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Xenomancers wrote: Safe to say I can go back to complaining about marine being terrible again.
So Marines are still great? Good to know.
Umbros wrote: Cawl's reroll bubble is definitely gone
[* Citation required]
Tyel wrote: The Lancer's just got Squigbuggy problems.
Xeno inexplicably thinks it's the best thing ever?
I hate to break it to you. But thinking inside the box - has never gotten anyone anywhere but where they have already been. Helping people think outside the box is something I am usually going for. I get it amuses you to keep reiterating this idea about squiqq-buggies which at the time - were actually quite good and when combined with max smasha guns - literally just shoot your opponent off the table and make them come to you. I can assure you though - no one went out and bought max squigg buggies when half the internet thinks they are garbage - Pretty sure none of you clowns even own a squig buggy or tried it on the table - so just stop.
The lancer doesn't have the "squiggbuggy" problem. Except maybe the problem where it is overcosted by about 30% - Except the squigg buggy got that point drop...down to 100 points in 8th...ofc...none of you problem even knew that ether - to busy trying to make fun of me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 15:27:13
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
alextroy wrote: How about we not have a Ravager versus Lancer discussion in the Adeptus Mecahnicus thread?
We are having the lancer vs cognis ballistari discussion. Same firepower - 125 point difference. Now discuss how this is supposed to be a balanced game?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: The Squigbuggy has awful shooting for its points. That is, after its decrease. Before, it was even worse.
Str 6 ap-1 d3 damage is a bad profile 36"? Honestly don't even know there custom job...what is it? That is new to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 15:30:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
alextroy wrote: How about we not have a Ravager versus Lancer discussion in the Adeptus Mecahnicus thread?
We are having the lancer vs cognis ballistari discussion. Same firepower - 125 point difference. Now discuss how this is supposed to be a balanced game?
Oh cool, you've got the new points costs from the Ad Mech Codex? Do share, please.
Edit: The Squigbuggy (Boom Squig) gets 2.33 (Heavy Launcher)+.78 (Regular Launcher) hits at that profile, for right about 3 S6 AP-1 Dd3 hits. For 110 points. The rest of its guns are 12" or less.
For 98 points, you can get two Special Weapons Squads with Grenade Launchers, who will get the same number of hits at the same profile. The Squigbuggy is more durable against small arms, but vastly more vulnerable to anti-tank, and here's the thing. Special Weapons Squads are not good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 15:35:02
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
alextroy wrote: How about we not have a Ravager versus Lancer discussion in the Adeptus Mecahnicus thread?
We are having the lancer vs cognis ballistari discussion. Same firepower - 125 point difference. Now discuss how this is supposed to be a balanced game?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: The Squigbuggy has awful shooting for its points. That is, after its decrease. Before, it was even worse.
Str 6 ap-1 d3 damage is a bad profile 36"? Honestly don't even know there custom job...what is it? That is new to me.
Last we know a Dark Lance was 15 points and a base Ravager was 95, which gets it to 140. The Dark Lance did not increase in cost with the changes.
The TCLC was +20 over the AC. Now it is only +10 above. It seems likely that Ballistari could go up 10.
The thing is that the Ballistari only has 6 wounds and a 4+/6++. Two of them have a less than 10% chance to kill a Lancer.
Screen to show I did it right ( ignore names, i'm lazy ):
Spoiler:
Of course not dead doesn't mean useful, but there's a pretty decent buffer where it will still hit on 3s:
Spoiler:
And these things are so soft that small arms are a problem. 10 Bolt Rifles in Tactical can just about kill one. You must take into account how soft they are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 15:52:03
Yeah, they're fething paper thin, and they arent actually quite the same damage - the gladiator has +1 to hit and storm bolters.
But the whole point of this discussion is that the balistarii doesn't seem overpowered - the glancer is just overcosted. Like that's been the whole discussion. A balistarii is not OP compared to - for example - a ravager, or a tank commander, or a PBC, or a land speeder, or a doomstalker, or even a laspred - normal antitank vehicle units that are not massively overcosted that people might actually field in a game.
alextroy wrote: How about we not have a Ravager versus Lancer discussion in the Adeptus Mecahnicus thread?
We are having the lancer vs cognis ballistari discussion. Same firepower - 125 point difference. Now discuss how this is supposed to be a balanced game?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: The Squigbuggy has awful shooting for its points. That is, after its decrease. Before, it was even worse.
Str 6 ap-1 d3 damage is a bad profile 36"? Honestly don't even know there custom job...what is it? That is new to me.
Yeah, man, S6 AP-1 D3 is a fething terrible profile. When was the last time you saw someone fielding Guard/GSC grenade launchers?
It's bad vs marines because D3 is unreliable and AP-1 means they save most of the hits anyway, inefficient vs infantry becuase multidamage, and you can't use it against vehicles because it wounds on 5s.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 16:06:40
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I always liked them for the models, but on the table it was just a weaker version of a mortar that needs LoS. If they took away LoS from the grenade launcher I think that would be fun!
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, they're fething paper thin, and they arent actually quite the same damage - the gladiator has +1 to hit and storm bolters.
But the whole point of this discussion is that the balistarii doesn't seem overpowered - the glancer is just overcosted. Like that's been the whole discussion. A balistarii is not OP compared to - for example - a ravager, or a tank commander, or a PBC, or a land speeder, or a doomstalker, or even a laspred - normal antitank vehicle units that are not massively overcosted that people might actually field in a game.
Erm.. Gotta disagree with you on the quad las pred. Unless they pump the points up considerably each ironstrider is likely to come in at less than 1/2 a predator with ~3/4 of the firepower.
So baring a big increase in cost 2 Ironstriders will come in at, or below a quad las predator but offer around 40% more damage.
Yes, each has 4 Str 9 AP -3 shots. But those Ironstriders are doing D3+3 damage each, as opposed to the quad lascannons D6, and that makes a huge difference.
Personally I think the both predators are easily overcosted by 10 if not 20 points.
the_scotsman wrote: never change, xeno. I love it when I'm making the comparison between two units and going 'yeah, it looks like because the advantages between this 140pt unit and this 200pt unit are so small, the 200pt unit should really probably be closer to a 160pt, maybe 170pt unit.." and xeno comes in and goes
A HUNDRED POINTS OVERPRICED!!!!!111!!! MAKE THE GLANCER A ONE HUNDRED POINT TANK, GIVE IT THE SAME FIREPOWER AS A RAVAGER PLUS FREE SITUATIONAL ADVANTAGES FOR A FORTY PERCENT DISCOUNT OR MARINES ARE TRASH FOREVER!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, the glad valiant is 50pts more expensive but at least it has enough firepower to kill god. 11.4 wounds to a standard vehicle outside of melta range - its main problem is just that there aren't that many targets big enough to warrant taking it to one-shot them. I don't know how you honestly balance the Valiant, it's either going to be wildly undercosted if you get it down in the range of a unit of 4 eradicators or wildly overcosted if it can never kill something close to its price (as it is now).
I was refering the the repulsors with those points. The Gladiator variants should be more like 60-40 points less. I don't think the Lancer should be 100 points...That would just be silly. I did literally state the points range they should be in. Lancer 150 - Valliant being 50 points more than a lancer should be 200. That would be a decent place for them.
The main problem with the unit is it dies to easy...T8 offers very little protection. They treat t8 like it is T10...A 5++ goes a long way though and they pretty much toss that out for free.
Whoa, whoa, whoa Xeno. I agree the floaty Not-A-Predators and Not-A-Land Raiders are overpriced, but 200 PPM Valiants and 265 PPM Executioners might be a bit much. I'd knock 20 points off of the Gladiators and maybe 50 off of the Executioner, just because of how pitiful they look compared to real Astartes tanks.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, they're fething paper thin, and they arent actually quite the same damage - the gladiator has +1 to hit and storm bolters.
But the whole point of this discussion is that the balistarii doesn't seem overpowered - the glancer is just overcosted. Like that's been the whole discussion. A balistarii is not OP compared to - for example - a ravager, or a tank commander, or a PBC, or a land speeder, or a doomstalker, or even a laspred - normal antitank vehicle units that are not massively overcosted that people might actually field in a game.
Yeah, I think they got most vehicles right in their 9th edition updates, they just overpriced the Primaris tanks. They got the fw Astartes tanks mostly right though, except for Martial Legacy.
Why are you comparing the Ironstrider to T8 tanks? Surely the better comparison is something like an armoured sentinel?
Looks like you're paying 15pts extra for another lascannon shot and greater accuracy.
People don't want to pay 50pts for a sentinel. They only did when they could hit on 2s with a lascannon and Hunter killer missile then die. I don't see how ~65pts for the Ironstrider is OP in comparison
Abaddon303 wrote: Why are you comparing the Ironstrider to T8 tanks? Surely the better comparison is something like an armoured sentinel?
Looks like you're paying 15pts extra for another lascannon shot and greater accuracy.
People don't want to pay 50pts for a sentinel. They only did when they could hit on 2s with a lascannon and Hunter killer missile then die. I don't see how ~65pts for the Ironstrider is OP in comparison
I'm pretty sure ironstriders with the lascannon upgrade are more than 65pts. 75 or 85, I forget whether its a 10 or 20 point upgrade.
And they dont have the defenses of an armored sentinel , they have the defenses of a scout.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 17:06:17
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Abaddon303 wrote: Why are you comparing the Ironstrider to T8 tanks? Surely the better comparison is something like an armoured sentinel?
Looks like you're paying 15pts extra for another lascannon shot and greater accuracy.
People don't want to pay 50pts for a sentinel. They only did when they could hit on 2s with a lascannon and Hunter killer missile then die. I don't see how ~65pts for the Ironstrider is OP in comparison
I'm pretty sure ironstriders with the lascannon upgrade are more than 65pts. 75 or 85, I forget whether its a 10 or 20 point upgrade.
And they dont have the defenses of an armored sentinel , they have the defenses of a scout.
Toughness of an armored, but save of a scout, but with the 6++ probably on par with armored. 75 points at present with TCLC.
( Also, I find sentinels to be capable with the stuff from PA, lol, you know I would )
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 17:09:43
Aren't CWE War Walkers a better comparison? I'd say both options on the Ironstriders are markedly better than a WW. But the Brightlance seems likely to get a similar upgrade, and we'll have to see how the 6 shot Autocannon stacks up to their other guns once they have been revisited.
The regular rifles are very interesting to me and look pretty damn good.
If the Ironstrider is 75pts it's even less OP at 25pts more than a lascannon sentinel. I think I'd rather take 3 sentinels than 2 Ironstriders actually I'd have to do the comparison a little deeper.
I'm really not seeing what the problem is?
Slowroll wrote: Aren't CWE War Walkers a better comparison? I'd say both options on the Ironstriders are markedly better than a WW. But the Brightlance seems likely to get a similar upgrade, and we'll have to see how the 6 shot Autocannon stacks up to their other guns once they have been revisited.
The regular rifles are very interesting to me and look pretty damn good.
How they decide to point it and whether it gets Core or not will be very interesting to see.
While the weapon upgrades look very strong, GW does seem to be overcompensating for stats like that in a lot of new datasheets; the RepEx, Doom Scythe and Mephitic Blight Hauler being the most obvious examples of getting solid stat improvements in their weapons which are then massively overpriced and relegate the units to sitting on the shelf.
Charistoph wrote: Eh, it kind of is, though. If the units that were formerly Skitarii lose all their advantages, then combining them is a loss. It would be like Deathwing being no different from any other Terminator squad or Crusader Squads being dropped in favor of Tactical Squads because all these Chapters are now in Codex: Space Marines.
Though, just whining because they are combined is pointless. Complaining that your old units lost their flavor at the same time they were combined with another codex, though, is valid.
Except that a lot of codexs lost that sort of flavor in the ensuing years. It really wasn't because of the codex fusion but because a lot of dex's lost some degree of it in the crossover in that timeline. We're only getting some of it back now in 9th it seems.
Review the 4th Ed Codex: Black Templars and 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines and look at how much the Templars lost in what actually made the transition instead of just being overriden in a blanket fashion. Don't get me wrong a lot of design style changes happened between early 4th Ed and 6th Edition, but Templars were treated like a red-headed step child in the transition.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Having clearly foolishly started this tangent - I think you have to consider that the Ironstrider Lascannon is now confirmed at D3+3.
To my mind 3 BS4+ D6 damage lascannon shots compares rather badly with 4 BS3+ D3+3 damage lascannon shots (the latter is almost 3 times as much damage). But I guess its only a matter of time until all Lascannons are boosted.
Not sure what to think on the rifles. Its a big buff at range - rangers now handily outshoot Intercessors before buffs anyway. Heavy feels weird - but then there are plenty of minuses to hit, so you can potentially just jog and shoot all the same.
I'm just hoping that Ironstriders will get put into a double box going forward.
That pricetag of $55 is the biggest reason why I have more Onagers than I do Ironstriders. Onagers at least came with a dang squad of Skitarii and Techpriest Dominii if you went the Start Collecting route!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:02:02
Kanluwen wrote: I'm just hoping that Ironstriders will get put into a double box going forward.
That pricetag of $55 is the biggest reason why I have more Onagers than I do Ironstriders. Onagers at least came with a dang squad of Skitarii and Techpriest Dominii if you went the Start Collecting route!
Yea if Armigers can come two for $75 those should, too.
Could be one in the inevitable combat patrol - but that will probably only help new collectors.
Carnifex are only available in the Brood format of two now.
It's not guaranteed, but it is not impossible
I don't know what we'll get for a Combat Patrol if I'm going to be honest. The codex might be reengineering an actual, legitimate split between Skitarii and Cult units in regards to how they function. We could get something along the lines of the Drukhari set which was all Kabal themed or we could get something that mixes everything together.
I can say that if it's a "mix everything together"? It would be hilarious for them to add an Armiger in there. They've shown they are not afraid to do half-sized boxes in there(BA and DA each got half an Intercessor box while BA also had half an Infiltrator box), and an Armiger out of the gate would bring a massive load of "WTF?!" from observers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 19:24:45
Charistoph wrote: Eh, it kind of is, though. If the units that were formerly Skitarii lose all their advantages, then combining them is a loss. It would be like Deathwing being no different from any other Terminator squad or Crusader Squads being dropped in favor of Tactical Squads because all these Chapters are now in Codex: Space Marines.
Though, just whining because they are combined is pointless. Complaining that your old units lost their flavor at the same time they were combined with another codex, though, is valid.
Except that a lot of codexs lost that sort of flavor in the ensuing years. It really wasn't because of the codex fusion but because a lot of dex's lost some degree of it in the crossover in that timeline. We're only getting some of it back now in 9th it seems.
Review the 4th Ed Codex: Black Templars and 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines and look at how much the Templars lost in what actually made the transition instead of just being overriden in a blanket fashion. Don't get me wrong a lot of design style changes happened between early 4th Ed and 6th Edition, but Templars were treated like a red-headed step child in the transition.
They really didn't lose anything. Your Sword Brethren are just Vanguard. Get over it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Review the 4th Ed Codex: Black Templars and 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines and look at how much the Templars lost in what actually made the transition instead of just being overriden in a blanket fashion. Don't get me wrong a lot of design style changes happened between early 4th Ed and 6th Edition, but Templars were treated like a red-headed step child in the transition.
They really didn't lose anything. Your Sword Brethren are just Vanguard. Get over it.
Learn reading comprehension. Sword Brother squads didn't make the transition. Emperor's Champion did. Helbrecht did. Grimaldus did. Crusader squads didn't really change except getting an optional Sergeant.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Review the 4th Ed Codex: Black Templars and 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines and look at how much the Templars lost in what actually made the transition instead of just being overriden in a blanket fashion. Don't get me wrong a lot of design style changes happened between early 4th Ed and 6th Edition, but Templars were treated like a red-headed step child in the transition.
They really didn't lose anything. Your Sword Brethren are just Vanguard. Get over it.
Learn reading comprehension. Sword Brother squads didn't make the transition. Emperor's Champion did. Helbrecht did. Grimaldus did. Crusader squads didn't really change except getting an optional Sergeant.
damn thats so tough you have so few units and statlines to use in codex space marines to represent those Sword Brothers.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Review the 4th Ed Codex: Black Templars and 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines and look at how much the Templars lost in what actually made the transition instead of just being overriden in a blanket fashion. Don't get me wrong a lot of design style changes happened between early 4th Ed and 6th Edition, but Templars were treated like a red-headed step child in the transition.
They really didn't lose anything. Your Sword Brethren are just Vanguard. Get over it.
Learn reading comprehension. Sword Brother squads didn't make the transition. Emperor's Champion did. Helbrecht did. Grimaldus did. Crusader squads didn't really change except getting an optional Sergeant.
Emperors Champs are glorified Chapter/Company Champions and quite frankly could be removed too.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You do realize the primaris were made a good deal better than first born marines for a awhile before first borns were buffed yes ? You do realize that while primaris tanks may not be amazing they still end up better, mostly, than first born tanks yes ?
Would you care to quantify this statement?
Please use a Gladiator Reaper at 230 points against a TAC Razorback at 125.
You do realize that GW may be aware people all have monoliths who play necrons as they weren't a LoW before yes ?
I fail to see how this is relevant.
You do realize that Baneblades and Knights more so did have a large amount of time they were very good as choices run and Baneblades have been sold for a long time so far yes ?
CK are doing quite well. Baneblades would probably do fine as well right now if people just stopped worrying about the 3CP.
Are they always very good at it ? No but if they don't get the sales they want right off, best bet your bottom dollar they will make them tasty as soon as the next update for that models rules come out, typically. Some units oddly they seem content to not really entice people on with rules, like unless I missed it people weren't too thrilled with the ork buggies.
See...you're just arguing both sides of the coin so that you can't ever "be wrong".
Ork Buggies were decent. It's the community that decided they weren't good ( Squig Buggies mostly excluded ). Ork Buggies got a point drop and people still decided they weren't worth it. Now we see people using tons of buggies. Why? Because people decided to actually try them instead of listening to misguided community opinion.
What is or is not "good" is largely determined by how people view things not by how GW has balanced it. There have been the warping events from marines, Castellans, and Ynnari. You will claim these are as intended. I will claim that the issues surrounding are mistakes rooted in far more complex issues.
First, I did say it was " mostly " the case. I don't see people throwing up tons of first born tanks, I see many more running primaris this or that. Aside from some outliers, which is why I said mostly. The floaty predators I think were pretty well considered to be over costed but I'd still wonder how many people bought one or a few of them just because they were new, I'd imagine they sold enough even being crappy right now. I'd also go so far as to bet they won't stay bad though and those old kits that are over performing them will be drawn down. I'd think that wasn't the case if GW ruled first born could ride in primaris vehicles and vice versa. Oh and a Gladiator is more akin to a predator and not a razorback but nice deflection. Lets also compare a rhino to a leman russ, what a value !
They obviously didn't think many people would rush out to buy an over costed monolith so they really didn't care what rules they gave it. Those that had to have it will and would and others well they already had plenty of old monoliths yet. Yet again, it will come back around and monoliths will be amazing and LoW won't feel so bad, same as they hadn't earlier in 8th.
You obviously don't run, or haven't had a baneblade run against you. They would not be just fine if taken and any actual guard player would back me up on that. The cp cost is just one issue, also it is over costed by a good amount and not nearly as survivable as it would need to be. It is not a good choice. Could you take it and win ? Sure, but you are taking it for flavor and not for victory.
The more complex issues are GW needs to play and understand their own game more or people need to defend their poor work less or a combination of the two. Eventually though you do have to see too many of these things to not take them in isolation. Yeah, they are bad pushing new models with rules but they also are bad at balancing unless they are doing some of these things by choice. We can agree to disagree on it but doesn't mean the trends don't exist and haven't for some time, enough you can almost bet on it, aside from some outliers. ( Like Ogryns being forever bad. )
the_scotsman wrote:damn thats so tough you have so few units and statlines to use in codex space marines to represent those Sword Brothers.
Too bad I wasn't talking about the Sword Brothers. Slayer was. Talk to him about it. I was talking about something losing its flavor.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Emperors Champs are glorified Chapter/Company Champions and quite frankly could be removed too.
But he lost his Oath and lost his slotless nature. Since this was about units losing their flavor in codex consolidation, I would think that something that was as army-affecting as the Champion's Oath and availability/requirement the minute they were put in Codex: Space Marines would fit that categorization quite well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 01:15:35
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
)
