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 Scrabb wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.

Citation?

Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.

Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.


Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.

Reproduced in "Only War". Orky weapons are standard reliability in the hands of an Ork. In anyone else's hands, they gain the "Unreliable" trait.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.

Adeptus Mechanicus prayers are not out of religious ignorance. It's so the lasgun won't fail in the middle of the next battle out of spite.

But the entire reason the machine spirit is there is out of religious dogma and a lack of understanding / refusal to understand.

Also, a lot of the prayers for the weapons and such are just directions in "religious" format, in order to keep the knowledge alive through the long dark.

OI. GREEN IZ BETTA YA GITZ.

In all seriousness I believe the Necrons would win. The context or everyone uniting takes some leaps of logic and fluff so there are some leaps of interpretation there but here's my reasoning:

i. To get anywhere worth holding you need to move through space - which the Necrons absolutely, unequivocally, one hundred percent dominate. This has been pretty standard in fluff fare and I don't think there's anything that contests it. From basic fliers making it past Mars' defenses to IA: 13, Necrons own space.

ii. The way GW's version of "Gauss" works, spores simply wouldn't work. When everything is stripped to its constituent atoms, there's nothing to reproduce. -And, if the Imperium can purge an Ork infestation using just promethium weapons, sweeping the landscape with Gauss fire would work equally well, if not better.

iii. At least in my interpretation, and I'm willing to lose this since it's my own head cannon, it takes a long of fire power for Necrons to be unable to repair. Basic kinetic damage from bullets or explosives wouldn't be enough - think the T-1000 from Terminator. So unless a Necron is hit by a Gargant-level weapon or a Zzap gun or etc., Necrons will be able to survive the vast, vast majority of damage Orks do to their forces.

iv. Following up on that idea - people say Necrons can't be replaced by at least their basic warriors can. They say they have nothing left of the original Necrontyr, so theoretically you can just build more mindless, programmed bodies.


The biggest "What if" I have going on here are the C'tan and Gork'Mork.
If literally every Ork ever was somehow united against the Necrons completely and entirely - to explain the lack of infighting - you can imagine the kind of psychic power brought to bear.
Likewise, the C'tan. They could probably tear swathes of Orks apart with ease if they were fully reformed, but C'tan's would essentially be the Necron's version of MAD. Once they're put back together, I don't think they're going to fall for the ol' Benedict Arnold again.

Necrons would take heavy losses I'm sure. Gargants. Psychic power. Bombarding planets with Roks and asteroids and etc. (Since Orks don't care to hold ground, just 'TA FIGHT YA FETHING GITS) there is potential for some heavy losses. But Necrons would inevitably win.

And could we please stop with all the "Necrons are Mary Sue" nonsense? You get the same for every reason.
TYRANIDS UNSTOPPABLE. ORKS UNSTOPPABLE. CHAOS IS NOW AND FOREVER. IMPERIUM UNSTOPPABLE. TAU - ... Well, uh, ELDAR AND DARK ELDAR- .. um. Shoot. Wait. Ynnead maybe? I dunno'. Well, most of the races are unstoppable juggernauts with only one small hitch holding them back, anyway.

morganfreeman wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.

Adeptus Mechanicus prayers are not out of religious ignorance. It's so the lasgun won't fail in the middle of the next battle out of spite.

But the entire reason the machine spirit is there is out of religious dogma and a lack of understanding / refusal to understand.

Also, a lot of the prayers for the weapons and such are just directions in "religious" format, in order to keep the knowledge alive through the long dark.

So, which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Either AdMech dogma is a load of superstitious doggerel and machines fail because of a lack of understanding, or AdMech dogma is a set of instructions for proper maintenance and care of machinery.

The truth is that the belief in the "machine spirit's anger" is a direct result of not following the rituals properly, which is the same thing as not maintaining the device properly. No rituals = poor maintenance = machines fail.

Orks are implied to be the unstoppable warmachine of the ancient ones. The only reason keeping them from taking control over the galaxy is that they lost their coherency when the ancients went away. The pre metal necron empire had great problems defeating the ancients when they were in in their "peace mode".

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.

Adeptus Mechanicus prayers are not out of religious ignorance. It's so the lasgun won't fail in the middle of the next battle out of spite.

But the entire reason the machine spirit is there is out of religious dogma and a lack of understanding / refusal to understand.

Also, a lot of the prayers for the weapons and such are just directions in "religious" format, in order to keep the knowledge alive through the long dark.

Not necessarily. Mankind once made more use of AI than the Tau do, it was part of just about everything. The "Machine Spirit" may be remnants of AI code that is integrated at the manufacturing level in every device more complex than a can-opener in the Imperium. Following the war with the Men of Iron and then the Horus Heresy, there's so much rogue code floating around in every system everywhere that it's almost inevitable that some of that code will end up in anything worth building.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Necrons, with extreme ease.

The Necrons will nuke them from space. The Orks have numbers but no way to bring them all to bear. If it's true that the Necrons outnumber humanity (a possibility suggested by their codex), then the Orks could not win even if everything was fought on their terms.

Even in this case such a massive amount of orks would easily overwhelm even the most disciplined and powerful host of warships the necrons could muster through sheer numbers. Necrons would certainly make them work for it but as it has been said there is only a finite number of them. Also consider the warp mess such a huge conglomeration of orks would create. Hell Gork and Mork themselves might burst from the warp.

To go to the ground Orks still "win" The fact is that the battlefield would become such a mess with the dead and destroyed that Necron style of ranged fighting would become next to impossible. I would predict a near endless grind between the two factions that would ultimately end in Ork victory as the finite number of Necrons slowly decreased over time while the endless ork tides would continue to be reinforced in spite of their losses.

You do realize that the Necrons could slaughter an entire WAAAGH!!! without the Orks even realizing they were dying, right? The Necrons can destroy stars from lightyears away, for Emperor's sake. The Necron ships are better constructed (better armor, they die a helluva lot slower than anything that Orks, or even the IoM could boast (aside from some archeaotech)), with better weapons (10x the range, 10x the stopping power, 10x the Dakka), better commanders (significantly more intelligent, with thousands of years of experience), no need for supply lines, and access to literal Gods if the need should arise (Gork and Mork balance this part out, but the C'tan would effectively neutralize the advantage of the Ork Gods).

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Any one who says necrons obviously loves their... Well... They don't have the d... Their equivilant. Orks would, without trying, win. Because they can't lose. You can't ever trueky kill them you CAN truly kill necrons. Orks keep coming back. Everyone one that does spawns 5 more. Necrons lose EVERY time.

Incorrect, a dead necron comes back even if he doesn't reanimate on the field, they reawaken in the tomb world, just dumber. And necrons are smart enough to counter spores with Gauss weaponry, which dismantles molecules, not to mention their advanced weaponry and vast numbers, it's a landslide for the necrons

Don't forget that ork tech advances to meet a threat too, we can only imagine the kind of tech locked in their genetics that would arise if the entire race United, they could potentially match the crons, that is exactly what they were created for after all.

Also in bfg orks hold out quite well against crons (in all the updated rules rules) crons are weak to being boarded, orks excel at it.

 Formosa wrote:
Also in bfg orks hold out quite well against crons (in all the updated rules rules) crons are weak to being boarded, orks excel at it.

Wait, we're going with rules? That's amazing, then Necrons win easily. No way Orks can beat Decurion.

If the Necrons could defeat the Orks outright, they would have done so millions of years ago at the height of their power.

The Necrons, the Eldar and now the Imperium have all failed to wipe out the Ork threat (or even significantly set it back), despite all of them claiming to be the "masters of the galaxy".

The Orks might never defeat the Necrons in full (they don't have the attention span for it) but the Necrons certainly won't be putting the final nail in the Ork coffin either (they aren't thorough enough, which is ironic for machines...).

The Necrons did defeat them, they just didn't exterminate them.
The Orks were irrelevant by the end of the war, it was the Eldar the Necrons retreated from.

Another point to consider. Because all Necron decisionmaking is centralized in the hands of a very limited number of still-sentient leaders or relegated to (relatively sophisticated) command protocols, Necron decisionmaking is rather stilted.

With only a limited amount of creative input from beings who are very set in their quirks and patterns, and in many cases who are indeed certifiably insane, Necrons have some difficulty responding to the spontaneous, anarchic decisions Orks make.

By way of evidence, one of their best tacticians has specific canon problems adapting to Orks, problems he does not experience when facing any other species.

In addition, because Necron decisionmaking is so concentrated in so few hands, if you cut off the head the entire body reverts to those sophisticated (but predictable) command protocols. It's kind of like the 'spider and the starfish' analogy used for organizational analysis, or the old adage about 'cutting off the head of the snake'.

Please don't try to convince anyone that Necron leaders are NEVER truly destroyed. We know from canon that entire dynasties have been wiped out. They can be killed, it's just harder because you have to locate and demolish their reanimation chambers.

Interestingly, Orks have precisely the same issue with a different twist. Kill the Warboss and the Waaagh devolves into anarchy until a new leader claws his way to the top. Unlike Necrons, Orks will waste vast resource in internicene fighting until a new Warboss asserts himself. The difference is that Orks can and will replace a fallen leader, while Necrons have a very limited pool of subordinates that can step up; that limited pool is absolutely fixed and will never increase, while the Ork pool is potentially unlimited.

This doesn't settle the issue between Ork and Necron fanboys that dominates this thread, it's just an interesting compare and contrast point.

My two cents again.

Animus wrote:
The Necrons did defeat them, they just didn't exterminate them.
The Orks were irrelevant by the end of the war, it was the Eldar the Necrons retreated from.

Roflcopter XD You made that up. The fluff doesn't detail any meeting between Necrons and Krorks. Old Ones didn't create Krorks to combat Necrons that was the Eldar and some other races the Krork race was created to combat the Warp entities. Necrons didn't retreat from Eldar they retreated from a galaxy being overrun by an Enslaver Plague. It wasn't necessary to retreat because Orks and Eldar and some other races that existed during the Plague still survive to this day and the Enslaver Plague has ended many many many eras ago. I do find this retreat rather interesting if they have the ability to throw stars at their problems or even today why aren't they throwing stars at the Imperium. I'm betting the star tossing is much more conditional then fans want others to believe. Conditions like the machine is broken, the machine is lost, no one knows how to use the machine, the machine hasn't been built yet, only C'tan can do it etc...whatever the reason the start tossing hasn't been put to use despite millions of yrs fill with good reasons to do it. The Orks were relevent back then and are still relevent today. Their race with their united belief has a manifestation in the Warp in the form of Gork and Mork. Both are insanely powerful due to this united belief and shrug off the attacks of other Chaos Gods with a raucus laugh and happily continue going about their business of smashing and wrecking Warp entities since that what the race was designed for. As long as there is the Warp and Warp entities the Orks are relevent to the universe. But this relevence seems to be changing. Current date is the first time fluff details Gork and Mork having any interest in Real Space and they are currently puppeteering Ghazzy to raise the galactic Waaaagh! energy so they can rip out of the Warp into real space. My speculation here is that this is due to the incoming Tyranids. The Orks and their manifested belief still seem to be programmed to save the galaxy albeit saving the galaxy isn't the same as saving the current races living in it.

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
........And necrons are smart enough to counter spores with Gauss weaponry, which dismantles molecules, not to mention their advanced weaponry and vast numbers, it's a landslide for the necrons

Brilliant strategy commander. Use most of your anti-personnel weapons to fire upon the microscopic spores in the air and on the ground!



In all seriousness though, Gauss, brilliant as it is against orks, is just a dampener on the ork's reproductive methods. They're worse than rabbits. Constantly culling themselves and yet constantly expanding, such that they are unquestionably the largest local species in this galaxy. (nids are a wild card)

Orks - here is the main reason. The very old fluff depicts Gork and Mork, as well, not quite on the level of a Chaos god but seemingly above the emperor - at least in that they have more freedom of action. Anyways, a large Waaagh has a substantial affect on Gork and Mork, who in turn directly influence the material universe. Uniting the entire galaxy's population of Orks would create such an impossibly powerful psychic force, I just don't see how anything could stand up to it. If a few thousand Orks collectively believing in a rokkit exploding causes a rokkit to gland a Land Raider, just imagine what an infinite number of Orks collectively believing in their invincibility and the power of Gork and Mork would lead to.

That myth about belief has been debunked, a rock it won't slag a land raider and thinking they can't die doesn't grant them invincibility

The Ork gestalt field, whilst somewhat accurate, doesn't mean that Orks can believe in their invincibility and live.
They need to really, truly believe it with every fibre of their being. The same could be said of the world orbiting the sun (if you choose to believe that). You believe it because some scientist said so and wrote some formulas that could fit his/her theory. It makes sense, but may not be necessarily true. To an Ork, this could be like when building a gun or choppa. If he puts a chainsword teeth belt and a motor on his choppa, or puts a longer barrel or laser pointer on his shoota, he has seen that it is effective. Whilst it might not be the actual teeth of the chainsword or the longer barrel that directly makes the weapon better, this makes sense to the Ork, and should work. However, if an Ork sees other Orks doing the same around him die, he won't believe himself immortal as he has no reason to think himself to be. If the aforementioned rock had explosives strapped to it or had been coated in the oil of other tanks, THEN it might do something. But a random rock? Even an ork wouldn't think it could do anything.

 ProwlerPC wrote:

Animus wrote:
The Necrons did defeat them, they just didn't exterminate them.
The Orks were irrelevant by the end of the war, it was the Eldar the Necrons retreated from.

Roflcopter XD You made that up. The fluff doesn't detail any meeting between Necrons and Krorks. Old Ones didn't create Krorks to combat Necrons that was the Eldar and some other races the Krork race was created to combat the Warp entities. Necrons didn't retreat from Eldar they retreated from a galaxy being overrun by an Enslaver Plague. It wasn't necessary to retreat because Orks and Eldar and some other races that existed during the Plague still survive to this day and the Enslaver Plague has ended many many many eras ago. I do find this retreat rather interesting if they have the ability to throw stars at their problems or even today why aren't they throwing stars at the Imperium. I'm betting the star tossing is much more conditional then fans want others to believe. Conditions like the machine is broken, the machine is lost, no one knows how to use the machine, the machine hasn't been built yet, only C'tan can do it etc...whatever the reason the start tossing hasn't been put to use despite millions of yrs fill with good reasons to do it. The Orks were relevent back then and are still relevent today. Their race with their united belief has a manifestation in the Warp in the form of Gork and Mork. Both are insanely powerful due to this united belief and shrug off the attacks of other Chaos Gods with a raucus laugh and happily continue going about their business of smashing and wrecking Warp entities since that what the race was designed for. As long as there is the Warp and Warp entities the Orks are relevent to the universe. But this relevence seems to be changing. Current date is the first time fluff details Gork and Mork having any interest in Real Space and they are currently puppeteering Ghazzy to raise the galactic Waaaagh! energy so they can rip out of the Warp into real space. My speculation here is that this is due to the incoming Tyranids. The Orks and their manifested belief still seem to be programmed to save the galaxy albeit saving the galaxy isn't the same as saving the current races living in it.

I suggest you update your fluff.
The Necrons did retreat from the Eldar.

Yet even with the defeat of the Old Ones and C'tan alike, the Silent King saw that the time of the Necrons was over - for the moment, at least.
The mantle of galactic dominion would soon pass to the Eldar, a race who had fought alongside the Old Ones throughout the War in Heaven and had thus come to hate the Necrons and all their works.
The Eldar had survived where the Old Ones had not and the Necrons, weakened during the overthrow of the C'tan, could not stand against them.

The Orks were not considered an issue, so don't tout their prowess too much.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ork gestalt field, whilst somewhat accurate, doesn't mean that Orks can believe in their invincibility and live.
They need to really, truly believe it with every fibre of their being. The same could be said of the world orbiting the sun (if you choose to believe that). You believe it because some scientist said so and wrote some formulas that could fit his/her theory. It makes sense, but may not be necessarily true. To an Ork, this could be like when building a gun or choppa. If he puts a chainsword teeth belt and a motor on his choppa, or puts a longer barrel or laser pointer on his shoota, he has seen that it is effective. Whilst it might not be the actual teeth of the chainsword or the longer barrel that directly makes the weapon better, this makes sense to the Ork, and should work. However, if an Ork sees other Orks doing the same around him die, he won't believe himself immortal as he has no reason to think himself to be. If the aforementioned rock had explosives strapped to it or had been coated in the oil of other tanks, THEN it might do something. But a random rock? Even an ork wouldn't think it could do anything.[/quote

You missed the point - or more likely I didn't communicate it very well. I am not just talking about their gestalt field. I am talking about Gork and Mork. Orks aren't effective just because they each believe they will be successful, their latent psyker ability and aggression feeds Gork and Mork just as human emotions feed the chaos gods. There is the story in fluff about Gork and Mork being invigorated enough to draw all the Orks in a system together to begin building huge numbers of Gargants, etc. No Orks fought each other while this was going on - as they are known to do - and they were able to construct exceedingly powerful weapons of war in far greater numbers than Orks can normally muster. Point being, if the total population of the Orks in the galaxy are united under a single Waaaagh, it would be an unimaginable boost to Gork and Mork making them capable of, well, no one knows...but you can be guaranteed that it would make them far more effective than they currently are, since Gork and Mork have proven able to directly influence the material universe. So, the Orks would be able to make them capable of building more complex weapons of war, make them fearless and completely resolute in the face of casualties, their weaponry would be massively improved, telyporters vastly more effective, the enemy would be under the ill effects of the transcendent Gork and Mork's power, etc.

 Grumblewartz wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ork gestalt field, whilst somewhat accurate, doesn't mean that Orks can believe in their invincibility and live.
They need to really, truly believe it with every fibre of their being. The same could be said of the world orbiting the sun (if you choose to believe that). You believe it because some scientist said so and wrote some formulas that could fit his/her theory. It makes sense, but may not be necessarily true. To an Ork, this could be like when building a gun or choppa. If he puts a chainsword teeth belt and a motor on his choppa, or puts a longer barrel or laser pointer on his shoota, he has seen that it is effective. Whilst it might not be the actual teeth of the chainsword or the longer barrel that directly makes the weapon better, this makes sense to the Ork, and should work. However, if an Ork sees other Orks doing the same around him die, he won't believe himself immortal as he has no reason to think himself to be. If the aforementioned rock had explosives strapped to it or had been coated in the oil of other tanks, THEN it might do something. But a random rock? Even an ork wouldn't think it could do anything.

You missed the point - or more likely I didn't communicate it very well. I am not just talking about their gestalt field. I am talking about Gork and Mork. Orks aren't effective just because they each believe they will be successful, their latent psyker ability and aggression feeds Gork and Mork just as human emotions feed the chaos gods. There is the story in fluff about Gork and Mork being invigorated enough to draw all the Orks in a system together to begin building huge numbers of Gargants, etc. No Orks fought each other while this was going on - as they are known to do - and they were able to construct exceedingly powerful weapons of war in far greater numbers than Orks can normally muster. Point being, if the total population of the Orks in the galaxy are united under a single Waaaagh, it would be an unimaginable boost to Gork and Mork making them capable of, well, no one knows...but you can be guaranteed that it would make them far more effective than they currently are, since Gork and Mork have proven able to directly influence the material universe. So, the Orks would be able to make them capable of building more complex weapons of war, make them fearless and completely resolute in the face of casualties, their weaponry would be massively improved, telyporters vastly more effective, the enemy would be under the ill effects of the transcendent Gork and Mork's power, etc.

Correct... IF Orks were to stand as one.
No Ork force, not Ghazghskull's, not the Beast's, no Ork force in recorded history of 40k has ever stood as one. It states in the Orks codex that they fight amongst themselves so often that this will never occur.
Think about it. If all enemies were removed bar Orks and the Necrons, and most people seem to believe that Orks are far more numerous than the necrons, simple probability would reinforce the idea that Orks would encounter Ork forces instead of Necrons more often. These orks would be spoiling for a good scrap so, deprived of a fight against pansie 'umies or dem spiky lads, they'd infight again. Necrons don't have this problem. Necrons rarely infight, and on the occasions where a Dynasty attempts to defeat another, there are rarely any lasting casualties save for the losing Dynasty's leadership cadre.

Besides, if we include Gods on the Ork side (which have yet to appear in regular wars, despite MORE fighting occurring now than in this hypothetical situation), can we not consider the Null Fields Necrons have to use, such as the ones holding the Eye of Terror, a huge tear in the very fabric of space, in a stable state?

In regards to your first point, I agree that they wouldn't go without fighting...but that wasn't the hypothetical question posed by the OP.

Also, to your 2nd point, I think that would play a major factor in any conflict of this magnitude. It wouldn't stop Gork and Mork from "motivating" Orks - i.e. making them fearless, stimulating their Orky creativity, etc. I don't know, these hypothetical situations always breakdown because 40k fluff is built around the premise that any one of the great factions (Mankind, Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos) would theoretically conquer the galaxy if unfettered. That is what makes it so grimdark. In any case, I think all these hypothetical situations end in a galactic Apocalypse anyways regardless, since all of the great factions are fully capable of destroying the galaxy in their own way.

Oops, looks like that's what you get when you forget the OP!
In that case, point 1 conceded!

I dunno, in the case of Necrons, who have null technology, Warp-based enemies tend to be a bit weaker without their gods.

Orks win here.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Orks win here.

By what means?

Try reading the thread and poll, no need to ask one person to repeat everything mentioned in a 11 page thread. His choice of words are correct. The Orks have one here. It's not necessarily over. Post something more convincing in favour of the Necrons and fish for more votes.

I doubt it. I strongly suspect more than a few votes are placed due to the 'Orks win because Orks waAaAgh' factor rather than reason or logic.

The poll does little more than gauge opinions.

I played Orks when I was a kid, I may have voted for them like above back then. Now, with a more nuanced view of the setting, I really can't do so.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I played Orks when I was a kid, I may have voted for them like above back then. Now, with a more nuanced view of the setting, I really can't do so.

By all means, explain how your "nuanced" view causes you to reach your conclusions. I know you have something meaningful to say here and you aren't just making a "I'm a smarter and more mature gamer than you ohohoho!" post. So go ahead. Fix your post and turn it into something that makes sense. We don't care about how you just turned fourteen and are trying on your big boy pants for the first time. Go ahead and explain how playing with Ork toy soldiers in a little kids' game makes you less mature than a person who plays with elf toy soldiers or bug toy soldiers or hypermasculine steroid freak toy soldiers.

Haruspex wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

I played Orks when I was a kid, I may have voted for them like above back then. Now, with a more nuanced view of the setting, I really can't do so.

By all means, explain how your "nuanced" view causes you to reach your conclusions. I know you have something meaningful to say here and you aren't just making a "I'm a smarter and more mature gamer than you ohohoho!" post. So go ahead. Fix your post and turn it into something that makes sense. We don't care about how you just turned fourteen and are trying on your big boy pants for the first time. Go ahead and explain how playing with Ork toy soldiers in a little kids' game makes you less mature than a person who plays with elf toy soldiers or bug toy soldiers or hypermasculine steroid freak toy soldiers.

Would having read more of the fluff in the span of time between getting into the hobby and now count as getting a nuanced view? Because that's how I read it. Or you can go with the faction I picked at the beginning was the best faction, now that I've played the game and have become accustomed to it, I have expanded my view to encapsulate other fluff.

Or we could just dive into telling people they're 14 and which factions they pick makes them more or less mature based upon ...... guesswork?

My view now is more nuanced now chiefly because I know far more of the game's lore, yes.