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I am quite liking 2 ML, 2 PC and 1 LC in my Long Fangs. I almost always overcharge the plasma unless they moved and it works a treat. Against tough targets, everything is AP-2 or better and does 2 damage or D6. Against hordes and 2D6+2D3+1 shots which is usually enough to at least make a dent.

 Karhedron wrote:
I am quite liking 2 ML, 2 PC and 1 LC in my Long Fangs. I almost always overcharge the plasma unless they moved and it works a treat. Against tough targets, everything is AP-2 or better and does 2 damage or D6. Against hordes and 2D6+2D3+1 shots which is usually enough to at least make a dent.

Yeah, nothing wrong with this as long as you have enough of the right guns spread around your army, though I'm personally not a big fan of the random shots of the plasma cannon for its price.

 Weazel wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Drop Pod Long Fangs are not worth it anymore, right? I'd be better off just taking Tempestus Scions with Plasma?

IMO no way. 100pts tax for the pod and with 4-5 MM you're just going to hit twice or maybe thrice (on 4+), wound once or twice and cause maybe 4-5 damage on average per wound with the reroll. And they are going to get wiped out the next turn guaranteed. That's just too little work done for 300 pts. MAYBE if you drop 1-2 packs of terminators with them as a screen and as an even bigger threat... but that's not a cheap little detachment any more.

I might suggest dropping 5 cheap HB guys on a remote objective.. they're not threatening enough to warrant priority elimination but you are still going to have to commit some firepower to remove them. And they can still dish out 15 S5 AP-1 shots so not completely useless either.

Again it depends on how many Drop Pods you are dropping and if not going Drop Wolves make sure you have TWC impacting on their front lines. One of the tricks to using Drop Pods is go big, 3+ and have something else for them to worry about. One of the things Drop Pods do is put your opponent on the Defensive and make him react to you.
With Three Drop pods you take the 15 HB Shots and turn them into 45 Heavy Bolter Shots along with 12 Plasma Gun Shots and 12 Storm Bolter Shots not counting what the Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard Battle Leader you bring along, so add 4 more Plasma Gun Shots.

Do you have an example full list of this drop poddiness? I have trouble thinking it packs quite enough punch, but am interested to see it.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.

Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?

jcd386 wrote:
Do you have an example full list of this drop poddiness? I have trouble thinking it packs quite enough punch, but am interested to see it.

Not for 8th yet, still looking into what, but Probably something like:
Wolf Guard x9 Storm Bolters/Power Swords
Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Storm Bolter and Frost Sword.
Drop Pod

Wolf Guard 3x Combi-Plasma and Bolt Pistols
Rune Priest Runic Sword & Combi-Plasma
Drop Pod

Wolf Guard 7x Mix 'Power Weapons', Storm Shields, and Plasma Pistols (No two Alike)
Ragnar with pair of wolves
Drop Pod

Wolf Guard Bikers with Storm Bolters x10
Wolf Priest on a Bike with Storm Bolter

Thunderwolf Calvary with 1 Frost Sword, 1 Thunder Hammer, 6x Storm Shields.
Herald Deathwolf
Canis Wolfborn

or something like that.

Don't forget 8th has the Half Units Must Be Deployed On Board caveat so a full drop pod list isn't even doable.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Don't forget 8th has the Half Units Must Be Deployed On Board caveat so a full drop pod list isn't even doable.

Not always, Some people play Narrative Play.
For Matched play just make sure half your units are not Pods.

My worry with lists that have a lot of stuff dropping in are as follows:

If the enemy knows you are coming, and they do, they should be able to screen their good stuff with their not as good stuff. This does limit the way they deploy, which is good for you, but maybe not good enough. Any good player is going to make sure that you can't get a charge of on a good unit, so when you come in you are too far away to do much. Then you take the brunt of the enemy shooting on basic infantry that may or may not be in cover.

If you don't use drop pods, you tend to have a lot of drops, meaning you probably don't go first, meaning your non dropping units are gonna get shot at, and your opponent knows you are coming and can screen stuff even more than they did in deploying.

Units that can't reroll their charge need to be good enough at shooting that it's okay, or even planned that they won't assault. VV, Wolf guard, and Grav devs seem to do this okay, but assault units tend to pay a heavy price if they fail the charge.

This all makes me think that having half your army drop in, and dropping everything you have in on turn one isn't a great idea.

I've been leaning much more towards having 1 scary unit dropping in sometime during the game, but not necessarily on turn one. If you have enough other things on the table taking objctives and doing damage, the opponent is more likely to get out of formation and leave something vulnerable to being deep struck on. If that scary unit is something like 10 Wolf guard, vanguard vets, or death company, or terminators, it will still be quite disruptive to the enemy, and may be enough to force him to deploy defensiveky, giving you an advantage elsewhere. But then you also have 90% of an army on the table to distract, do damage, and threaten objectives.

jcd386 wrote:
My worry with lists that have a lot of stuff dropping in are as follows:

If the enemy knows you are coming, and they do, they should be able to screen their good stuff with their not as good stuff. This does limit the way they deploy, which is good for you, but maybe not good enough. Any good player is going to make sure that you can't get a charge of on a good unit, so when you come in you are too far away to do much. Then you take the brunt of the enemy shooting on basic infantry that may or may not be in cover.

If you don't use drop pods, you tend to have a lot of drops, meaning you probably don't go first, meaning your non dropping units are gonna get shot at, and your opponent knows you are coming and can screen stuff even more than they did in deploying.

Units that can't reroll their charge need to be good enough at shooting that it's okay, or even planned that they won't assault. VV, Wolf guard, and Grav devs seem to do this okay, but assault units tend to pay a heavy price if they fail the charge.

This all makes me think that having half your army drop in, and dropping everything you have in on turn one isn't a great idea.

I've been leaning much more towards having 1 scary unit dropping in sometime during the game, but not necessarily on turn one. If you have enough other things on the table taking objctives and doing damage, the opponent is more likely to get out of formation and leave something vulnerable to being deep struck on. If that scary unit is something like 10 Wolf guard, vanguard vets, or death company, or terminators, it will still be quite disruptive to the enemy, and may be enough to force him to deploy defensiveky, giving you an advantage elsewhere. But then you also have 90% of an army on the table to distract, do damage, and threaten objectives.

Yes the fear of what is in the Drop Pods can be a big threat and cause a Castling Response, if you are good you can use that to his advantage and cost them some maneuvering against what is hopefully a very Mobile Space Wolf Army.

As an example, I was playing my ultramarine list (Bobby g, 2x dakka dreads, las preds, rhinos, asscan razorbacks, captains, and scout units, plus three tac squads with Grav Cannon and Combi plasma) against a blood Angel player with lemartes, 15 death co, a captain, and a command squad dropping in on me while some other units moved up the board and scouts held objectives.

My list only has 9 drops with everything embarked, so I was going first, and deployed in a corner with the only chargeable units being a razorbacks, Dread, and rhino, each far enough from other units to not get oiled in on if things did go badly. I kept my scouts inside the outer transports to minimize my drops, with plans to disembark and advance them during my first turn.

Unfortunately for me, he stole the initiative, so I wasn't able to get my scouts out to block his drops, but my deployment was enough to keep the damage low. He made the charge with the death company, but failed with the other units. The death company beat up my razorback, and actually managed to lock up a rhino I had thought was too far away, but that was all. The next turn I killed all of the dropped units except the captain and lemartes, but got them both down to one wound. I am confident that this is the result i would get against most dropping lists, and this was an ideal scenario with him stealing the initiative.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.

Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?

I was doing that last edition and loving it.
None of my community wants anything to do with FW in 8th, something about a few models being beyond crazy.
Didn't stop them playing Invisibility, Wraithknights and Skyhammer last edition...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.

Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?

I was doing that last edition and loving it.
None of my community wants anything to do with FW in 8th, something about a few models being beyond crazy.
Didn't stop them playing Invisibility, Wraithknights and Skyhammer last edition...

Doesn't really matter honestly, it's part of regular GW now. Maybe in 5th it was an agreement but not anymore.

ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.

Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?

I was doing that last edition and loving it.
None of my community wants anything to do with FW in 8th, something about a few models being beyond crazy.
Didn't stop them playing Invisibility, Wraithknights and Skyhammer last edition...

Doesn't really matter honestly, it's part of regular GW now. Maybe in 5th it was an agreement but not anymore.

That's the part I found terrible. There was worse stuff in 7th ed Standard codecies than anything in 7th ed Forgeworld and Forgeworld was still by agreement.
...maybe someone in Forgeworld's rules writing department was equally disturbed by Forgeworld not being the crazy stuff.

So the Wolves haven't really been rocking the tournament scene and our W/L ratio is in a slow but steady decline in the dakka results thread...

Anyone with more games under their belt have a good idea what the new SW "meta" is? What has performed well and what is a no-go? Or are we internally balanced but just behind the curve?

Plasma Hunters in Assault Cannon Rozorbacks make a solid core. Bjorn kicks derrier in the HQ slot and works well with some Primaris units on foot like Hellblasters and Aggressors. Tempestus powers are pretty good and Njal has access to all 3 making him a good choice too.

Long Fangs can reroll 1s to hit which most other Marines require a babysitting HQ to achieve so I am fond of them provided you have some more pressing targets to keep your opponent preoccupied.

For assault, Wulfen and TWC still seem to rock. Wolf Guard on bikes look promising too, particularly the stormbolter variant for maximum dakka.

Both flyers have been getting a lot of love too so are worth considering.

How do you use Björn efficiently? He's rather expensive and unless you're going into melee to seriously wreck face I don't see him doing enough damage to earn his place. And in melee he is vulnerable... if you are seriously camping midfield to spread that reroll 1's around he becomes better obviously.

I think i would move him up with GH rhinos/razors so he can give them rerolls but still get cover.

I really like mech lists with rhinos, razors, long fangs, and grey hunters with 3 or 4 HQs for powers / rerolls.

Hey everyone, first post but I am a long time player coming back since 4th ed. I have a ton of old school stuff but none of the newer toys like aircraft, wulfin, thunderwolfs, stuff like that.

I have been playing against another new player learning the rules and they are tyrnaid. Finally we are playing power points until my opponent learns the rules better.

So I have read every post on this thread. My issue / question is about space wolf guard on bikes, I have 6 models to put together but not sure how. I was originally going to put them as 5 men w/ thunder hammers and storm shields with either a wolf lord or wolf priest in the group to make them hit harder / revive some. They were going to be big bug hunters. But it sounds like storm shields, storm bolters, and storm shields make for an incredibly fast, powerful, and shooty squad with some serious survival ability to deal with smaller bugs like genestealers, gaunts, tyrnaid warriors, things like that.

Why am I posting this here and not a separate thread? Because this is more of a "what is the better OVERALL load out for bikes now if you don't know what army your fighting" and not vs tyrnaid. I like to make my lists as all on comers and not focused on killing a single thing. Or should I do swiftwolves instead of guard?

Azuza001 wrote:
Hey everyone, first post but I am a long time player coming back since 4th ed. I have a ton of old school stuff but none of the newer toys like aircraft, wulfin, thunderwolfs, stuff like that.

I have been playing against another new player learning the rules and they are tyrnaid. Finally we are playing power points until my opponent learns the rules better.

So I have read every post on this thread. My issue / question is about space wolf guard on bikes, I have 6 models to put together but not sure how. I was originally going to put them as 5 men w/ thunder hammers and storm shields with either a wolf lord or wolf priest in the group to make them hit harder / revive some. They were going to be big bug hunters. But it sounds like storm shields, storm bolters, and storm shields make for an incredibly fast, powerful, and shooty squad with some serious survival ability to deal with smaller bugs like genestealers, gaunts, tyrnaid warriors, things like that.

Why am I posting this here and not a separate thread? Because this is more of a "what is the better OVERALL load out for bikes now if you don't know what army your fighting" and not vs tyrnaid. I like to make my lists as all on comers and not focused on killing a single thing. Or should I do swiftwolves instead of guard?

I run two wolf guard biker packs in 2000 points. One is kitted with shields and combi plasma to hunt hard targets while the other has shields and storm bolters to thin hordes.

crouching lictor wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Hey everyone, first post but I am a long time player coming back since 4th ed. I have a ton of old school stuff but none of the newer toys like aircraft, wulfin, thunderwolfs, stuff like that.

I have been playing against another new player learning the rules and they are tyrnaid. Finally we are playing power points until my opponent learns the rules better.

So I have read every post on this thread. My issue / question is about space wolf guard on bikes, I have 6 models to put together but not sure how. I was originally going to put them as 5 men w/ thunder hammers and storm shields with either a wolf lord or wolf priest in the group to make them hit harder / revive some. They were going to be big bug hunters. But it sounds like storm shields, storm bolters, and storm shields make for an incredibly fast, powerful, and shooty squad with some serious survival ability to deal with smaller bugs like genestealers, gaunts, tyrnaid warriors, things like that.

Why am I posting this here and not a separate thread? Because this is more of a "what is the better OVERALL load out for bikes now if you don't know what army your fighting" and not vs tyrnaid. I like to make my lists as all on comers and not focused on killing a single thing. Or should I do swiftwolves instead of guard?

I run two wolf guard biker packs in 2000 points. One is kitted with shields and combi plasma to hunt hard targets while the other has shields and storm bolters to thin hordes.

So your experience says that using the guard on bikes they should be shooting focused and not melee focused. Sad, as I love the idea of them roaring in on their bikes and smashing their opponents apart but it makes sense. Thanks.

Making them shooting oriented is just better because bolters + combi + regular attacks tends to do more damage than bolters + melee weapon attacks.

Thunder hammers also aren't great on WS 3+ models with only 2 attacks. Ideally you want them on wolf lords with 4 attacks, ws2+, and rerolls, or something similar.

Use Guard with Jump Packs for melee focused units

So wolf guard on bikes storm bolters and storm shields for extra survival mobile shooting platform seems to be the best way to go. I admit that 20 shots from 5 men is pretty sweet. That should really do a number on those damn squads of 15 genestealers lol.

Wolf guard with jump packs I see the same issue with thunder hammers here as on the bikers so frost axes? Would you gives them storm shields as well? I assume they will be deep striking (old rule term I know but I don't remember off the top of my head what the new rule is called). Leaves me 5 thunder hammers to put on something lol (I had them left over from years ago). But that's a problem for another time.

In the aforementioned WG Biker unit with all the storm bolters and shields, is it worth it to trade out the pack leader's shield for a good melee weapon like a Frost Sword?

I think it probably could be, sure.

Azuza001 wrote:
So wolf guard on bikes storm bolters and storm shields for extra survival mobile shooting platform seems to be the best way to go. I admit that 20 shots from 5 men is pretty sweet. That should really do a number on those damn squads of 15 genestealers lol.

Wolf guard with jump packs I see the same issue with thunder hammers here as on the bikers so frost axes? Would you gives them storm shields as well? I assume they will be deep striking (old rule term I know but I don't remember off the top of my head what the new rule is called). Leaves me 5 thunder hammers to put on something lol (I had them left over from years ago). But that's a problem for another time.

Power Mauls on the lads and a Frost Axe on the squad leader.
If you choose to deck your boys out for melee grab the stuff that's useful as often as possible.
Daemons, Sisters and Guard all hate Strength6, high rending values are meanigless to Daemons, Nids infantry, Space Marines with Storm Shields, Guard and often Sisters as well.
Strength six with one or two ap values will punk T3 models on a 2+ and bring most of them down to a 6+ save, Marines will be wounded on a 3+ and mostly drop to a 4+ save.
Fear the Marine with the Iron Club.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
In the aforementioned WG Biker unit with all the storm bolters and shields, is it worth it to trade out the pack leader's shield for a good melee weapon like a Frost Sword?

Depends really. But the leader is probably going to be your last man standing and the shield is probably not going to do much at that point. As much dakka as the bolters offer, it really isn't that effective against 2+/3+ saves, so a Frost Sword might actually sting a little on a last ditch charge. But I would keep them out of CC if at all possible, 2 attacks S4 AP0 is just too pathetic really compared to 8 shots S4 AP0.

So I ended up going with 4 wg on bikes with ss and sb, with a leader with sb and thunder hammer (couldn't resist), then found I had a 6th biker (no idea where he came from) so I modeled up a wolfpriest to ride with them. I also have a Wolford on a bike already with frost sword and stormshield from years ago, I am going to make these guys the center to focus my army around.

I really think I will go with the elite formation, I have a lot of terminators already, 5 with claws, 4 with thunder hammers and storm shields, 4 with assault cannons, 1 with cyclone missile launcher, 6 with power fist / storm bolters, and 3 with power weapons and storm bolters. Question is with those options where do I go next? Our games are 45 points max and my bikers already take a nice chunk out of it. A small squad to pin between the bikers and my hqs seem to be a good choice for a battle plan. Or maybe go long fangs, 5 missile and the term with cyclone?

Options lol. Our game is tomorrow so I have time to think.

Azuza001 wrote:
So I ended up going with 4 wg on bikes with ss and sb, with a leader with sb and thunder hammer (couldn't resist), then found I had a 6th biker (no idea where he came from) so I modeled up a wolfpriest to ride with them. I also have a Wolford on a bike already with frost sword and stormshield from years ago, I am going to make these guys the center to focus my army around.

I really think I will go with the elite formation, I have a lot of terminators already, 5 with claws, 4 with thunder hammers and storm shields, 4 with assault cannons, 1 with cyclone missile launcher, 6 with power fist / storm bolters, and 3 with power weapons and storm bolters. Question is with those options where do I go next? Our games are 45 points max and my bikers already take a nice chunk out of it. A small squad to pin between the bikers and my hqs seem to be a good choice for a battle plan. Or maybe go long fangs, 5 missile and the term with cyclone?

Options lol. Our game is tomorrow so I have time to think.

A Wolf priest is well wasted with a shooty squad. His greatest strength is the rerolls in CC and even with those he's slightly overcosted IMO. So unless you're utilizing the rerolls you are better off with something else. If you can position him so that he gives his aura to your CC terminators and/or Wolf Lord he might be viable though.