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Tygre wrote:
I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.

So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.

I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

This still would mean a harlequin army can nuke you turn one or two, with squads armed up to their noses with fusion pistols. Only with 1000pts being played, they would be wipping out entire armies, if those aren't horde or have execive numbers of chaff units.

Karol wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.

So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.

I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

This still would mean a harlequin army can nuke you turn one or two, with squads armed up to their noses with fusion pistols. Only with 1000pts being played, they would be wipping out entire armies, if those aren't horde or have execive numbers of chaff units.

5 fusion clowns in a clown car is I believe 175pts, assuming you also have a troupe master and a shadowseer in there, and maybe a Solitaire or something to just use up the remaining points, you'll have to survive 20 fusion shots total.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The smaller board size has indeed turned out to be the problem people were afraid of.

I thought the board sizes were a minimum rather than a requirement.

Nurglitch wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The smaller board size has indeed turned out to be the problem people were afraid of.

I thought the board sizes were a minimum rather than a requirement.

I've yet to see a game actually played on a smaller board yet but COVID has GTs and events out of wack locally.

AFAIK most stores / my own table / most locals still use 6x4 for 1750-2k

Local GW has 4x4s mostly

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Unless a new supplement comes along, and bar a very small amount of required multi-part kits and character options, the space marine model line is now complete.

Other than the above, and maybe the odd SC character update and maybe a new general start collecting box, marine releases are done till the end of 2022 at the earliest.

I get the frustration, but this cash cow indirectly supports other less financially lucrative products.

Soon they will release Heavy int and other models, so we are far away from done

 kodos wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

40k is designed to be played with 500-1000 points, they just made 2000 points standard while decreasing the points per models over time to sell more models but the rules do not really support it because their basic design is with less models in mind

I hear this sentiment sometimes but don't see anything to really indicate it to be true. Do you have any evidence backing this (interviews with designers for example)?

Rihgu wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

40k is designed to be played with 500-1000 points, they just made 2000 points standard while decreasing the points per models over time to sell more models but the rules do not really support it because their basic design is with less models in mind

I hear this sentiment sometimes but don't see anything to really indicate it to be true. Do you have any evidence backing this (interviews with designers for example)?

the game by design is on a "per model" basis, and basic rules that are designed to have each individual model shoot, wound, saves, before the next starts doing it are limited by default to lower amounts of models until it gets tricky
also that individual equippment is very important is going into that direction

comparing the "core" rules of Infintiy, 40k and Warpath, and even without knowing the size the game wants to be you see a trend on what size the game is aming for

as reference from GW we have the rules from previous editions with 1500 points as standard that were less detailed on the individual models and also games based on the 40k rules that are aiming at 1000 points (as from the designers)

yet of GW official say that their rules are made to be played at 2000 points with that amount of models on the table, I can't take them serious

In other words, Rihgu - no.

 InVerno wrote:

Soon they will release Heavy int and other models, so we are far away from done

Heavy Intercessor and the Captain that got included with them in Pariah Nexus are the last of the models we know about.

So unless you know something the rest of us don't...yeah, it's done.

Totally down for a redux of the early supplements and a rebox of some 'iconic units' ala Hounds of Morkai for them though. Raven Guard getting an Eliminator x Moritat unit would be delightful.

I've mentioned a few times in other threads that realistically, all general primaris marines need kit wise to flesh them out now are:

*They have a unit in the fluff called hell furys, it stands to reason this will be made at some point.
*A jump pack melee unit but it's not fully needed... It would just be nice to have the option.
*Proper Primaris Terminators
*Proper Primaris Land Raider equivalent (Repulsor is not it)

A few niche/unique character set ups, namely the alternate graves captain build from dark imperium etc.

All of the above can wait until 10th edition really though.

The rest of marines are chapter specific, and include plenty of special characters, and whilst it would be nice to see them upgraded, honestly, get Eldar and Guard sorted before touching any of this.

I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.

Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.

Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.

I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.

Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....

...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.

...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.

Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.

I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.

There's likely not enough Ultramarine players to make a Marneus Calgar+Honor Guard kit viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
There's likely not enough Space Wolf players to make the SKU for the "Hounds of Morkai" bundle viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.

Nope. You goons kept up this nonsense for so long about "Raven Guard are Jump Packs!!!11!!!" that this is what you deserve. No Jump Pack melee for anyone but Raven Guard.

Also it's super weird how the assumption seems to be that I'm arguing this to be a 5 man unit or whatever. I specifically called out Calgar's bodyguard for a reason. A two model kit that builds Shrike's Talons or a Raven Guard specific Lieutenant duo option would be aces.

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.

Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.

I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.

There's likely not enough Ultramarine players to make a Marneus Calgar+Honor Guard kit viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
There's likely not enough Space Wolf players to make the SKU for the "Hounds of Morkai" bundle viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.

Nope. You goons kept up this nonsense for so long about "Raven Guard are Jump Packs!!!11!!!" that this is what you deserve. No Jump Pack melee for anyone but Raven Guard.

I might have seen more UM armies is one local meta than I've seen RG armies in my life. Likewise Space Wolves. Seen a few UM counts-as RG though, lol.

Blood Angels are also "The Jump Pack Marines" . . . and also probably more popular.

Nope, sorry. Blood Angels are the ragemarines. Them's the rules yo.

Also, lol @ you completely torpedoing your own point. "I've seen more UM armies in one local meta than I've seen RG armies in my life"...followed by "Seen a few UM counts-as RG though".

Raven Guard have not really had their own rules or characters for all that long. Prior to Shrike's addition? They had rules but nothing that was distinctively Raven Guard for models or theme beyond "Sneaky Marines in black".

More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.

My first army ever were Raven Guard marines, got a box of assault marines and a captain with lightening claws to add to my Maccrage Marines.

And then I realized that if everyone plays space marines there's no narrative depth to the game and I dropped marines forever and started up a Tau army.

Tygre wrote:
I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.

So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.

I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?

Smaller games with finer grained rules for every table size, preferably 8x4 a la 2nd edition imho.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.

Still lends itself to my point though, doesn't it?

Supposed "Raven Guard" players for a time used Blood Angels rules, because "they're totes assaulty bruh!" while others used the Raptors rules from FW, that better exemplified the way Raven Guard were always described...but now we're stuck in a feedback loop of GW reinforcing that garbage interpretation of "melee Raven Guard!".

So lean into it. Give Raven Guard the only melee Omnis equipped Honor Guard/Lieutenants in the game. Blood Angels can get Inceptors or Gravis, who cares it's Blood Angels.

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....

...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.

...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.

The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.

Still lends itself to my point though, doesn't it?

Supposed "Raven Guard" players for a time used Blood Angels rules, because "they're totes assaulty bruh!" while others used the Raptors rules from FW, that better exemplified the way Raven Guard were always described...but now we're stuck in a feedback loop of GW reinforcing that garbage interpretation of "melee Raven Guard!".

So lean into it. Give Raven Guard the only melee Omnis equipped Honor Guard/Lieutenants in the game. Blood Angels can get Inceptors or Gravis, who cares it's Blood Angels.

TBH I'm confused by your general attitude of "I don't like it so burn it all down and embrace it".

Nurglitch wrote:

Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....

...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.

...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.

The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.

Nope. And those are pistols, not auto cannons...

Because they had a chance to do something distinct and finally solidify Raven Guard conceptually...and they abandoned it to just do Shrike Mark II.


Fun fact: do you know the actual name of the Bolt Sniper Rifle that the Eliminators have, per the Shadowspear booklet? No?
It's the Shrike pattern Bolt Sniper Rifle. Apparently he worked with Cawl to make that happen...and instead we just get Emo Wolverines again.

Once again:
I'm saying do this as a bodyguard unit for Shrike and a special Lieutenant option for Raven Guard. You lot get everything Raven Guard have ever gotten. Give some frigging respect to one of the few Chapter Masters on the actual field at this point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.

Still lends itself to my point though, doesn't it?

Not really, no. More people collect UM. Counts-as is specifically people NOT collecting RG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....

...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.

...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.

The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.

Assault Marines/Vanguard with two pistols have been around since RT. Inceptors don't bring anything to that other than the lack of other options and uglier models, imo.

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.

Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.

I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.

There's likely not enough Ultramarine players to make a Marneus Calgar+Honor Guard kit viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
There's likely not enough Space Wolf players to make the SKU for the "Hounds of Morkai" bundle viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.

GW & reality (but most importantly GW...) disagrees with you concerning the #s of UM & SW players.

Space Wolves and Ultramarines have had how many starter sets between them?

Raven Guard's one "claim to fame" set was Shadow Force Solaq, a horribly priced and kitted "battle half" boxed set that had a model headlining it that looked like a rejected Ultramarines sculpt. Hell, until the Primaris upgrade pack the Raven Guard did not even have an easily available transfer sheet.

But hey. We can keep pretending that Space Wolves really merited their own unique Phobos unit before Raven Guard did. Cause I guess that's a thing, eh?

It is a thing. Space Wolves have consistently sold well since RT, and had the first codex of second edition.

Raven Guard did and _do_ still get a 'Who?' response from people.
There isn't even a pretense of comparison between the big four chapters and the also-rans, even if ultras took a little bit of time to catch up to the party.
Imperial Fists are better known than RG, and they're completely out shown by their successors.

It's still happening.

They're not done.



It appears to be exclusive to a UK/EU-only model subscription service.

It appears to be exclusive to a UK/EU-only model subscription service.

Meh. As long as it doesn't get in the way of real release slots, the weird local subscription can do whatever it wants.