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 r_squared wrote:
Guys, this was never going to be an intelligent debate. Consider the subject matter. Two completely imaginary races, with conflicting and nonsensical fluff which has been revised and ret-conned to absurdity. Even pretending that it would be possible to have a rational, intelligent debate is in itself absurd.

Still, it was good fun though.

There has been plenty of intelligent discussion on the fluff on this forum before. Compared to most this thread has been pretty bad.

I blame the Necron fluff. But then, I guess I'm just venting. I actually read the whole thread, and immediately regretted it

Yep, Necron fluff is patently ridiculous, unlike Orky fluff which is quite sensible really.
























Orks Win.

Ork fluff is a lot worse.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ork fluff is a lot worse.

Arguable. Ork fluff is pretty consistent with itself and the setting.

Necrons get pretty majorly overhauled every time they get a codex, and have almost all of their stuff explained by "Like magic, but TECHNOLOGY MAGIC!"

As opposed to Orks who have all their stuff explained by "Magic, but they don't know they're doing it."

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ork fluff is a lot worse.

Arguable. ....

Not with Bob, he hates orks 'cause they is not grimdark like wot IG is, which are the best ain't they blud?

What the hell are you even trying to say?

Orks Win.

Whatever helps you sleep at night

It does Bob.
I like to imagine them stomping face, particularly Krieg face, just before I drift of to dozy land.

Hey r_squared, wanna see a video of me solo-killing 1,000 Orks in Space Marine? =)))))))))))))))))))))))))

No but seriously, is this what the argument has devolved into?

'Necrons lose because their fluff is worse'?

'Necrons lose because they recently got a big faction overhaul'?

'Necrons lose because waaagh da orks waaagh'?

NNNNNOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!

But yes, I did that too. It's a proper ace game and it's fantastically satisfying to kick da boyz inna fork.

The fluff is what the thread is all about, shame the fluff is mostly bollox though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
As opposed to Orks who have all their stuff explained by "Magic, but they don't know they're doing it."

To my knowledge this fluff didn't come around until 4th edition.

And I always hated it. The new books make Orks out to be a bunch of psychic idiots that only accomplish anything through brute force, sheer numbers and plain dumb luck.

But they weren't always like that. The old Rogue Trader Ork books (there were three) painted a rather different picture. They were a successful, space faring race that survived through its pragmatism and resilience. Their tech worked because it worked(though not always well). Mekboys were competent enough to build working devices, even if they didn't fully understand them. The knowledge was coded in their DNA, which might not make much sense, but its miles better than "it works because they believe it works."

They weren't just "all fighting, all the time." The had civilizations, culture, religion. They had an insatiable wanderlust, a desire to explore that led them to spread out across the galaxy. These were important aspects of Ork fluff that have been reduced to footnotes. Now they are little more than wild beasts.

I didn't get into the game until around 2008. When I first read Waaargh: Da Orks, I was taken aback by how much more interesting and detailed it was.

Well now I'm rambling, but basically yes, Ork fluff has changed, for the worse IMO. But its still has more going for it than the "we always win" Necrons.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hey r_squared, wanna see a video of me solo-killing 1,000 Orks in Space Marine? =)))))))))))))))))))))))))

No but seriously, is this what the argument has devolved into?

'Necrons lose because their fluff is worse'?

'Necrons lose because they recently got a big faction overhaul'?

'Necrons lose because waaagh da orks waaagh'?

No what I'm saying is that Necrons win because their fluff is worse.

10 pages and noones mentioned a Looted C'tan shard yet?

While Necrons fluff is filled with techno cheese, remember Orks have the slapstick advantage!

The Orks can make the Universe explode, and be excited to do so.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
10 pages and noones mentioned a Looted C'tan shard yet?

While Necrons fluff is filled with techno cheese, remember Orks have the slapstick advantage!

The Orks can make the Universe explode, and be excited to do so.

Yeah and no mention of a looted Golden throne either!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
As opposed to Orks who have all their stuff explained by "Magic, but they don't know they're doing it."

There's a thread floating around on these boards from back -well- before the new Ork codex came out.

In it, it explains a squig.

Basically this squig begins to coo when it sees something unknown. As said thing gets closer this coo becomes painful and very load, and if whatever it is worried about comes too close it goes nuts and begins defecating uncontrollably.

This Orks will often tame these squigs and let them live on their shoulders because they believe that having one improves the accuracy of their weapons, The truth, however, is that the Ork simply aims better and controls their weapon to a greater degree - because they'd rather not have their pet gakking all over their armor.

In essence, Ork "magic" can almost always be explained away by Orks just having.. Well, a poor understanding of things in a literal sense. Necrons are a great deal beyond that.

Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,

Alcibiades wrote:
Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,

The 'orkish psychic field' has been core fluff since at least the third edition codex. Its the whole thing that powers the Waaagh, keeps their guns working reliably and makes red ones go faster.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,

The 'orkish psychic field' has been core fluff since at least the third edition codex. Its the whole thing that powers the Waaagh, keeps their guns working reliably and makes red ones go faster.

It's one of those things which has been over-blown by the player base. I have all three of the last ork codex', and while it -is- always mentioned, a slight air of skepticism is cast over it. Words like "appear" and such, as well as much of it coming from first person accounts of Mechanicus followers who.. Well, don't understand foreign tech.

As I already said, it's quite possibly that the ork "beliefs make it true" thing has a very firm grounding in simple to understand concepts.. Which Orks wholly overlook due to the way they think. Meks instinctively painting bombs with better / larger payloads yellow, drivers who know how better to milk every ounce of power from their vehicle / have a more powerful engine painting their vehicles red, yadda yadda.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Where in the codex does it say that Ork stuff works as if by magic? I don't think it does,

The 'orkish psychic field' has been core fluff since at least the third edition codex. Its the whole thing that powers the Waaagh,

Correct, 100% of Orks have at least a small psychic presence.

keeps their guns working reliably

False to incomplete. Imperial sources on Orks are notoriously unreliable (see Kommandos) and no imperial technician would bat an eye before declaring something he didn't understand 'magic'.

Ork meks make guns and equipment just fine, thank you very much.

and makes red ones go faster.

Yes. Probably. Maybe.....

I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.

Citation?

Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.

Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.


Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.

Well this has been fun. Actually learned about some fluff I didn't know about. Thinking about the next faction v faction match up now.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.

Citation?

Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.

Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.

I'm mostly basing my knowledge off the codex and the GorkaMorka fluff... oh, and the bits that used to be on display at the GWHQ museum before they tore it up to make the Hall of Fame.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.

Citation?

Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.

Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.


Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.

For a current entry, all Ork weapons in FFG's game series are "Unreliable" in the hands of a non-Ork (this is a specific Weapon Rule). They lose this trait in the hands of an Ork. Is this an effect of the gestalt psychic field generated by the Orks? Maybe.

This is important because the RPGs try to take a lot of the stuff mentioned in the wargame in very vague/general ways and provide further details/rules/explanation. The RPG does not explicitly say that it's "Waaagh!power" that makes these weapons less-reliable in the hands of non-Orks than Orks, but it is heavily implied.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I said reliably, not at all. Ork Meks may be genius inventors, but Orks in general suck at maintenance. Ork guns might not work "because they believe in them", but they certainly jam less than they otherwise might.

Citation?

Ork meks make reliable guns that their species can use. I mean, the average ork is perfectly capable of keeping an AKA from jamming and I imagine their standard gun is sturdier than those.

Orks that like guns (lootas, flash gits) are exceptionally good at coaxing every little bit of performance out of their guns.


Methinks you've been buying too much into the "Orks always win! Psychic chickens will appear if you can convince an Ork that they will!" fandom of the Ork faction.

For a current entry, all Ork weapons in FFG's game series are "Unreliable" in the hands of a non-Ork (this is a specific Weapon Rule). They lose this trait in the hands of an Ork. Is this an effect of the gestalt psychic field generated by the Orks? Maybe.

This is important because the RPGs try to take a lot of the stuff mentioned in the wargame in very vague/general ways and provide further details/rules/explanation. The RPG does not explicitly say that it's "Waaagh!power" that makes these weapons less-reliable in the hands of non-Orks than Orks, but it is heavily implied.

If you give an A-typical weapon to anyone who's not used to using that or something similar, it becomes "unreliable". Sure most guns boil down to "Aim, pull the trigger" - but that doesn't mean that many of us could do much beyond that with plenty of weapons. I doubt I'd be able to reload anything other than a fairly basic handgun with any speed or reliability, primarily because I'm not familiar with them.

Apply this to a setting where weapons vary dramatically, and it can make sense well beyond the whole "psychic power!" stuff. I mean most imperial soldiery are used to Lasguns and their equivalents. A gun which has extraordinarily low maintenance and no real mechanism cleaning required. Just pop a power pack in and go to town - handing them a rugged and gigantic solid-shot weapon which is put together in an odd fashion would doubtlessly have problems.

Lasguns require extensive cleaning. The rites and rituals thereof are detailed in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and is covered quite a lot in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. There's all kinds of lenses, contacts, triggers and parts to clean and oil.

Specifically, though, the "Unreliable" weapon trait causes weapons to jam more frequently than those that lack this trait, regardless of the skill of the person using it. An Imperial weapon with the "Unreliable" trait will jam just as frequently for the Guardsman issued it as it would for some street-rat from the underHive. It's just that the weapon is shoddily built or has a fundamental design flaw, regardless of the amount of maintenance put into it.

No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Necrons, with extreme ease.

The Necrons will nuke them from space. The Orks have numbers but no way to bring them all to bear. If it's true that the Necrons outnumber humanity (a possibility suggested by their codex), then the Orks could not win even if everything was fought on their terms.

Even in this case such a massive amount of orks would easily overwhelm even the most disciplined and powerful host of warships the necrons could muster through sheer numbers. Necrons would certainly make them work for it but as it has been said there is only a finite number of them. Also consider the warp mess such a huge conglomeration of orks would create. Hell Gork and Mork themselves might burst from the warp.

To go to the ground Orks still "win" The fact is that the battlefield would become such a mess with the dead and destroyed that Necron style of ranged fighting would become next to impossible. I would predict a near endless grind between the two factions that would ultimately end in Ork victory as the finite number of Necrons slowly decreased over time while the endless ork tides would continue to be reinforced in spite of their losses.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No amount of praying and rituals and whatever human invented superstitious dogma will work on the Ork weapons. Maybe that's what the IoM are doing wrong. They are praying to the stuff and reporting back that they don't work. It's got less to do with Ork ignorance and more to do with religious ignorance perhaps.

Adeptus Mechanicus prayers are not out of religious ignorance. It's so the lasgun won't fail in the middle of the next battle out of spite.