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 Ketara wrote:

Personally, I don't consider myself feminist, I disagree with many of their principles and methods if not with the final goal.

See, I find it good to make a distinction between being a 'feminist' (someone who believes women should have equal rights, opportunities, and treatment to their male counterparts), and being one of the thirty odd University based extreme 'Feminazis' who actually espouse stuff about female superiority, and the horde of 15 year oldTumblrinas who blow things up to ridiculous proportions because they're in a little bubble and have a poor understanding of most of the concepts they actually talk about (which is fine, we all start somewhere).

Nah, I don't consider myself feminist not because I think all feminists are feminazis that hate men and want to cut our dicks off (I know they aren't) but because I disagree with how they apply the marxist theory (And I use this as an academical term, not a buzzword) to their sociological analisis.
I don't disagree with the fact that sexism exist, or with a future of equallity both legal and real. But I disagree with the explanation they give for the origin of that inequality and the solutions they propose to fix it.

Of course, it could be there some feminist theories I could agree with, but of the more "general" feminist writers, both old and new and I have read, I haven't encounter one like that.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
My wife once stopped into the GW store to pick up an order for me. She didn't feel harassed or anything, but she could feel the mood shift when she walked in. It was clear the employee wasn't used to female customers. (She's not exactly sensitive about that stuff either.)

OTOH, my local GW has a shopgirl running the store the last couple times I've gone to pick up a MTO.

I certainly hope that she wasn't oppressed by my masculine presence, despite my best efforts to be polite during the 90 seconds it took to complete the pickup.

I think that one depends on the store clientele and owner. I've seen both in action. An increased background male interest doesn't equate to any form of sexism either, whether it makes the woman in question uncomfortable or not.

Caveats all included, I've otherwise definitely seen some blokes pull some cringeworthy crap and scare girls out of game stores before. I suspect it happens in any male dominated social scene to an extent, be it playing wargames or snooker.

 Ouze wrote:
Wow. So, there was a sub-tangent that started in the UK, Polonius said "wait, are we saying sexism doesn't happen in society at large?", was asked for cites, provided them, and then they were all dismissed because they weren't specifically for the UK? Despite that not being what was asked for?

That is literally the lamest gak I think I've ever seen on this forum.

I just got him and someone else mixed up, the original comment was that its rife in the UK, to which I disagree, then Pol chimed in and i got them mixed up, its Ketara that made the asersion the sexism is rampant in the UK based on circumstantial evidence and I wanted him to prove it, I should pay more attention sorry.

Alright, that's fair enough.

OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

Just throwing it out here and to bring it back on topic, this discussion we're having is another reason people don't like Sarkeesian. She is absolutely unwilling to have her ideas challenged or have any for of discussion outside of "I'm right, if you disagree you're basically harassing me."

This discussion has been surprisingly civil, if off topic. Them again I have Peregrine ignored so maybe I'm missing something.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

Does that really happen?

The only skin I ever see at AdeptiCon is some dude’s ass crack.

 kronk wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

Does that really happen?

The only skin I ever see at AdeptiCon is some dude’s ass crack.

Is that sexual harrassment to gay men? (JOKE!)

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

Eh. Depends on the level of exposure. If she's literally not wearing a top, perhaps, in the same way that a man who had no underwear/trousers would be. Otherwise, showing top boob is no more harassment than wearing a pair of shorts.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

This actually happened in a poker tournament. One female competitor was wearing a very low cut top and took the lead. In response one of the male competitors start making crying baby noises to trigger her body into a postpartum breastfeeding reflex to make her lactate and she lost her lead. It was weird.

https://www.pokertube.com/video/celebrity-poker-showdown-s05-ep02--part-2

Around 22mins.

What the actual feth?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

This actually happened in a poker tournament. One female competitor was wearing a very low cut top and took the lead. In response one of the male competitors start making crying baby noises to trigger her body into a postpartum breastfeeding reflex to make her lactate and she lost her lead. It was weird.

https://www.pokertube.com/video/celebrity-poker-showdown-s05-ep02--part-2

Around 22mins.

NIIIIICE!

 kronk wrote:
What the actual feth?

Bet WAAC Warhammer players don't look so bad now.

text removed.

Reds8n

 Sim-Life wrote:

 kronk wrote:
What the actual feth?

Bet WAAC Warhammer players don't look so bad now.

Looks in mirror.

Still got it, baby!

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I'm not interested in 'stories'. I'm interested in evidence. Anyone can make up a story. Especially narcissistic girls that make it seem like their 'problem' is thinly-veiled gloating about how pretty they think they are.

Yeahhhh.....That's sexism right there. The automatic belief/assumption/reaction, with no further information, that a woman has to be making up a story about people behaving in an unpleasant sexist ways towards them; in order to stroke their own egos. It couldn't be that these things happen. Nonono. They have to be lying. Those damn narcissistic women!

That's on top of the bizare idea that the way a girl would try and compliment herself would be to show you the dick pics she gets sent, or confide in you about the various stalkers, or sexual assault, or anything of that nature. I mean, what the feth man?

Your response reminds me of this video. It's clearly how you think the world works.




I don't doubt for one minute your answer is going to be something along the lines of 'I didn't say that they were ALL narcissistic girls' or something of that nature. But maybe just stop and step back a second. Your first initial instinctual reaction, when someone mentioned that virtually all the girls he knows (including his own girlfriend) go through varying levels of sexism and harassment, was to say 'Well, anything can make stuff up, especially narcissistic girls! I want evidence, not stories!'

I mean, seriously man. What does that say about you?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, it goes both ways, with some women wearing low-cut tops to distract their opponent... Should a male opponent complain that he's being harassed by sight of ample decolletage before him?

This actually happened in a poker tournament. One female competitor was wearing a very low cut top and took the lead. In response one of the male competitors start making crying baby noises to trigger her body into a postpartum breastfeeding reflex to make her lactate and she lost her lead. It was weird.

https://www.pokertube.com/video/celebrity-poker-showdown-s05-ep02--part-2

Around 22mins.

NIIIIICE!

I had a buddy of mine - quite a good looking guy - wear very, um, tight shorts that left little to the imagination to a tournament at our FLGS store. Not that I'm complaining, mind - just saying that girls aren't the only ones who do it.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Wait, are people here actually arguing that there is no sexism against women in society at large?

This stuff is pretty well documented. There are studies, literally hundreds of high profile cases in the media, and plenty of personal stories.

No, and personal stories aren't proof. Otherwise the Illuminati, bigfoot, and aliens are a bigger concern than some dude slapping a woman on the ass.

I mean, I'm sure you will reject all evidence provided, but I gave a pretty big list earlier. repeated for your convenience:

https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/newsroom/newsn/2700/new-research-proves-gender-bias-extraordinarily-prevalent-in-stem-careers

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/12/14/gender-discrimination-comes-in-many-forms-for-todays-working-women/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-pay-gap-is-way-too-entrenched-to-be-solved-by-women-alone/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/half-women-stem-have-experienced-gender-discrimination-work-study-finds-n836116

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/10/half-of-women-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-at-work-tuc-study-everyday-sexism

https://www.nsopw.gov/(X(1)S(lcnxya1pq1atwvcxw420muju))/en-US/Education/FactsStatistics?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1#reference (A study that estimates that 18% of American women have been raped at some point in their life)

[

 Polonius wrote:
My wife once stopped into the GW store to pick up an order for me. She didn't feel harassed or anything, but she could feel the mood shift when she walked in. It was clear the employee wasn't used to female customers. (She's not exactly sensitive about that stuff either.)

Oh Lord the Fething HORROR. People were quiet when a stranger walked in. Tell her to put on her Burqua and protect her from this evil.

I was just sharing a story man. But yes, people acting awkward and weird around you, because of your gender, is certainly a sign of inequality. (And yes, there are certainly places where the staff will act weird if a man walks in.)

As sure as the sky is blue and the grass is green, I can assure you- you aren't missing anything of value or substance. Just pretend someone spewed the most irrational identity politics and blamed the right wing for something every now and then, it's about the same.

I think if you read this thread, you'll see that you have relentlessly brought up identity politics, and partisan politics, and not too many other people have.

 kronk wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Bet WAAC Warhammer players don't look so bad now.

Looks in mirror.

Still got it, baby!

Oh, really?

 Polonius wrote:
[
I was just sharing a story man. But yes, people acting awkward and weird around you, because of your gender, is certainly a sign of inequality. (And yes, there are certainly places where the staff will act weird if a man walks in.)

Seems pretty equal to me then.

If people do not think Sarkesian is not going to cause trouble in the community then just look at this thread - and all this is before she has had chance to spew her poison.
NOTHING good can come from letting this spiteful, manipulating, lying and toxic person anywhere near the borders of the hobby, let alone inviting the monster into the heart of it. Better to revoke her invitation and risk the inevitable but far less damaging backlash than to have her and her horde of followers gain a foothold and start to push in.

I'm pretty sure Kronk's comments about gaming and sideboob are the best things to come out of this thread so far. Then again Peregrine showed up so that was pretty comical too.

Also, Kirk.

I mean, seriously man. What does that say about you?

It says he is not willing to take some random fellas word for it on the internet, you can try to turn it into something else but that is the long and short of it, and given that you still have not supplied the requested proof that sexism is as common and rampant as you implied in the UK, then I can see why he wouldn’t take your word for it.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Red Weasel wrote:
How did she ruin an industry? As far as I can tell the only thing that has changed is that there are more whining man babies than I thought.

What exactly do you fear will happen? More armor on the Sisters?

She gave people an excuse to stop having actual discussions. If you disagreed with her poorly researched and terrible videos, you were labeled a misogynist and, likely, banned from whatever community you made the mistake of dissenting in. It really turned gamers against each other as battle lines were drawn and people just started attacking each other over nothing. She literally turned the term "gamer" from a positive to a negative by accusing all the gamers of being mouth breathing perverts and harassers.

I have no problems with one sharing their opinions about whatever they have opinions about, but I think you should be prepared to defend them - especially when those opinions are about other people. They deserve a chance to face their accuser, but instead, after being accused, they were lynched and banished without recourse. That's just not right.

And yeah, changing the design and lore of the Sisters to appease a dogmatic cult with a repressed sense of morality most people don't share seems like a bad thing. It doesn't to you?

No. 'gamer' has been a semi derogatory term for players in certain sports/games for more than a decade, sports that literally have nothing to do with tabletop anything.

 master of ordinance wrote:
If people do not think Sarkesian is not going to cause trouble in the community then just look at this thread - and all this is before she has had chance to spew her poison.
NOTHING good can come from letting this spiteful, manipulating, lying and toxic person anywhere near the borders of the hobby, let alone inviting the monster into the heart of it. Better to revoke her invitation and risk the inevitable but far less damaging backlash than to have her and her horde of followers gain a foothold and start to push in.

Whoa there Pedro. Whoa.

She’s done nothing in this thread. Not a comment, not a single exalt.

Who’s causing the waves here? People with a complaint (justified or not, I don’t care) against her, saying stuff she’s not present to defend.

It ain’t her cause the problem. Not right here. Not right now.

 Polonius wrote:


I was just sharing a story man. But yes, people acting awkward and weird around you, because of your gender, is certainly a sign of inequality. (And yes, there are certainly places where the staff will act weird if a man walks in.)

Yes. But this is called being socially awkward, or having social anxiety.
I don't see how having a legitimate psychological problem that has nothing to do with harassment, sexism, or inequality has to do with those things at all.
It might 'just be a story' but look at what you're trying to imply by telling us 'a story'.

Since when does having social anxiety equate to being sexist? Or treating the opposite gender with inequality?
Social awkwardness can lead to 'feeling a weird' vibe, but it's far from not being treated as an equal.

 Ghool wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


I was just sharing a story man. But yes, people acting awkward and weird around you, because of your gender, is certainly a sign of inequality. (And yes, there are certainly places where the staff will act weird if a man walks in.)

Yes. But this is called being socially awkward, or having social anxiety.
I don't see how having a legitimate psychological problem that has nothing to do with harassment, sexism, or inequality has to do with those things at all.
It might 'just be a story' but look at what you're trying to imply by telling us 'a story'.

Since when does having social anxiety equate to being sexist? Or treating the opposite gender with inequality?
Social awkwardness can lead to 'feeling a weird' vibe, but it's far from not being treated as an equal.

Which is really the crux of why I dislike that politics is infecting the hobby, right or left I don’t care, where as before all that we would have seen is a socially awkward nerd trying badly to ... not be, now that exact same situation would be seen in a different light, calling a person with social anxiety a creepy stalker rather than ... awkward.

 Ghool wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


I was just sharing a story man. But yes, people acting awkward and weird around you, because of your gender, is certainly a sign of inequality. (And yes, there are certainly places where the staff will act weird if a man walks in.)

Yes. But this is called being socially awkward, or having social anxiety.
I don't see how having a legitimate psychological problem that has nothing to do with harassment, sexism, or inequality has to do with those things at all.
It might 'just be a story' but look at what you're trying to imply by telling us 'a story'.

Since when does having social anxiety equate to being sexist? Or treating the opposite gender with inequality?
Social awkwardness can lead to 'feeling a weird' vibe, but it's far from not being treated as an equal.

Be careful how you're drawing definitions. Not all unequal treatment is caused by social anxiety/awkwardness (and I think you know that, but were being melodramatic). Writing *all* mistreatment off as social anxiety is not only unfair to people with decently-managed anxiety, but downplays the actual mistreatment due to sexism when it does happen.

Do you act differently around women?

Then anxiety or not, and benign as it may be, that’s pretty sexist, because you’re adjusting your behaviour based on gender.

And helping you out is part of feminism. It’s not ‘burn all the mens’, but ‘bring about the end of toxic masculinity,

What do I mean by toxic masculinity? The concept that if you don’t do X, look like Y and behave like Z, you’re somehow not a ‘proper’ man.

And I’m speaking as a well built (if slightly tubby) 6’2” Horror with a thick head of hair and no problem growing a beard. I’ve never had to work on this. I simply am. Indeed, I’d go so far as to say that barring a short period of brainless racism when I moved from Scotland to England, I’ve never encountered actual, genuine discrimination. I can walk down the road, any time of day or night, and be left alone. I can happily square up to someone, and have them respect me for it - even though I’m really a tremendous wuss and wimp. Indeed, I’m a tall, fairly handsome, well built, heterosexual white bloke in my native country with a good career going. There’s nobody silently judging or trying to second guess me. I’ve never had to justify myself or fight against a prejudice.

I also have social anxiety, believe it or not. And I’m not about to Misery Measure, because we are who we are. Yours affects you in a different way than mine does me.

But if you feel anxious because you’re not some chiselled, brainless hunk you see on your telly getting all the girls - that’s toxic masculinity. And if that’s the case, you’re a victim, not a perpetrator or propagator.

Look at Male/female suicide rates in the Western World. Here’s a hint, Young Men as disproportionately more likely to kill themselves. That’s a genuine statistical truth. Go google it, you’ll find plenty.

Men are, societally, discouraged from speaking about their feelings, worries, woes and stress. It tends to be seen as non-masculine, a weakness. And it’s a fething outrage.

Now, here’s a confession for you. New Year, 2014, I was raped. By a woman. She kind of attached herself to me in the pub, and like a drunken fool, she came back to my hotel room. Not because I wanted to shag her, but because she had nowhere else to go. She came on to me, I rebuffed her. Sadly, the morning wood fairy paid me a visit, and I awoke to her riding the giggle stick without protection. Now, me? As much as I had the sense to go get myself checked out ASAP (all clear, thankfully), but thanks to Toxic Masculinity, I didn’t feel able to report it to the Police. Not because I was afraid they wouldn’t believe me - but because I feared a counter accusation. As mentioned, I’m 6’2”and fairly well built. She was no more than 5’2”. If there was a counter accusation? I’d risk losing everything.

That’s not right. And that’s something feminism also seeks to address.

And here’s a fun fact for you! Under English Law (at least at the time, it may have changed since, but I don’t think it has), she didn’t, legally speaking rape me. It’s instead defined as ‘sexual assault’....see what I mean about Toxic Masculinity? Because that leads into societal and largely indoctrinated sexism.

Formosa wrote:
It says he is not willing to take some random fellas word for it on the internet, you can try to turn it into something else but that is the long and short of it, and given that you still have not supplied the requested proof that sexism is as common and rampant as you implied in the UK, then I can see why he wouldn’t take your word for it.

You're literally shouting up for someone whose first response to hearing about sexual harassment was 'WELL WHAT ABOUT THOSE LYING VAIN CHICKS, EH?' And yet you're still claiming sexual discrimination and harassment isn't common.

Formosa. You are the evidence.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Do you act differently around women?...

Have an exalt. You know what's up.