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Because you need to take 2 or more to get access to important detachments, they don't play well with their own toys (Incubi are most commonly employed as bodyguards for Archons, so let's go out of our way to make sure that the Archon's bubble doesn't actually support the unit most likely to accompany him), and the require significant investment of traits and relics to do their job. And unfortunately, Djinn Blades are one per army.

It's the obvious price of splitting the faction so far that GW didn't manage to foresee. It's where the pain of the Dark Eldar's Skornergy really shines. It matters because not only is it a huge missed opportunity (VECT), but it seriously inhibits gameplay.

The Dark Eldar codex is a good book, it has a lot of good things going for it and it's one of the better written codeces of 8th edition so far. But this is definitely a big problem.

 Aaranis wrote:

Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.

ok what page does it say that on?

 Aaranis wrote:

Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.

You should probably address the fact that the Ulthwe stratagem explicitly requires you to use it on an Ulthwe unit, whereas the Black Heart one has no such requirement, if you want anyone to find this persuasive.

I mean... going by RAW, Agents of Vect doesn't place any restriction on you. There's nothing that restricts its utility to the Kabal of the Black heart. I'm expecting this'll get FAQ'd, but as things stand, it's pretty clearly without restriction.

Tyel wrote:
I don't really see the sob story for DE HQs.

They are cheap compared to a lot of other factions. Sure it might be nice to shave off another 20 points - but does it really matter?

When we're forced to take them, absolutely.

However, rather than just a price cut, I'd prefer to see more sensible options made with regard to their auras and such.

In the Archon's case, there's no reason for him to even have an aura. What if instead he had an ability like 'At the beginning of your shooting phase, you may choose an enemy unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of a transport he's currently embarked on). For the remainder of the turn, friendly Drukhari units reroll hit rolls of 1 against the designated unit.

(The Writ of the Living Muse artefact would allow you to reroll to-wound rolls of 1 against the designated enemy.)

Now the Archon can apply his buff from a transport. He doesn't need to be close to the units he wants to buff, and there's also a reason to include more than 1 Archon in your army (since they can each designate different targets to get rerolls against).

You could make it <Kabal> units instead of Drukhari units, but I think this better cements him as the overall leader.

That's just off the top of my head, but I'd much rather see something like that than just have another 10-20pts knocked off his cost (which is dull and doesn't address the core problems).

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I don't necessarily agree with all of the things you list, but these three I'm with you 100% Like, Succubi should be able to take a skyboard or bike, just like most other factions HQs have non-"vehicle" vehicle options (I mean, a lot of them were Hellions and Reavers before they were wyches), or else have some sort of rule that lets them tag along with those units, matching the fluff of them leaping from skyboard to bike to ground and back, or at the very least, have and Arena Champion or Helliarch HQ that can provide bonuses to those units. And it would have been so simple to give Drukhari vehicles a rule that let auras work with them (and also, to give at least Venoms a 6 man capacity, like the nearly identical Starweaver, if not give Raiders an 11 or 12 man capacity)

Agreed. I'll add that I think Archons should be able to take Scourge wings.

 vipoid wrote:

You could make it <Kabal> units instead of Drukhari units, but I think this better cements him as the overall leader

Eh, I know I'm resorting to the hated fluff argument, but I'd reserve it to the Kabal, because inter-faction leadership is never cemented with Drukhari. Even Vect everyone would happily murder if they could get away with it.

Agreed. I'll add that I think Archons should be able to take Scourge wings.

I love this idea, because it would create parity with Swooping Hawk Autarchs, buuuuuut again I don't know if it would fit the fluff. Scourges have sort've inherently separated themselves from the rest of Drukhari politics.

Tyel wrote:
I don't really see the sob story for DE HQs.

They are cheap compared to a lot of other factions. Sure it might be nice to shave off another 20 points - but does it really matter?

It's a combination of four things. They're not cheap, they're not good, they're not spammable, and they can't share detachments.

1. Most armies are taking cheaper HQs than these when they're trying to fill slots and farm CP (such as Company Commanders, Warlocks, or Cadre Fireblades).
2. Lots of factions have HQs that are independently good so aren't a tax, and so they don't care that they're spending a lot on them (such as all of the aforementioned as well as Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants, Farseers, or Daemon Princes).
3. Lots of these are even good when taken multiply, and so you have no problem filling Battalions with, e.g., 2 Hive Tyrants or 2 Company Commanders or 2 pre-nerf Tau Commanders.
4. Other factions have much more flexibility in putting detachments together. For example, Craftworld Eldar can bring a Battalion with a Farseer and an Autarch. Guard can bring a Commander and a Primaris Psyker. Dark Eldar can't do this without losing Obsessions -- if you want Warriors and Wyches and Wracks, you're bringing 3 HQs minimum.

I think really only Necrons are in worse shape when it comes to having to bring HQs to bring other stuff and get CP.

The point cost on the HQs is fine, as Vipoid noted. It's utility that's the problem, and I like his solution.

Although if you do restrict it to <Kabal> units, there should really be an exception for at least Incubi.

It also might be a bit greedy, but I wouldn't mind seeing Alliance of Agony's stipulation that it be one from each sub-faction be removed. I don't like Wyches, but I'd be more than happy to kit out two different Archons. And I'm sure other players are in similar boats. And since Dark Eldar HQ functionality seems to be tied to their warlord abilities and relics (except for Haemonculi... they're actually kind of solid all on their own), it is a big opportunity cost to lose when GW kept going on about how their plan was to allow players to go all in on their preferred sub-factions while the actual rules very harshly penalize that.


For what it's worth, with how DE HQs are limited in their mobility, it really should be a big deal when one gets into close combat. With room for variation, Archons should eat characters and big game alive, Succubi should cut through hordes like a blender, and Haemonculi... should just keep doing what they're doing, really.

I know i'm behind but i just got my codex. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed but everything seems to be boosted. Shredders and blasters are better. Haywire might be ok-ish finally considering it's what d3 shots and got a points drop? Kinda feel bad after i tore off all those haywire now. I still think i'd prefer blasters to heat lances even with the points changes. You have to get insanely close for heat lance and str 6 even with ap 5 isn't so hot. I'd rather just spam the blasters. Maybe bikes could work with heat lances but i'd need to check.

Anyway there's still a lot to go through and all the choices makes this overwhelming. All things considered we're better in the things that used to need a boost. The things that got no boosts were pretty much good anyway (void raven aside from void raven missiles and dark lances). Lots of points decreases.

Yeah it could take a while figuring tactics out but it feels good so far.

So i was thinkin of running 5 warriors squads (with a venom each) and 2x5 scourges. Should i put blasters on warriors and shredders on scourges or vice versa?

(I dont think i need blasters on both, i have 3 blaster archons and 4 blasters in a reaver squad)

Reading it now and they look amazing. I especially am seeing that maybe mass poison might be good? That Serpent's kiss obsessions with an archon's venomblade, and the artefact pistol that are poison and also add 2 to wound rolls means archon can and will reliably hit and almost always wound!!! If you roll 1, obsession lets you reroll it, and on rolls of 2, weapons add 2 to it so total becomes 4 meaning you wound!! So I am digging it.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Eh, I know I'm resorting to the hated fluff argument, but I'd reserve it to the Kabal, because inter-faction leadership is never cemented with Drukhari. Even Vect everyone would happily murder if they could get away with it.

Hmm. What if it worked on <Kabal> and 'mercenary' units (Scourges, Incubi and Mandrakes)?

I'd hope they'd at least acknowledge the leadership of the guy who's paying them.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

I love this idea, because it would create parity with Swooping Hawk Autarchs, buuuuuut again I don't know if it would fit the fluff. Scourges have sort've inherently separated themselves from the rest of Drukhari politics.

Well, surely there's the possibility of some of them taking an interest and rising to the top (perhaps in a similar manner to Baron Sathonyx)?

Alternatively, it could simply be an Archon who believes that flying on his own wings is a better way to experience the battle than merely riding atop a transport. Hell, he could want to lead his own band of Scourges, descending on enemies like birds of prey.

I appreciate that these will likely be rare, but don't think it would be unreasonable to at least have that as an option.

 Cptskillet wrote:
Reading it now and they look amazing. I especially am seeing that maybe mass poison might be good? That Serpent's kiss obsessions with an archon's venomblade, and the artefact pistol that are poison and also add 2 to wound rolls means archon can and will reliably hit and almost always wound!!! If you roll 1, obsession lets you reroll it, and on rolls of 2, weapons add 2 to it so total becomes 4 meaning you wound!! So I am digging it.

Bear in mind that you don't get the reroll for artefacts. So you can't use it with Parasite's Kiss. Which is a shame, really.

I mean, Craftworld Eldar get Falchu's Wing as a relic, and that just gives flight and M12" straight up. That wouldn't be unreasonable to give to an Archon. Especially since, unlike the Craftworld codex, where almost all the relics are crap and there are only a couple that are pretty much auto-takes because everything else is so useless, Dark Eldar relics are generally pretty good and offer a wide variety of toys at a fair opportunity cost.

What type of builds do you guys think could reliably deal with flyrant spam?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What type of builds do you guys think could reliably deal with flyrant spam?

Theorycrafting against a dying build? If and when Hive Tyrants are limited to 3 and go up 20 points each?

If you have a tournament this week and GW keeps delaying the errata though, well, try to go second so he needs to deep all his Tyrants before you need to deep your units, which should be about 8 or 9 Ravagers. I'd also go with a maxed Shining Spear unit that you keep in a corner waiting for the Tyrants to come down, bubblewrapped by 3 suicidal Ranger units. You'll clean house when the Tyrants are all down, and all they'll be able to kill are your Rangers. Something along those lines. Minimum squads of Reapers in the corner with the 3 Eldar psykers wouldn't hurt either.

Edit: wrong post, sorry.

axisofentropy wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.

ok what page does it say that on?

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.

You should probably address the fact that the Ulthwe stratagem explicitly requires you to use it on an Ulthwe unit, whereas the Black Heart one has no such requirement, if you want anyone to find this persuasive.

Hmm yeah actually no rules are specifically written so that only Black Heart guys can activate it. I expect a FAQ to answer that, because I don't believe anyone will let you have the best stratagem of the codex with no Black Heart units in your army.

 Fafnir wrote:
I mean, Craftworld Eldar get Falchu's Wing as a relic, and that just gives flight and M12" straight up. That wouldn't be unreasonable to give to an Archon.

I'd rather have the option of actual scourge wings though - not just an artefact that's worse from the get-go.

I get that Eldar have that, but they also have access to proper wings and jetbikes alongside it.



Anyway, getting back to tactics, what are your thoughts on running Grotesques? I'd like to use a couple of squads in Raiders (with a character in each). Here's the thing - I only own 6 Grotesques. Do you think 3 per Raider will be enough, or should I try to get some more so that I can have 4 in each?

I'd go with 4, but even 3 can do stuff. I've tried footslogging them for the first time, a unit of 8. Along with 6 talos and urien who buffs their S, T and Ld. They soaked a lot of firepower and turn 3 assault was brutal.

Grotesques seem like an ideal candidate for the webway strike stratagem. They're hard to transport, they can't take much advantage of transports being open-topped, and they're really durable so don't mind being shot at if they fail their charge. 1 CP saves you 2 or 3 Raiders.

And as a unit they seem pretty solid. They're pretty durable vs everything, and will tend to draw the same anti-tank fire that your Ravagers are vulnerable to. They do okay damage too.

I put 6 in the webway yesterday and deep struck them turn 2. I seem to be pretty good at making those 9" charges as I pull it off a lot more often than I don't, Flesh Gauntlets for the Mortal Wounds are actually really good for hitting something T6 or better, Cleavers mulch anything T5 or less.

They're also surprisingly resiliant, they got flamed several times by Y'Varhas yet I only lost 4 all game, and the last one was to the Y'Vahra blowing up.

 Imateria wrote:
I put 6 in the webway yesterday and deep struck them turn 2. I seem to be pretty good at making those 9" charges as I pull it off a lot more often than I don't, Flesh Gauntlets for the Mortal Wounds are actually really good for hitting something T6 or better, Cleavers mulch anything T5 or less.

They're also surprisingly resiliant, they got flamed several times by Y'Varhas yet I only lost 4 all game, and the last one was to the Y'Vahra blowing up.

I hope you're not using the gauntlets as poison weapons still, because they're not anymore. It's kind of a "nerf/buff" because it makes grots worse against T6+ (unless you use the 2cp reroll wound strat) but better against elite infantry with invuln saves.

But yeah, as to their durability, it's top notch. I ran 5 in a game and they tanked an entire tau army minus two commanders. Ate probably 100 S5 AP- shots, I lost 1.

Just an FYI, you should be using the Flesh Gauntlets vs everything other than vehicles. A hit with the Gauntlets always produces an extra 1/6 of an unsaved wound, on average. A hit with the Cleaver produces an extra 1/36 of an unsaved wound per wound possibility (so 3/36 of an unsaved wound vs T5, 4/36 of an unsaved wound vs T3), assuming that you're getting value out of its AP at all. Take the free attack with the Cleaver but your main 3 with the Gauntlets.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Grotesques seem like an ideal candidate for the webway strike stratagem. They're hard to transport, they can't take much advantage of transports being open-topped, and they're really durable so don't mind being shot at if they fail their charge. 1 CP saves you 2 or 3 Raiders.

But if I transport the unit, then their Haemonculus is stuck at the back of the field twiddling his thumbs.

 vipoid wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Grotesques seem like an ideal candidate for the webway strike stratagem. They're hard to transport, they can't take much advantage of transports being open-topped, and they're really durable so don't mind being shot at if they fail their charge. 1 CP saves you 2 or 3 Raiders.

But if I transport the unit, then their Haemonculus is stuck at the back of the field twiddling his thumbs.

The haemonculus with Grotesques is actually the one unit where the transport problem doesn't really matter. You can fit a haemie in with 4 grotesques no problem (I'd also pop a Lhamean in there if you have a Court, since A) lhameans are busted, and B) she's a good mook to die if the transport goes pop.

Yet another reason why the haemonculus just kind of floats around in his own little world, caring much less about the transport issue than anyone else.

I suppose with Lhameans being so broken the archon doesn't really care either. We'll see if their 4+ to cause a mortal wound nonsense survives the 2-week FAQ I suppose, but if it does, I've definitely solved the question of what I transport along with my archon.

The succubus is really the only one in my eyes who doesn't have a good, clear-cut "this is what you do" solution. She wants to be getting into combat at the same time as units that are much, much faster than her, and she just has no way to do that currently. I suppose you could webway her in, but that's a pretty exorbitant cost just to get her in the neighborhood while your reavers hit the enemy lines.

the_scotsman wrote:

The haemonculus with Grotesques is actually the one unit where the transport problem doesn't really matter. You can fit a haemie in with 4 grotesques no problem (I'd also pop a Lhamean in there if you have a Court, since A) lhameans are busted, and B) she's a good mook to die if the transport goes pop.

I actually meant transporting the Grotesques via WWP.

Sorry, I realise now my language was poorly chosen.

I like the idea of using Lhamaeans to take up spare transport slots, though.

the_scotsman wrote:

I suppose with Lhameans being so broken the archon doesn't really care either. We'll see if their 4+ to cause a mortal wound nonsense survives the 2-week FAQ I suppose, but if it does, I've definitely solved the question of what I transport along with my archon.

Well, they've still only got 2 attacks, so I can't imagine they'll be that broken.

the_scotsman wrote:

The succubus is really the only one in my eyes who doesn't have a good, clear-cut "this is what you do" solution. She wants to be getting into combat at the same time as units that are much, much faster than her, and she just has no way to do that currently. I suppose you could webway her in, but that's a pretty exorbitant cost just to get her in the neighborhood while your reavers hit the enemy lines.

Yeah, this is one of the things I'm struggling with in terms of including Wych detachments in my army.

 vipoid wrote:

But if I transport the unit, then their Haemonculus is stuck at the back of the field twiddling his thumbs.

The Haemonculus can get there however you would ordinarily get him there. Even if he's walking he can be a ways across the table on turn 1, and you can bring down the Grots so that 1 is within 6" of him and then keep it there even if they make their charge. If you're putting them in a Raider, you're not going to be charging anything until turn 2 anyway, so this is a clear win.

Edit: Say your Haemie advances only 1" so he's 8" up the field. You can put down a Grot so that it's just within 6" of him. Its base is more than 1.5" across. The next Grot can be 2" away from that one, and so the front of its base can still be 19" ahead of your deployment zone. Meanwhile if you want more than a handful of Grots you're going to have the problem that some of them are riding in a transport without a Haemie, and if one gets shot down you're going to have some Grots without an aura.

They have 2 attacks. In what is almost certainly going to be the most popular Kabal, they hit nearly 100% of the time (rerollable 2s if near an archon, starting turn 2 with the Black Heart bonus), and then they cause a mortal wound on a 4+, so an average of about .9 MWs/Lhaeman.

They are a single model unit, 3 wounds, 5+ save 6++, which means you have to dedicate at least some fire to kill them, but because they're a one-model unit you're going to be overkilling them extremely often.

And theyre FIFTEEN points.

The only thing htat keeps them from being supremely broken to "I'm making a whole army of these" level is the fact that you can only have 4 per detachment.

Entire squads of snipers wish they had the mortal wound output of one fifteen point lhamean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The "competitive wych detachment" if people do wyches in their competitive lists is almost certainly going to just be an outrider of Red Grief with Reavers and Scourges. Wyches are decent now, but I don't think they're good enough to carve out a slot amidst Ynnari/eldar soup.

If you asked me what we're going to see change with Aeldari lists with the DE codex, I'd tell you:

-3 Ravager+Writ Archon Black Heart spearhead will be in every list until Ravagers get nerfed. That detachment provides you so much utility it's ridiculous, and unlocks all DE strats for your Ynnari detachment, so you can have things like triple-attacking Ynnari Strife wyches and character sniping Dark Creed Reapers tacked into your Ynnari. Also, Agents of Vect is going to be very, very real paired with horde-clearing alpha strike.

-I think someone really skilled is going to pull out an Eldar soup freakshow list and absolutely demolish a character/horde reliant meta in a couple tournaments. One of the usual suspects is going to use it to get top three and people will start having to build to counter it. one Dark Creed detachment, one Black Heart detachment, one Alaitoc detachment can make a seriously brutal freakshow list with tons of CP that barely gives up any combat ability compared to the current standard eldar list, and all it's going to take is some meta where you have a vital character amongst some big horde block where a list like this is going to absolutely rock socks.

-Red Grief outrider with reavers and scourges will probably make an appearance. Reavers make a good "hold them down" while the rest of your eldar soup list can be tailored towards "and I'll kick."

-Standard Prophets of Flesh coven focused heavily on grots with urien and wracks for CP, maybe some Taloi. Problem is, not a good matchup vs the horde meta. I think if we see covens with the horde meta still in place, it'll be in a freakshow where mass LD debuffs will supplement their anti-horde capabilities.

vipoid wrote:

Hmm. What if it worked on <Kabal> and 'mercenary' units (Scourges, Incubi and Mandrakes)?

I'd hope they'd at least acknowledge the leadership of the guy who's paying them.

See, that I definitely think should be the case. In general the fact that merc units get like 0 buffs is annoying.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:
I mean, Craftworld Eldar get Falchu's Wing as a relic, and that just gives flight and M12" straight up. That wouldn't be unreasonable to give to an Archon. Especially since, unlike the Craftworld codex, where almost all the relics are crap and there are only a couple that are pretty much auto-takes because everything else is so useless, Dark Eldar relics are generally pretty good and offer a wide variety of toys at a fair opportunity cost.

For a second I thought you were saying our relics are crap and I was about to be all "fite me"

I think we are mostly going to see flayed skull - transport/shuriken cannon spam. Probably a blackheart spearhead with ravagers just so you can use agents of vect as well.

Only issue I see is - archons are still quite useless. Incubi are useless. Scourges are also useless. Some pretty iconic units not getting any love...I just don't get it.