7th are overlooking the fact it has 0 Objective Secured and probably isnt even close a legal 'bound' list due to FoC slot movements.

You can take Cassor the Damned as a DC-dread and 55 points of Scouts.
Those Scouts, on the Charge, have 12 attacks with S5, I5 at WS3 and 3 at WS4.
Have Corbulo nearby and that are 12 attacks at S5, I6 at WS4 and 3 at WS5.

Did we read that correctly? Yes, we have Scouts hitting at Initiative 6 because Corbulo's buff is cumulative with The Red Thirst.

Don't forget that Cassor the Damned can take a Lucius Pattern Drop Pod

AlexRae wrote:
It's arguably worse off than the old book. I feel I would easily beat this new book with the 5th Ed book.

Disagreed.

I understand completely when people complain about this book. The good stuff (we barely had any) got nerfed. The bad stuff (70% of the codex) got slight buffs.
But the buffs were so minor that the nerfs seem to be outweighing them.

But if you even dare to claim that the 5th edition codex was better, (You know, the one claimed to be the worst codex of it's time, the one with overpriced assault options and ridiculously expensive and ineffective HQ's), are either trolling or unable to see.
Even the point reductions alone have made the army better.

Sure, challenge my army with your 5th edition one. You can have all the Razorback Spams you like, I can easily afford a Tactical Squad with Razorback for the same price. (ASM + Razorback + LasPlas Turret = 155. 5x Tacticals + Razorback + LasPlas Turret = 155)

The difference: I now have boltguns, ability to have Heavy Flamer and guaranteed FC (and +1 I on charge). You have OS. *slow clap*

If you're going for Jumper army (first of all, this was never truly effective in 6th/7th), it's a little bit on your favour. I have to pay 110 points for Troops, but I also save points compared to you when we both take Assault Squads (even more as Vet Sergeants are no more obligatory).

AV13 wall is not as doable anymore, I'll grant you that.
The lack of FnP makes the single biggest difference.

But some areas that are hardly even discussed here:

In the last codex, Librarian was pretty much the only valid HQ choice besides Mephiston. The Librarians are cheaper and have a new psychic tree (Mephiston + Sanguine Sword + Quickening = ).
Gallian Staff is pretty cheap for the buff it gives.
And besides this, Captains are now worth taking. The choice of taking Artificer armor is now here (as well as Relic Blade). And even the new Relic is helping a lot. Do you either take a Power Sword, or pay five points more for the same weapon with AP2?

Assault Terminators now have a chance to buy Company Standard for a cost of a single Melta bomb. Worth it.

Fragiosos were one of the best units in the entire codex. I, for one, am very happy that Frag Cannon and HF combo is now actually five points cheaper.

Assault Squads may now take two special weapons regardless of the squad size. Min squads of ASM with Meltagun and dual Inferno pistols was common plan in the last codex. Now you may have the same set with another Meltagun and it only costs 5 points more.
And since it's a suicide unit, you don't necessarily want to have a Vet Sergeant so the squad actually comes five points cheaper than it used to, and it has an extra gun.

These are just some minor points to prove that the new codex has a lot to offer if you bother to look beyond the title.

Have an exalt.
I understand that some people are upset because of the ASM/DC/Priest changes.
But claiming the Codex is worse.. really? When the average HQ is probably around 20-25% cheaper?

I'm making a 1500-list and I have:
Mephiston
Dante
10 SG
8 DC
10 Tactical Marines
5 Scouts
And I STILL have enough points to throw in a squad.. That's unbelievable for me, I've never had this with my Blood Angels.

There is a certain quality to quantity.

I feel one reason so many BA players are being put off about the new codex is the die hard BA players started ououpraising this codex and putting it next to top tier dex like tau, eldar, sm, and necrons. They wanted it to be on par with sm to make up for the last codex. It angered a lot of realistic players and even players of other armies because the simple fact is while good, it's middle tier at best.

Reading the thread as an outsider it seems more people are upset about the fact their army isn't valid anymore.

Akiasura wrote:
Reading the thread as an outsider it seems more people are upset about the fact their army isn't valid anymore.

Nailed it in one. I've never been a player who's been concerned with having an army from the most powerful 'dex. Playing Thousand Sons, Sisters of Battle, and WD 'dex Blood Angels should be proof of that!

But I no longer have a legal BA army, and I'm not the least bit interested in giving GW the money I'd need to make it legit. Nor, to be honest, am I interested in putting in the time converting/painting the models I'd need even if I were.

I started my BA army with the WD 'dex because an all jump pack SM army was unique. I didn't want tacticals, I had other armies for that sort of thing. The assault marines in troops was what got me interested in building the army. It didn't win a lot of games, but it was unique.

So, yeah... That's that and with the new 'dex, I'm done with them...

Valete,

JohnS

I feel like there was less complaining about the GK codex, and it invalidated more builds than this one did...

Since I have had the codex I been building a few different lists. Funny thing is i have had scouts from the last codex gathering dust and Tac squads as so this change from assault to tacs has effected me 0. I just needed to go though my bits and find the new weapons that we are now allowed paint them throw on a magnet and boom like it never changed. While there are a few builds I have came up with that is pretty nice most are almost the same as I had before. Loss of assaults in troops i think is a good thing it allows them to be used exactly like all the fluff is with Jump Pack not rolling in razorbacks. Only a few units I ever used DC, Sang Guard, and Honor Guard actually had the jump packs glued on.

 troa wrote:
I feel like there was less complaining about the GK codex, and it invalidated more builds than this one did...

I think the problem is that this Codex invalidated the ONE halfways functional build from the previous Codex. If they had something similar to the Captain on bike makes Bike Squads Troops, but had it be Captain with Jump Pack makes Assault Squads with Jump Packs Troops it might have been better. Or if they had given Tactical Squads the ability to trade their Bolter for a Chainsword, thus basically leaving Assault Squads as Troops. But now people have to spend some money on stuff they don't really want to to make their armies valid again.

AlexRae wrote:
The book is worse than before because you have to spend around 200+ points on stuff you dont want to take in Troops tax to take the things you do want from Elites.

People posting about how their army from 6th is now 150pts cheaper in 7th are overlooking the fact it has 0 Objective Secured and probably isnt even close a legal 'bound' list due to FoC slot movements.

the fail is strong in this one


*** as for army invalidation if having to go out and buy one box of 10 tactical marines, after they just released a new BA tactical marines box is making or breaking the game for you, thats just sad. DO you really not have 10 tac marines, and did you come into this hobby with the express caveat that you could start a marine army and never buy even 10 of their most iconic troops? ***


or you could just enjoy your all elites formation and play with whatever you want in unbound even...

descent of angels and everything.




serious, every codex same old complaints when each codex since and including orks has been very high quality with good balance between and within all of them, as well as lots of fluffy lists you can make.

Whoa... that is a pretty awesome formation! Very little vehicles on the board as a result and zero AA ability, but the fun you can have with 2 HQs and 16 Elites. Sucks that you can't take a Command Squad or any Death Company though. I would love to have this type of Detachment for my Crimson Fists. A big ol' blob of scoring, OS Sternguards would be so much fun. Also, no Sanguinary Guard makes me a sad panda.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 troa wrote:
I feel like there was less complaining about the GK codex, and it invalidated more builds than this one did...

I think the problem is that this Codex invalidated the ONE halfways functional build from the previous Codex. If they had something similar to the Captain on bike makes Bike Squads Troops, but had it be Captain with Jump Pack makes Assault Squads with Jump Packs Troops it might have been better. Or if they had given Tactical Squads the ability to trade their Bolter for a Chainsword, thus basically leaving Assault Squads as Troops. But now people have to spend some money on stuff they don't really want to to make their armies valid again.

If I could exalt this 2 million times I would. Pure thruth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cygnnus wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Reading the thread as an outsider it seems more people are upset about the fact their army isn't valid anymore.

Nailed it in one. I've never been a player who's been concerned with having an army from the most powerful 'dex. Playing Thousand Sons, Sisters of Battle, and WD 'dex Blood Angels should be proof of that!

But I no longer have a legal BA army, and I'm not the least bit interested in giving GW the money I'd need to make it legit. Nor, to be honest, am I interested in putting in the time converting/painting the models I'd need even if I were.

I started my BA army with the WD 'dex because an all jump pack SM army was unique. I didn't want tacticals, I had other armies for that sort of thing. The assault marines in troops was what got me interested in building the army. It didn't win a lot of games, but it was unique.

So, yeah... That's that and with the new 'dex, I'm done with them...

Valete,

JohnS

My sentiments exactly. If I could exalt this 4 million times I would.

*** as for army invalidation if having to go out and buy one box of 10 tactical marines, after they just released a new BA tactical marines box is making or breaking the game for you, thats just sad. DO you really not have 10 tac marines, and did you come into this hobby with the express caveat that you could start a marine army and never buy even 10 of their most iconic troops? ***

Asked the 3 BA players last weekend. Not one of them had a tacticals or scouts. No one bought them, because they sucked. Suck units are not iconic.

or you could just enjoy your all elites formation and play with whatever you want in unbound even...

only unbound is even less accepted, then FW and formations are offten limited to either taking them or ally. And while am not a BA player am almost sure that the codex didn't have a formation that let assault marines take razorback, but I could be wrong.

tac marines and scouts, may not have been auto takes like ASMs were,

and yes, if you specifically built your entire army around one, and only one, build that relied on FOC swaps, you have to buy one box of tac marines or scouts to bring your army into a new edition.

if buying ONE box of tacticals or scouts means the world is ending for your army, thats a pretty low bar to set for it, esp after BA just got their own awesome tactical plastic set, and you can make your all ASM army, into an all ASM army, with two tac/scout squads. and make all your guys I 5 on the charge to boot, with better/cheaper weapon options too now.

not only that, but assault marines come with normal back packs, swap em out, for 10 dudes, swap the pistol for a bolter or glue a bolter on the model somewhere, and bam, 10 free tac marines.


they do not suck for the pts, BA tac marines have great weapons options, +1 s and + 1 I on charge is significant as well,

its 50$ to get two troops units, its not the end of the world like is being touted, nor is it an invalidation of anyones entire army to have to take a couple min troops choices just like everyone else.

tac marines are iconic, they dont suck, thats just being bitter at this point. BA tacticals, are even better then regular ones now with all the added weapon options, and being I5 if you want them to be.

may as well moan and groan about how you have to take two vet squads as guard to get all the goodies, or have to take a SS or term squad as GK, or some grots/boyz in orks, or complain that shootas are +1 pt now.

all major tournies allow formations, not sure where you get the only allies are allowed from. you can take any two formations, so a BA specific + something else ally or a cad ect is what all the major tournaments allow now.



do you really want to encourage armies that are literally, take one unit spam it till out of pts and done?

Having played BA since their first codex I'm still struggling with this idea that, "razorback spam" somehow defined the Blood Angels and therefore now we're 'nerfed'.

We can still take assault marines (with or without jumppacks, even with razorbacks if you pay), they've been FA before and in this edition that matters less than in any previous.

Further if your group, club, or local players are too uptight to accept Unbound, Forgeworld, LoW, etc, that's hardly a failing of the codex - Unbound is a core mechanic of the game and despite the internet it's not the doom and gloom people thought it might be.

 easysauce wrote:
tac marines and scouts, may not have been auto takes like ASMs were,

and yes, if you specifically built your entire army around one, and only one, build that relied on FOC swaps, you have to buy one box of tac marines or scouts to bring your army into a new edition.

if buying ONE box of tacticals or scouts means the world is ending for your army, thats a pretty low bar to set for it, esp after BA just got their own awesome tactical plastic set, and you can make your all ASM army, into an all ASM army, with two tac/scout squads. and make all your guys I 5 on the charge to boot, with better/cheaper weapon options too now.

not only that, but assault marines come with normal back packs, swap em out, for 10 dudes, swap the pistol for a bolter or glue a bolter on the model somewhere, and bam, 10 free tac marines.


they do not suck for the pts, BA tac marines have great weapons options, +1 s and + 1 I on charge is significant as well,

its 50$ to get two troops units, its not the end of the world like is being touted, nor is it an invalidation of anyones entire army to have to take a couple min troops choices just like everyone else.

tac marines are iconic, they dont suck, thats just being bitter at this point. BA tacticals, are even better then regular ones now with all the added weapon options, and being I5 if you want them to be.

may as well moan and groan about how you have to take two vet squads as guard to get all the goodies, or have to take a SS or term squad as GK, or some grots/boyz in orks, or complain that shootas are +1 pt now.

all major tournies allow formations, not sure where you get the only allies are allowed from. you can take any two formations, so a BA specific + something else ally or a cad ect is what all the major tournaments allow now.



do you really want to encourage armies that are literally, take one unit spam it till out of pts and done?

Tacticals are pretty bad, and, for the points, are easily one of the worst troop choices in the game.

There is a reason that people playing SM tend to take bikes instead, or 2 min sized scouts with snipers to go MC hunting. There is a reason that Chaos players take elites as troops, or two cheap cultist squads to sit in cover and grab objectives that come up. Even SW lists, old ones anyway, tended to be a small squad in a razorback or pod with as much plasma as you can carry, and those were the best tacticals in the game. Adding flamers and some combat options on the charge is nice, more options always do, but it doesn't fix tacticals. They just need to be cheaper, or do more damage with guns, or be tougher. Something. More CC in a shooty game will not fix a busted unit. They are iconic though.

You can make your army legal with $50 box of troops (who do look nice) and a $50 dollar codex if you so choose. For someone who bought entire armies in 3rd edition for 300 dollars total, that seems...excessive. Not that I play BA, a lot of people at my local club do, but I can see why they aren't thrilled about being forced to buy things just to play outside of new rules. If tacticals were good it wouldn't be so bad.

There was some grumbling from orks about the shootas going up in a point as well, to be fair. But orks have pretty good (not great, but good) troops so it wasn't a deal breaker. People could at least find a reason to take sluggas now.

obviously GW has heard your complaining about needing all ASM armies then.


will it stop the complaints? likely not

if you honestly think tacticals, with their weapons loadouts/drop pods suck, thats your mistake to make i guess, and its not an objective viewpoint. Plenty of people enjoy success with pod lists around here, now that they can jam in more flamers/melta into those pods, it only got better for that play style.




and just for those that dont know