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Not sure where you get that idea about rank; IIRC, planetary governors and Chapter masters are of equivalent rank. It's just that hardly anyone other than officers of his Chapter have the authority to give him orders (although depending on circumstances, he could agree to follow the lead of a non-Marine).

Pseudomonas wrote:


I have and the campaign that I played in was entirely about shooting things.

That is neither the fault of the game nor the fluff. It's how your GM handled it. We played campaigns that were centred around exploration, diplomacy, investigation, intrigue, and yes, combat. All viable and all fluffy. We had as much fun uncovering the lost relics of long forgotten chapters as we did having a grand old hack and slash through a space hulk. The fact people are saying that it is impossible to do any of those other non-combat things with Space Marine PCs is just completely false. I repeat: i put that down to people having never played a game where they were a space marine PC (but wanting to sound like they know what they are talking about) or having played dull versions of Space Marine PCs. To say" it can't be done because fluff!" Is just utter rubbish.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not sure where you get that idea about rank; IIRC, planetary governors and Chapter masters are of equivalent rank. It's just that hardly anyone other than officers of his Chapter have the authority to give him orders (although depending on circumstances, he could agree to follow the lead of a non-Marine).

Every marine is an Adeptus Terra, just like every planetary governor. It doesn't mean much in practice I am sure but none the less a marine will have far more influence with the wider world than the average mook.

Caliginous wrote:

To say" it can't be done because fluff!" Is just utter rubbish.

Its not really. Marines are highly trained and indoctrinated in combat and associated roles, above all they are morally inflexible. They simply have much less scope than a standard human in terms of things that they could do in a 40k RPG. It's really as simple as that.

A good GM can indeed make the most of it (adding things like diplomacy for example) but the fluff does indeed impose limits.

I would be interested in seem the extent of the fluff mangling and mental contortion that would be required to get an ork and a marine in the same party.

As we have now really gotten lost in the weeds that's all I will be saying on this topic.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not sure where you get that idea about rank; IIRC, planetary governors and Chapter masters are of equivalent rank. It's just that hardly anyone other than officers of his Chapter have the authority to give him orders (although depending on circumstances, he could agree to follow the lead of a non-Marine).

Every marine is an Adeptus Terra, just like every planetary governor. It doesn't mean much in practice I am sure but none the less a marine will have far more influence with the wider world than the average mook.

There's more than one rank of Adept. Those guys who spend their lives filing paperwork are also members of the Adeptus Terra, but rather lowly ones.

In theory, only a higher-ranking Marine can order a Marine, since the Marines have an independent chain of command. but then again, Marines can't order Guardsmen, Arbites, etc, either. In practise, reputation and force of personality count for a lot. I bet there's plenty of Marines who'll do what Commissar Yarrick tells them, for example, even though he's not even entitled to order Guardsmen directly.

When Yarrick talks, even Astartes listen. When he said Hades Hive should not be defended, one Marine commander spoke up, but was quickly silenced by the others, who did know what the Old Man had done previously.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.

I am the GM in this case. I have yet to meet players who can roleplay loyalist marines in an interesting fashion while also being true to the fluff, and no way to make your typical story arcs with normal humans fit space marines in them outside of just making it a open warfare campaign.

Only place where a mixed party like this works is if you're playing a chaos party.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.

I am the GM in this case.

Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.

H.B.M.C. is correct.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.

I am the GM in this case.

Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.

H.B.M.C. is correct.

This. To use the previously mentioned example of the players having to infiltrate a party. Yes, obviously the marine would stick out like a sore thumb, so why hasn't the GM organised some side adventure for them to get involved in whilst the others are doing their thing in the party? The Space Marine player can have control of an NPC for the party segments and the other players control NPCs during the Space Marine segments.

Maybe the Space Marine player controls an imperial agent aiding the PCs in their investigation of the party guests, trying to identify criminals who are involved in trafficking highly-addictive narcotics. Meanwhile the Space Marine has joined a squad of Arbites (being played by the players whose characters are at the party) in a raid on a warehouse believed to be used by the drug cartel, with the raid running concurrently with the party, with guests at the party reacting to the news of the raid, allowing the players to identify cartel members by gauging their reactions, hacking their comms etc. And all of this then builds to a big reveal that the cartel is actually an undercover slaaneshi cult.

This has the advantage of not arbitrarily cutting out players from being able to contribute because of the class of their character whilst also giving them the opportunity to play different styles of characters for short periods of time. Some of these little side characters can result in great character moments if the players come up with fun, quirky personalities. Some which come to mind are from my Uni Dresden Files game where two of the player characters had to go to a council of wizards. There was no in-game reason for any of the other player characters to be there so instead we each got to play other wizards in the audience, which we relished by making them the most befuddled and prone to inane rambling speeches wizards since the Unseen University faculty.

Every marine is an Adeptus Terra, just like every planetary governor.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Adeptus Terra is just a term for the umbrella organization for the entire Imperium.
Imperial Gaurd, Assassins, the Navy, Custodes, Arbites, the Administratum... everything is Adeptus Terra.
Everything except the Inquisition, that is. And, as per the 6th edition Rule book when this was all outlined thoroughly, the Astartes are actually only loosely associated with the Adeptus Terra.

What does being in the Adeptus Terra have anything to do with chain of command?

Space marines are first and foremost soldiers. Just because they stand apart as a fighting force and have relative autonomy in choosing their theater of war, that doesn't mean that most space marine legions don't respect chain of command and orders from humans who out rank them. Just look at the Deathwatch. They fight along side humans and take orders from them constantly.

I will say one thing: players drawn to play space marines in mixed parties are either ones who love their lore and will play them very accurately (which has... limitations) or the sort of player who doesn't care about roleplaying at all and wants to build the meanest combat character he can. Not always true, but those are the general two categories. You can work with ether type of course, but it can be exhausting.

I haven't dealt with this personally, but I did have a player run an ogryn in only war and that was bad enough. He was type two, which means he wasn't even invested in RPing a friendly dumb ogryn which can at least be funny. It makes things a bit harder. Not insurmountable, the campaign was still a lot of fun, but it created more work.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.

I am the GM in this case.

Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.

H.B.M.C. is correct.

This. To use the previously mentioned example of the players having to infiltrate a party. Yes, obviously the marine would stick out like a sore thumb, so why hasn't the GM organised some side adventure for them to get involved in whilst the others are doing their thing in the party? The Space Marine player can have control of an NPC for the party segments and the other players control NPCs during the Space Marine segments.

Maybe the Space Marine player controls an imperial agent aiding the PCs in their investigation of the party guests, trying to identify criminals who are involved in trafficking highly-addictive narcotics. Meanwhile the Space Marine has joined a squad of Arbites (being played by the players whose characters are at the party) in a raid on a warehouse believed to be used by the drug cartel, with the raid running concurrently with the party, with guests at the party reacting to the news of the raid, allowing the players to identify cartel members by gauging their reactions, hacking their comms etc. And all of this then builds to a big reveal that the cartel is actually an undercover slaaneshi cult.

This has the advantage of not arbitrarily cutting out players from being able to contribute because of the class of their character whilst also giving them the opportunity to play different styles of characters for short periods of time. Some of these little side characters can result in great character moments if the players come up with fun, quirky personalities. Some which come to mind are from my Uni Dresden Files game where two of the player characters had to go to a council of wizards. There was no in-game reason for any of the other player characters to be there so instead we each got to play other wizards in the audience, which we relished by making them the most befuddled and prone to inane rambling speeches wizards since the Unseen University faculty.

As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.

I am the GM in this case. I have yet to meet players who can roleplay loyalist marines in an interesting fashion while also being true to the fluff, and no way to make your typical story arcs with normal humans fit space marines in them outside of just making it a open warfare campaign.

Only place where a mixed party like this works is if you're playing a chaos party.

O.o Do you watch Science Fiction movies, or old Black and White mysteries? Do you read books? DO you pre-play the modules and think of how to cater the adventure to your particular group?

I'm honestly not one to point fingers and call people out. All I would recommend is to look over on YouTube, and look into how to DM in other games.

A few Arcs, BTW on the top of my head.

The Space marine is a lone survivor, and you have to help him gather up some gear/ find out where he is supposed to go to, and use a couple of hooks as you get lone space marine home.

Fish out of Water.
Put space marine in an alterative roll. He can't fight, so now it is development and character development time.
"I'm not a techmarine, but I'm as close as your going to get right now..."
"I can help teach you all to stand on your own feet and defend your settlement. I can help, but YOU have to stand up for yourselves against these XYZ enemies..."
" Hey, we just lost our leader, we have this Space Marine, unfortunately he lost his gak along the way, so we need to get him tooled up with some weapons and get his armor fixed, as we help him find his XYZ widget..."

 EnTyme wrote:

As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.

You're handed a completely blank slate, you can make that character whoever you want it to be and make a memorable NPC that your group will remember and share stories of for years to come. And if you really don't want to then don't, instead sit quietly and wait for the action to come back to where your character is.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.

You're handed a completely blank slate, you can make that character whoever you want it to be and make a memorable NPC that your group will remember and share stories of for years to come. And if you really don't want to then don't, instead sit quietly and wait for the action to come back to where your character is.

If by "blank slate" you mean "blank character sheet", then no. It' not my character. If the GM has in any way described the character before handing control to you, he has already established a baseline for the character and is then, by definition, not my character. I would rather take the second option and just sit this one out.


Grot 6 alluded to another issue with Space Marines in mixed parties in his examples of non-combat scenarios for Space Marines: It's really hard for the SM to not become the focal point of the campaign due to their very nature and importance in the setting. That's never a good thing in any roleplaying system. That's why I didn't allow Space Marines in the party unless we were playing a Space Marine campaign.

Seems unnecessarily limiting.

It feels like a lone Space Marine would be a great fit in a party of mixed adventurers.

Especially in tales set in the 40K galaxy!

 Alpharius wrote:
Seems unnecessarily limiting.

It feels like a lone Space Marine would be a great fit in a party of mixed adventurers.

Especially in tales set in the 40K galaxy!

I mean what words should worry a party more than "Bored Space Wolf"?

With chapter informing a fair bit of the angles you can go play with it's rather easy to rattle off non-combat opportunities for space marines, ultramarine statesmen acting as advisors, salamanders artificing or generally being helpful, Dark Angels skulking around with surprising skill for no apparent reason, there's a good deal of personality to deal with even with the boring chapters. You're playing someone who's likely lived multiple human life times, sure he's combat proficient to an absurd level, but the guy's been around the block in plenty of other ways. While they may not want to get tied up into the everyday, unless they're with their chapter they most certainly will. They'll always be somewhat apart, but they have plenty they're capable of.

But again, it's the balance issue. A space marine will be the focal point of placed alongside normal baseline, or even somewhat experienced, humans. That's their nature both mechanically and lore wise. It's hard to balance that as a DM and stay true to the world.

They work, but they work in something like high level inquisition play, where they are adventuring alongside inquisitors, imperial assassins, etc.

 EnTyme wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.

You're handed a completely blank slate, you can make that character whoever you want it to be and make a memorable NPC that your group will remember and share stories of for years to come. And if you really don't want to then don't, instead sit quietly and wait for the action to come back to where your character is.

If by "blank slate" you mean "blank character sheet", then no. It' not my character. If the GM has in any way described the character before handing control to you, he has already established a baseline for the character and is then, by definition, not my character. I would rather take the second option and just sit this one out.


Grot 6 alluded to another issue with Space Marines in mixed parties in his examples of non-combat scenarios for Space Marines: It's really hard for the SM to not become the focal point of the campaign due to their very nature and importance in the setting. That's never a good thing in any roleplaying system. That's why I didn't allow Space Marines in the party unless we were playing a Space Marine campaign.

You're not creating and rolling up a whole new character, you are contributing to the campaign by providing the personality and character traits of an NPC during time of the game where your PC is not present. It is not the stats which make characters good or memorable, it is how they are played. You are assigned the role of an arbite assisting the space marine, do you make him the gruff no-nonsense sergeant? Maybe the nervous redshirt on his first mission, or the squad clown who makes it his personal quest to make the space marine laugh?

There is nothing more rewarding in a game than making what was meant to be a throwaway NPC mook a beloved character within the game, to the point that the players will actually go out of their way to help that NPC even when doing so has negative repercussions to their campaign goals and will want to hear more about. When you manage that, you know you have crafted a great character.

I agree with ATCM here. Improvising personalities and backstories for NPC's to the point of making your players (If you are the GM, or other players) love them and actually gives them the desire to know more about that NPC is one of the ... Master of Roleplay traits that one should want to achieve.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think the solution to allowing someone to play a Space Marine should be "make him play someone other than a Space Marine from time to time". If I chose to play a Space Marine, it wasn't because I wanted to roleplay an arbite.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.

I am the GM in this case.

Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.

H.B.M.C. is correct.

Sure, the GM does have a bit responsibility to help, but it is primarily on the players to role-play their characters. The GM's job is to just give them opportunities to do this.

Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans. And frankly, I as a GM do not have the time to deal with this major extra hassle. I have to prep for the basics of the next adventure and plan for contingencies. Having to tweak stuff to accommodate a Marine is just a bridge too far IMO.

If other people can do it good for them, but for me it's both too much work and/or it often just breaks the suspension of disbelief in the setting.

 Grot 6 wrote:

Fish out of Water.
Put space marine in an alterative roll. He can't fight, so now it is development and character development time.
"I'm not a techmarine, but I'm as close as your going to get right now..."
"I can help teach you all to stand on your own feet and defend your settlement. I can help, but YOU have to stand up for yourselves against these XYZ enemies..."
" Hey, we just lost our leader, we have this Space Marine, unfortunately he lost his gak along the way, so we need to get him tooled up with some weapons and get his armor fixed, as we help him find his XYZ widget..."

Good post, and also one of the ways I've found to make a Space Marine work in a mixed party.

Make them the "Yankee in King Arthur's court." Remove them from support and familiarity; introduce them to ambiguity; etc.

As had been pointed out, they can be difficult to conceal (but not impossible - can you say Ogryn disguise?), which also helps balance.

Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans

So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.

One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:

So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder

etc.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans

So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.

One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:

So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder

etc.

That sounds to me like letting one player dictate the direction and mood of the entire campaign, and that's rarely, if ever, a good thing. To put it in D&D terms, that would be like the DM redesigning his whole campaign because one player wants to play and level 20 paladin and won't play if he the DM doesn't let him. It's simpler to just tell that player to piss off.

I can't wait for some actual news and previews in this thread.

I'm thinking in might be time to split off the RPG theory/wishlisting/speculation/design into a separate thread?

At least until we have some actual working knowledge of things here?

 EnTyme wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans

So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.

One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:

So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder

etc.

That sounds to me like letting one player dictate the direction and mood of the entire campaign, and that's rarely, if ever, a good thing. To put it in D&D terms, that would be like the DM redesigning his whole campaign because one player wants to play and level 20 paladin and won't play if he the DM doesn't let him. It's simpler to just tell that player to piss off.

YMMV. To me, RPGing is about what I do during the sessions; the backstory is just there to drive that. So I'm happy starting as green PDF troopers or a grizzled veteran of thirty years of warfare.

The beauty of this new system is that it looks like it'll let you do both. If you're not keen on PC Marines, don't allow them.

 Alpharius wrote:
I can't wait for some actual news and previews in this thread.

I'm thinking in might be time to split off the RPG theory/wishlisting/speculation/design into a separate thread?

At least until we have some actual working knowledge of things here?

That may be prudent.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans

So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.

One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:

So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder

etc.

That sounds to me like letting one player dictate the direction and mood of the entire campaign, and that's rarely, if ever, a good thing. To put it in D&D terms, that would be like the DM redesigning his whole campaign because one player wants to play and level 20 paladin and won't play if he the DM doesn't let him. It's simpler to just tell that player to piss off.

Not really its more like:

"Ok do we want to do high level campaign (Marines are fine) or a low level campaign (not fine)"

I have run both and both are equally fun

When people say Marines cannot interact well with humans and are morally unflexible, I can't stop but think on how Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Salamanders discord from such affirmative. Such line of hinking works for Imperial Fists or Carcharodons, bit not for EVERY marine

I guess I should make this official?

 Alpharius wrote:
I can't wait for some actual news and previews in this thread.

I'm thinking in might be time to split off the RPG theory/wishlisting/speculation/design into a separate thread?

At least until we have some actual working knowledge of things here?