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So the news seems they delaying things.

They holding back and asking for negotiations with the spanish.

As predicted.

I'm just waiting to watch the CUP's take on things.

Again, popcorn time.

Some people aren't happy at all. Hell, I'm not happy at all.

But they had an ace in the hole for the 1O, so hopefully they have an ace in the hole now.

Now to wait for the Spanish gov to move. If they send the tanks they are recognising a UDI, if they negotiate their base will hate them.

So they are probably gonna send the tanks.

The problem is... what are they gonna negotiate? More privileges to Catalonia? "Give us things, or we are gonna leave"?
The problem with that, is that we come down again to the fact that the rest of the Autonomic Comunities are gonna look dumb, because if catalonia gain privileges with this, why shouldn't the rest do the same?

If, in the other hand, by negotiation they are talking about, negotiating the terms of the independence, thats a big no-no from the Gogerment.

 Galas wrote:
The problem is... what are they gonna negotiate? More privileges to Catalonia? "Give us things, or we are gonna leave"?
The problem with that, is that we come down again to the fact that the rest of the Autonomic Comunities are gonna look dumb, because if catalonia gain privileges with this, why shouldn't the rest do the same?

If, in the other hand, by negotiation they are talking about, negotiating the terms of the independence, thats a big no-no from the Gogerment.

I think the point is that if Rajoy refuses to sit and talk the UDI is legitimised because we tried to negotiate but the gov didnt.

If Spain sits and negotiates? Things were being thrown around about us getting the Basque deal. Which I certainly wouldn't mind. As for the other CA's asking for more privileges? They totes should be, but they aren't. Maybe the whole "Coffee for everyone" deal wasn't realistic? Maybe only some regions wanted autonomy? Maybe they are fine with their competences and don't want more? Maybe they are ruled by people who don't want more privilegees for the CAs?

Or it may be a clever ploy, Slovenian style. Tomorrow Independence will be proclaimed, border posts taken and the Spanish army thoroughly humiliated and destroyed. A teenager can dream.

But yeah, the negotiation bit was directed to the International Community, not to the Spanish Government.

 Galas wrote:
The problem is... what are they gonna negotiate? More privileges to Catalonia? "Give us things, or we are gonna leave"?
The problem with that, is that we come down again to the fact that the rest of the Autonomic Comunities are gonna look dumb, because if catalonia gain privileges with this, why shouldn't the rest do the same?

If, in the other hand, by negotiation they are talking about, negotiating the terms of the independence, thats a big no-no from the Gogerment.

Well, it is up to the Spanish government to find something to talk about now. Puigdemont is willing to talk, now they need to be to. The only alternative to talking is the use of force, which is not going to end well for anyone.

jouso wrote:
I'm just waiting to watch the CUP's take on things.

Again, popcorn time.

Well they've stopped just short of calling Puigdemont a traitor. Another crack in the Indy wall.

Puigdemont praying that someone will take his idea of internationalisation of the conflict seriously because a good part of his Indy base either has been radicalised beyond repair and is solidly in the hands of the CUP or genuinely fears for their livelihood.

Puigdemont is finished as a politician, and already the vultures are circling around the corpse. Junqueras will carry the Indy banner while the former CiU are already grooming Santi Vila as a less confrontational figure (he's the economy minister that earlier this week called for delaying the whole thing once companies started to look for greener pastures).

Of course there's still hope for the Indies that Rajoy will overreact and once again cement those cracks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aldo wrote:


Or it may be a clever ploy, Slovenian style. Tomorrow Independence will be proclaimed, border posts taken and the Spanish army thoroughly humiliated and destroyed. A teenager can dream.

While brief, that was still a war, with 60+ dead. And Indy supporters were complaining about a few cracked heads?

Not to mention that Slovenia had German and international backing while Catalonia has feth all.

If I was the Spanish government I would announce a process to create a convention to consider the claims of Catalonia and the other regions with the purpose of revising the constitution to accommodate such diversity within a new federal structure.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I was the Spanish government I would announce a process to create a convention to consider the claims of Catalonia and the other regions with the purpose of revising the constitution to accommodate such diversity within a new federal structure.

That could be a dream come true. But it isn't gonna happen. We can't even have a referendum to decide if we want a Monarchy or a Republic...

Do you know the best thing about all of this? During this two months, the approval of the state's general budgets has been postponed. So we are here, after a whole year with the actual Goverment, and not even the state budgest have been aproved.
Mariano Rajoy's should have call for elections at this point, but at this rate he is gonna have a full 4-year legislature

Rise up, and demand your democratic rights.

I know it's easy for me to say.

The obvious response is an elective monarchy.

This is subrealist. At this moment nobody knows if they have actually declared their independence, or not

The Schrodinger's Nation.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The obvious response is an elective monarchy.

I suggest you model it after Pentos.

Pentos is a city where wealth equals power, ruled over by a prince with a council of rich magisters. The prince has a mostly ceremonial function, however, while the magisters rule. The prince, who is chosen from forty families, presides chiefly over balls and feasts.[6] He is carried from place to place in a rich palanquin with a handsome guard. Each new year he deflowers two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields, to ensure prosperity on land and sea.If there is famine or war is lost, the magisters sacrifice the prince and slit his throat to appease the gods, then choose a new prince.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem is... what are they gonna negotiate? More privileges to Catalonia? "Give us things, or we are gonna leave"?
The problem with that, is that we come down again to the fact that the rest of the Autonomic Comunities are gonna look dumb, because if catalonia gain privileges with this, why shouldn't the rest do the same?

If, in the other hand, by negotiation they are talking about, negotiating the terms of the independence, thats a big no-no from the Gogerment.

Well, it is up to the Spanish government to find something to talk about now. Puigdemont is willing to talk, now they need to be to. The only alternative to talking is the use of force, which is not going to end well for anyone.

The range of options is not exactly great.
Finding a peaceful ending would be preferable.

jouso wrote:

jouso wrote:
I'm just waiting to watch the CUP's take on things.

Again, popcorn time.

Well they've stopped just short of calling Puigdemont a traitor. Another crack in the Indy wall.

And it gets better, CUP feel betrayed by the Puigdemont administration and will cease all parliamentary activity until "decisive steps towards an independent republic" are taken. Full-on divorce, to be expected when a Christian democratic party in the mould of the UK Tories or German CDU gets in bed with the anti-capitalist left.

Pres. Rajoy has announced an urgent cabinet meeting for tomorrow morning where they will discuss the Catalonia situation after a private meeting with PSOE's leader Pedro Sánchez.

Incidentally Catalonia's largest publishing house Grupo Planeta, which btw is the largest Spanish language publishing conglomerate, is also upping sticks and moving to Madrid.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Rise up, and demand your democratic rights.

I know it's easy for me to say.

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

Tyran wrote:
Brexit and Trump happened. Economic arguments are very easy to defeat by populism.

Eh? Both of those relied on the other side not being able to talk coherently about economics, and the media being lazy and letting their economic narratives (and lies) just stand unexamined. Trump led thousands to the voting stations by economic arguments alone.

Voss wrote:

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

They want to pay less for the other regions of Spain, disregarding their own deficit and other more complicated issues.
I find the Catalans amazing, in a disconcerting way. Which oppression are they subjected to in the centuries? Is as if they compare their situation to, say, the Irish/English relationship while the historical background is completely different.

I cannot help feel contempt for these people.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Rise up, and demand your democratic rights.

Spain doesn't have a referendum on keeping the Monarchy or becoming a republic for the same reasons the UK isn't having one either. There's just not enough public support for that.

20% tops.

jouso wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Rise up, and demand your democratic rights.

Spain doesn't have a referendum on keeping the Monarchy or becoming a republic for the same reasons the UK isn't having one either. There's just not enough public support for that.

20% tops.

Obviously that's the percentage of the population that should be allowed to vote. We cannot have majorities voting the wrong thing. Or so some people were saying last election when Mr Rajoy managed to barely scrap by. If old people don't know how to vote the "correct" choice they shouldn't be allowed to vote at all.

M.

Kaiyanwang wrote:

Voss wrote:

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

They want to pay less for the other regions of Spain, disregarding their own deficit and other more complicated issues.
I find the Catalans amazing, in a disconcerting way. Which oppression are they subjected to in the centuries? Is as if they compare their situation to, say, the Irish/English relationship while the historical background is completely different.

I cannot help feel contempt for these people.

Voss wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Rise up, and demand your democratic rights.

I know it's easy for me to say.

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

Tyran wrote:
Brexit and Trump happened. Economic arguments are very easy to defeat by populism.

Eh? Both of those relied on the other side not being able to talk coherently about economics, and the media being lazy and letting their economic narratives (and lies) just stand unexamined. Trump led thousands to the voting stations by economic arguments alone.

You guys really dont get ethnicity, do you?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You guys really dont get ethnicity, do you?

You can have your ethnicity and still be part of a wider union with other people. Catalans for the most part feel both Catalan and Spanish (and European on top of that), only 22% feel exclusively Catalan on the last survey in July.

Identity is not necessarily binary, there are degrees and overlaps.... unless you're using it as a tool for confrontation, that is.

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You guys really dont get ethnicity, do you?

You can have your ethnicity and still be part of a wider union with other people. Catalans for the most part feel both Catalan and Spanish (and European on top of that), only 22% feel exclusively Catalan on the last survey in July.

Identity is not necessarily binary, there are degrees and overlaps.... unless you're using it as a tool for confrontation, that is.

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not. It depends on the specific ethnic identity.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You guys really dont get ethnicity, do you?

You can have your ethnicity and still be part of a wider union with other people. Catalans for the most part feel both Catalan and Spanish (and European on top of that), only 22% feel exclusively Catalan on the last survey in July.

Identity is not necessarily binary, there are degrees and overlaps.... unless you're using it as a tool for confrontation, that is.

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not. It depends on the specific ethnic identity.

On the topic at hand you definitely can. Unless you want to self-impose an us vs them mentality.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The obvious response is an elective monarchy.

I suggest you model it after Pentos.

Pentos is a city where wealth equals power, ruled over by a prince with a council of rich magisters. The prince has a mostly ceremonial function, however, while the magisters rule. The prince, who is chosen from forty families, presides chiefly over balls and feasts.[6] He is carried from place to place in a rich palanquin with a handsome guard. Each new year he deflowers two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields, to ensure prosperity on land and sea.If there is famine or war is lost, the magisters sacrifice the prince and slit his throat to appease the gods, then choose a new prince.

Best idea ive read all thread!

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You guys really dont get ethnicity, do you?

You can have your ethnicity and still be part of a wider union with other people. Catalans for the most part feel both Catalan and Spanish (and European on top of that), only 22% feel exclusively Catalan on the last survey in July.

Identity is not necessarily binary, there are degrees and overlaps.... unless you're using it as a tool for confrontation, that is.

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not. It depends on the specific ethnic identity.

On the topic at hand you definitely can. Unless you want to self-impose an us vs them mentality.

Without us vs them there can be no ethnicity or any kind of group mentality. Humans are social creatures that naturally gather in like minded groups. An us vs them mentality is something every single human is guilty of.
On the topic at hand, it is definitely possible to reconcile a Catalan identity with a larger Spanish identity and be both at the same time, just like Frisians in the Netherlands also feel Dutch or Chuvash in Russia also feel Russian. This is quite common and a lot of Catalans do seem to identify as Spanish. But it also seems that a very significant portion of Catalans does not have or has lost the Spanish identity. And that obviously is going to create trouble. Even if the current crisis is solved, the problem will just surface again. Only permanent solutions are either accepting Catalan independence or to find a way to make the Catalans identify as Spanish as well as Catalan. I am not sure whether the Spanish government is taking good steps towards that however.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You guys really dont get ethnicity, do you?

You can have your ethnicity and still be part of a wider union with other people. Catalans for the most part feel both Catalan and Spanish (and European on top of that), only 22% feel exclusively Catalan on the last survey in July.

Identity is not necessarily binary, there are degrees and overlaps.... unless you're using it as a tool for confrontation, that is.

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not. It depends on the specific ethnic identity.

On the topic at hand you definitely can. Unless you want to self-impose an us vs them mentality.

Without us vs them there can be no ethnicity or any kind of group mentality. Humans are social creatures that naturally gather in like minded groups. An us vs them mentality is something every single human is guilty of.
On the topic at hand, it is definitely possible to reconcile a Catalan identity with a larger Spanish identity and be both at the same time, just like Frisians in the Netherlands also feel Dutch or Chuvash in Russia also feel Russian. This is quite common and a lot of Catalans do seem to identify as Spanish. But it also seems that a very significant portion of Catalans does not have or has lost the Spanish identity. And that obviously is going to create trouble. Even if the current crisis is solved, the problem will just surface again. Only permanent solutions are either accepting Catalan independence or to find a way to make the Catalans identify as Spanish as well as Catalan. I am not sure whether the Spanish government is taking good steps towards that however.

You have the figures earlier in the thread. Support for straight-up, unconditional independence is hovering around 35% Around 20% of people feel exclusively Catalan.

What's up with the 65/80% that make up the rest of Catalans? They're every bit as Catalan (in citizenship terms) as the others.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Voss wrote:

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

They want to pay less for the other regions of Spain, disregarding their own deficit and other more complicated issues.
I find the Catalans amazing, in a disconcerting way. Which oppression are they subjected to in the centuries? Is as if they compare their situation to, say, the Irish/English relationship while the historical background is completely different.

I cannot help feel contempt for these people.

I mean, through-out the centuries there have been periods where their language and aspects of their ethnic individuality was suppressed by Spanish rulers (typically after siding with a losing party in a civil war).
Not the most oppressed culture since most of the time that hasn't been the case, but it's not like it hasn't ever happened.

Also from my understanding Catalonia has less exemptions (specifically the ability to control their own tax rates) than Basque despite being a richer region? Though this is just what I've been hearing recently, and I'm by no means an expert on the intricacies of Spain and its regions.

The problem when you speak about ethnicity is that you are talking about "Catalans" and "Spanish" as being two different groups.

The truth is that, theres no such thing as "Spaniards". A catalonian is no less spanish than a Basque, or a Galician, or someone from Andalucia.
Theres no such thing as "Spanish culture". The fascists, spanish nationalists and Franco's own view about what is spanish and what is not where totally arbitrary.
Many of the things that people associate with Spain, like Flamenco, are from Andalucia, a Community with their own independists movement.
Why is the dance from Andalucia more "spanish" than the Sardanas of Catalonia, the Muñeiras of Galicia or the Canary dance from the Canary Islands? The truth is that, it isn't. Spain is the sum of its parts, and the vast mayority of people think like that.

Franco's Spanish nationalism promoted a unitary national identity by repressing Spain's cultural diversity. Bullfighting and flamenco[84] were promoted as national traditions while those traditions not considered "Spanish" were suppressed. Franco's view of Spanish tradition was somewhat artificial and arbitrary: while some regional traditions were suppressed, Flamenco, an Andalusian tradition, was considered part of a larger, national identity. All cultural activities were subject to censorship, and many, such as the Sardana, the national dance of Catalunya, were plainly forbidden (often in an erratic manner). This cultural policy was relaxed over time, most notably during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Voss wrote:

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

They want to pay less for the other regions of Spain, disregarding their own deficit and other more complicated issues.
I find the Catalans amazing, in a disconcerting way. Which oppression are they subjected to in the centuries? Is as if they compare their situation to, say, the Irish/English relationship while the historical background is completely different.

I cannot help feel contempt for these people.

I mean, through-out the centuries there have been periods where their language and aspects of their ethnic individuality was suppressed by Spanish rulers (typically after siding with a losing party in a civil war).
Not the most oppressed culture since most of the time that hasn't been the case, but it's not like it hasn't ever happened.

Also from my understanding Catalonia has less exemptions (specifically the ability to control their own tax rates) than Basque despite being a richer region? Though this is just what I've been hearing recently, and I'm by no means an expert on the intricacies of Spain and its regions.

Problem is, those rulers tended to suppress the rest of the different languages and peoples that make up modern Spain. It was by no means unique to the Catalans, and they can hardly complain about the situation now. Everything that's in public hands now is skewed towards promoting the Catalan language and culture. The main language at public schools is Catalan, Catalan is a requisite to take up public employment, the regional Catalan TV station is exclusively in Catalan language, not insignificant subsidies are doled out to private newspapers, radio stations and to dub films in Catalan. Yes, they had it rough for a while but not anymore. Not with the present constitutional monarchy established in 1978.

It is true though that Basque country and Navarre have a privilege dating back to medieval times when they were incorporated into the kingdom of Castile, which puts significant limits in their interregional solidarity (though for two Basque provinces it was temporarily rescinded during the Franco dictatorship since they were considered "traitor provinces"). It's a very thorny issue and like many things in Europe has many roots and ramifications. Keep in mind though that the Catalans were initially offered this deal in the early years of the modern democracy and the Catalan politicians of the day rejected because they thought they would be better off in the general regime.

Galas wrote:The problem when you speak about ethnicity is that you are talking about "Catalans" and "Spanish" as being two different groups.

That is true, yes. What I really mean when I say 'Spanish rulers' is 'rulers of the collection of regions known as Spain'.
(If you aren't referring to me with this, feel free to rightfully ignore this).

jouso wrote:

Spoiler:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Voss wrote:

What democratic rights are they lacking exactly? The right to vote in Spanish elections? No... they've got that. The right to vote in Catalonian elections? No, they've got that, too.
I'm unclear what rights you think anyone involved are lacking.

They want to pay less for the other regions of Spain, disregarding their own deficit and other more complicated issues.
I find the Catalans amazing, in a disconcerting way. Which oppression are they subjected to in the centuries? Is as if they compare their situation to, say, the Irish/English relationship while the historical background is completely different.

I cannot help feel contempt for these people.

I mean, through-out the centuries there have been periods where their language and aspects of their ethnic individuality was suppressed by Spanish rulers (typically after siding with a losing party in a civil war).
Not the most oppressed culture since most of the time that hasn't been the case, but it's not like it hasn't ever happened.

Also from my understanding Catalonia has less exemptions (specifically the ability to control their own tax rates) than Basque despite being a richer region? Though this is just what I've been hearing recently, and I'm by no means an expert on the intricacies of Spain and its regions.

Problem is, those rulers tended to suppress the rest of the different languages and peoples that make up modern Spain. It was by no means unique to the Catalans, and they can hardly complain about the situation now. Everything that's in public hands now is skewed towards promoting the Catalan language and culture. The main language at public schools is Catalan, Catalan is a requisite to take up public employment, the regional Catalan TV station is exclusively in Catalan language, not insignificant subsidies are doled out to private newspapers, radio stations and to dub films in Catalan. Yes, they had it rough for a while but not anymore. Not with the present constitutional monarchy established in 1978.

It is true though that Basque country and Navarre have a privilege dating back to medieval times when they were incorporated into the kingdom of Castile, which puts significant limits in their interregional solidarity (though for two Basque provinces it was temporarily rescinded during the Franco dictatorship since they were considered "traitor provinces"). It's a very thorny issue and like many things in Europe has many roots and ramifications. Keep in mind though that the Catalans were initially offered this deal in the early years of the modern democracy and the Catalan politicians of the day rejected because they thought they would be better off in the general regime.

As I said, I'm by no means an expert on inter-regional Spanish politics as is and was merely repeating what little stuff I have heard recently about why some Catalonians want independence. Also, my point was more that there have been periods where Catalans were oppressed (Kaiyanwang seemed to be saying that they had never been oppressed ever).
As an aside, I must admit, I was actually thinking more about the aftermath of the War of Spanish Succession than the much more recent and relevant dictatorship (my modern European history knowledge isn't so great outside of some of the key events in the 2 World Wars), though I do know that again it wasn't just Catalonia that was affected.