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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
Safe to say I can go back to complaining about marine being terrible again.



Well it would be a bummer to put all that practice to waste. I was always partial to how Bobby G sucked.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Oh and a Gladiator is more akin to a predator and not a razorback but nice deflection.


I mean they're pretty much the same thing regardless of how you want to classify them.

They obviously didn't think many people would rush out to buy an over costed monolith so they really didn't care what rules they gave it. Those that had to have it will and would and others well they already had plenty of old monoliths yet. Yet again, it will come back around and monoliths will be amazing and LoW won't feel so bad, same as they hadn't earlier in 8th.


+4W, +1Save, +2M, reduced DS from 12" to 9", Portal became 6 autohit S8 AP3 D3 as opposed to D6 MW on a 4+ only when charged, Particle Whip went from 6 S8 AP2 DD3 to D6 S12 AP3 D3 Blast, Guass went to RF3 from H3, and it picked up the option for death rays.

It seems to me that they very much considered the rules for the monolith and that people just don't like the mental barrier of losing traits and paying 3 CP coupled with the difficulty of moving on a more terrain heavy board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 01:45:47


   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




I normally fight an Admech player and am curious to see just how many other changes these herald, honestly I'm kinda shocked at how many of these changes make them much better at shooting.

What I'm most curious about is their melee with the buffs coming for Rustalkers will Infiltrators see similar improvements?
Plus Its odd that the Neutron Laser on the Onegar is kinda weak compared to the other Neutron lasers which just turn into straight up Damage 6 guns if they stand still, found on the Venator and Sicarian Venator.

Am hopeful that they get a lot stronger, particularly at shooting, should be scary to face down Admech guns.

Though I am curious, will the durability of Admech improve? I recall the days when Dunecrawlers could squadron up, and had a genuine benefit to doing it. When I fight Admech they feel more fragile than they should.

Anyone expect any major durability buffs to the Cog Boyz?

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Emperors Champs are glorified Chapter/Company Champions and quite frankly could be removed too.
Sanguinary Guard/Deathwing Terminators/Grey Hunters are just glorified Vanguard Veterans/Assault Terminators/Tactical Marines and quite frankly could be removed too.

It's very easy to gloss over the things that other people like and claim that they're basically nothing important and that they could be removed without really changing anything. The fact of the matter is that people like the things that make their armies unique, even if that uniqueness is only slight.

You'd do well not to tell people that they're having fun the wrong way, or that their chosen avenue to playing the game is basically unimportant, which is what you've done here. You're better than that Slayer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 03:49:59


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Oh and a Gladiator is more akin to a predator and not a razorback but nice deflection.


I mean they're pretty much the same thing regardless of how you want to classify them.

They obviously didn't think many people would rush out to buy an over costed monolith so they really didn't care what rules they gave it. Those that had to have it will and would and others well they already had plenty of old monoliths yet. Yet again, it will come back around and monoliths will be amazing and LoW won't feel so bad, same as they hadn't earlier in 8th.


+4W, +1Save, +2M, reduced DS from 12" to 9", Portal became 6 autohit S8 AP3 D3 as opposed to D6 MW on a 4+ only when charged, Particle Whip went from 6 S8 AP2 DD3 to D6 S12 AP3 D3 Blast, Guass went to RF3 from H3, and it picked up the option for death rays.

It seems to me that they very much considered the rules for the monolith and that people just don't like the mental barrier of losing traits and paying 3 CP coupled with the difficulty of moving on a more terrain heavy board.





They really aren't the same but sure.

Glad to know those who don't dig the monolith now just have a mental hang up. Them poor necron players out there. They'll be happy to hear that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 04:17:29


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Emperors Champs are glorified Chapter/Company Champions and quite frankly could be removed too.
Sanguinary Guard/Deathwing Terminators/Grey Hunters are just glorified Vanguard Veterans/Assault Terminators/Tactical Marines and quite frankly could be removed too.

It's very easy to gloss over the things that other people like and claim that they're basically nothing important and that they could be removed without really changing anything. The fact of the matter is that people like the things that make their armies unique, even if that uniqueness is only slight.

You'd do well not to tell people that they're having fun the wrong way, or that their chosen avenue to playing the game is basically unimportant, which is what you've done here. You're better than that Slayer.


UH I'm right though. Different paint job does not a unique army make.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
UH I'm right though. Different paint job does not a unique army make.

You're only right from the perspective of Codex: Space Mares 6th Edition on. In the transition from the 4th Ed Black Templars codex, the Emperor's Champion lost army-wide affecting rules (The Oaths) and the ability to be taken slotless. This previous version made them more than glorified Chapter/Company Champions and one of the ways that Black Templar players could shape their army. As of 6th Edition Codex: Space Marines, they are just another fancy HQ model. These are rules that are more meaning than just having a different paint job as they affect the gameplay.

And that is a significant loss of flavor of the model with the codex consolidation. The whole point of this train of thought.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




panzerfront14 wrote:
I normally fight an Admech player and am curious to see just how many other changes these herald, honestly I'm kinda shocked at how many of these changes make them much better at shooting.


As am I. However, a lot of the power of their shooting comes from character interactions and stratagems. What we really need to see is what is Core and which stratagems stay and which get modified or removed. Buffing the weapons is good, but if those units aren't getting easy access to rerolls and +1 to hit it may not mean as much as it seems right now.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
UH I'm right though.
Are you though? Who are you to say what should and should not be an army?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Different paint job does not a unique army make.
Unique paint jobs, background material, miniatures, and rules make any army. Black Templars have all four. They certainly have more than Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, White Scars and Iron Hands have today.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/15 09:37:30


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
UH I'm right though.
Are you though? Who are you to say what should and should not be an army?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Different paint job does not a unique army make.
Unique paint jobs, background material, miniatures, and rules make any army. Black Templars have all four. They certainly have more than Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, White Scars and Iron Hands have today.



To be fair with slayer fan, he's been pretty consistent he doesn't really dig marines having so many different books or chapters so I doubt any argument of how good or bad changes are from consolidation will be agreed upon.

Now on this topic I have disagreed with him a good deal and in reality they haven't even done a good job of consolidation. It still takes a crazy number of books to put out all the marine stuff, all they did do well is make certain choices bland and flavorless while charging everyone more to field their old armies by needing to buy both a codex and a supplement. All the while still maintaining a crazy long release window for all marines.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 AngryAngel80 wrote:


They really aren't the same but sure.


They're both tanks that carry a S6 AP1 D1 gun. You couldn't make a better comparison.

There is little daylight between the Annihilator and the Lancer if that is more appropriate.

Glad to know those who don't dig the monolith now just have a mental hang up. Them poor necron players out there. They'll be happy to hear that.


That isn't quite what I said nor all of it, but ok.



   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
UH I'm right though.
Are you though? Who are you to say what should and should not be an army?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Different paint job does not a unique army make.
Unique paint jobs, background material, miniatures, and rules make any army. Black Templars have all four. They certainly have more than Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, White Scars and Iron Hands have today.

Same argument that leads to Supplements that aren't necessary to begin with. We get it, you don't like change. Consolidation was literally the best thing that could've happened to Black Templars as they got more options than ever, but y'all can still whine that you don't have Vows anymore, which were badly done to begin with LOL

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Same argument that leads to Supplements that aren't necessary to begin with. We get it, you don't like change. Consolidation was literally the best thing that could've happened to Black Templars as they got more options than ever, but y'all can still whine that you don't have Vows anymore, which were badly done to begin with LOL

But the Oaths bring in rules which create the flavor of the army. It is the losing of that flavor at the same time the consolidation happened which started this sub-thread of conversation. Getting access to the Thunderfire Cannon doesn't quite have the same flavor as being able to have every unit Deny the Witch. This gets even more crazy when you consider that the Oaths could have been updated instead of dropped entirely. So the only flavor Black Templars had left were the Crusader Squads, no Librarians, and the fluff of being the "slightly less Angry Marines".

You whine about people whining, but in so doing, you are losing out on the point in the conversation. It is you who needs to get over yourself on people bringing up this point (a point I haven't even seen brought up in years) as you jumped on it as if it was a fresh wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 16:32:36


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




I feel like things have gone slightly off topic considering this is an Admech thread. As for the gun change I am thrilled with the changes to the galvanic rifles. My Vanguard were usually the ones doing the footwork anyways with the Ranger sitting back.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Des702 wrote:
I feel like things have gone slightly off topic considering this is an Admech thread. As for the gun change I am thrilled with the changes to the galvanic rifles. My Vanguard were usually the ones doing the footwork anyways with the Ranger sitting back.


Yeah, news threads for upcoming faction updates tend to turn into Festivus Airing Of Grievances threads whenever something comes out that is perceived to be better than a thing some other thing has.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Des702 wrote:
I feel like things have gone slightly off topic considering this is an Admech thread. As for the gun change I am thrilled with the changes to the galvanic rifles. My Vanguard were usually the ones doing the footwork anyways with the Ranger sitting back.


Admech...

Rifles are heavy, lascannons are assault.
Tanks have legs, infantry have tracks.





   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Admech...

Rifles are heavy, lascannons are assault.
Tanks have legs, infantry have tracks.
And their aesthetic keeps changing wildly.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





I'm personally looking forward to the divinci spiral powered robo-cat bikers wielding s2 ap0 dam3 guns that are heavy12 for no reason.

"Smilodgyro Katzikarii equipped with Alvaeic Hypersyronizors"
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm personally looking forward to the divinci spiral powered robo-cat bikers wielding s2 ap0 dam3 guns that are heavy12 for no reason.

"Smilodgyro Katzikarii equipped with Alvaeic Hypersyronizors"


I can't wait to buy three units of these !!
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





 AngryAngel80 wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm personally looking forward to the divinci spiral powered robo-cat bikers wielding s2 ap0 dam3 guns that are heavy12 for no reason.

"Smilodgyro Katzikarii equipped with Alvaeic Hypersyronizors"


I can't wait to buy three units of these !!

They'll come in squads of 3, but the kit will only contain parts for one. Priced to move at $65!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 waefre_1 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm personally looking forward to the divinci spiral powered robo-cat bikers wielding s2 ap0 dam3 guns that are heavy12 for no reason.

"Smilodgyro Katzikarii equipped with Alvaeic Hypersyronizors"


I can't wait to buy three units of these !!

They'll come in squads of 3, but the kit will only contain parts for one. Priced to move at $65!


That is awful, GW you stepped over the line, thats why I'm only buying 3 as soon as I can and that is it ! I'm serious.
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm personally looking forward to the divinci spiral powered robo-cat bikers wielding s2 ap0 dam3 guns that are heavy12 for no reason.

"Smilodgyro Katzikarii equipped with Alvaeic Hypersyronizors"


I can't wait to buy three units of these !!

They'll come in squads of 3, but the kit will only contain parts for one. Priced to move at $65!


That is awful, GW you stepped over the line, thats why I'm only buying 3 as soon as I can and that is it ! I'm serious.

But Angel, you'll miss out on the special Strat they get if you only buy three! You wouldn't want to make the poor rules writers sad you can't use their neat rule, would you?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 waefre_1 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm personally looking forward to the divinci spiral powered robo-cat bikers wielding s2 ap0 dam3 guns that are heavy12 for no reason.

"Smilodgyro Katzikarii equipped with Alvaeic Hypersyronizors"


I can't wait to buy three units of these !!

They'll come in squads of 3, but the kit will only contain parts for one. Priced to move at $65!


That is awful, GW you stepped over the line, thats why I'm only buying 3 as soon as I can and that is it ! I'm serious.

But Angel, you'll miss out on the special Strat they get if you only buy three! You wouldn't want to make the poor rules writers sad you can't use their neat rule, would you?


Alright well I'll get the amount needed for the special rules if, and this is a big if, they place them in a 90 page, $60 campaign book with about one page of useful rules ! If they don't do that, I'll just cross my arms and wait a week, then buy more of them but I'll never forgive GW for letting me down until the next pre order, mark my words.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Don't forget that you can only play them if you buy their super special book, with loads of interesting pictures, art, and a hard cardboard back, for only 95.00 USD. Unfortunatly, only 600 were made so first come first serve. FOMO.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Oh and a Gladiator is more akin to a predator and not a razorback but nice deflection.


I mean they're pretty much the same thing regardless of how you want to classify them.

They obviously didn't think many people would rush out to buy an over costed monolith so they really didn't care what rules they gave it. Those that had to have it will and would and others well they already had plenty of old monoliths yet. Yet again, it will come back around and monoliths will be amazing and LoW won't feel so bad, same as they hadn't earlier in 8th.


+4W, +1Save, +2M, reduced DS from 12" to 9", Portal became 6 autohit S8 AP3 D3 as opposed to D6 MW on a 4+ only when charged, Particle Whip went from 6 S8 AP2 DD3 to D6 S12 AP3 D3 Blast, Guass went to RF3 from H3, and it picked up the option for death rays.

It seems to me that they very much considered the rules for the monolith and that people just don't like the mental barrier of losing traits and paying 3 CP coupled with the difficulty of moving on a more terrain heavy board.





They really aren't the same but sure.

Glad to know those who don't dig the monolith now just have a mental hang up. Them poor necron players out there. They'll be happy to hear that.

It friggen sucks they are a LOW. The real issue is the Stupid Aux detachment not getting army traits. If they just changed that you'd see a lot more monos. I only have 2 so I have run in a SK+2 mono super heavy detachment and they do pretty friggen well.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
It friggen sucks they are a LOW. The real issue is the Stupid Aux detachment not getting army traits. If they just changed that you'd see a lot more monos. I only have 2 so I have run in a SK+2 mono super heavy detachment and they do pretty friggen well.


I wrote up a list with a monolith and I'm going to try and play it this weekend on TTS ( if the wife lets me ).

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It friggen sucks they are a LOW. The real issue is the Stupid Aux detachment not getting army traits. If they just changed that you'd see a lot more monos. I only have 2 so I have run in a SK+2 mono super heavy detachment and they do pretty friggen well.


I wrote up a list with a monolith and I'm going to try and play it this weekend on TTS ( if the wife lets me ).


'honey can i borrow the monolith?'

'Craig you know I'm using it. The lawn wont aerate itself.'

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It friggen sucks they are a LOW. The real issue is the Stupid Aux detachment not getting army traits. If they just changed that you'd see a lot more monos. I only have 2 so I have run in a SK+2 mono super heavy detachment and they do pretty friggen well.


I wrote up a list with a monolith and I'm going to try and play it this weekend on TTS ( if the wife lets me ).

Details, details! What's the plan? Great to see someone else trotting out their "completely uncompetitive" LoWs.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I was trotting out completely useless LoW units before it was cool. - so says the the hipster of unloved units that is me -


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Oh and a Gladiator is more akin to a predator and not a razorback but nice deflection.


I mean they're pretty much the same thing regardless of how you want to classify them.

They obviously didn't think many people would rush out to buy an over costed monolith so they really didn't care what rules they gave it. Those that had to have it will and would and others well they already had plenty of old monoliths yet. Yet again, it will come back around and monoliths will be amazing and LoW won't feel so bad, same as they hadn't earlier in 8th.


+4W, +1Save, +2M, reduced DS from 12" to 9", Portal became 6 autohit S8 AP3 D3 as opposed to D6 MW on a 4+ only when charged, Particle Whip went from 6 S8 AP2 DD3 to D6 S12 AP3 D3 Blast, Guass went to RF3 from H3, and it picked up the option for death rays.

It seems to me that they very much considered the rules for the monolith and that people just don't like the mental barrier of losing traits and paying 3 CP coupled with the difficulty of moving on a more terrain heavy board.





They really aren't the same but sure.

Glad to know those who don't dig the monolith now just have a mental hang up. Them poor necron players out there. They'll be happy to hear that.

It friggen sucks they are a LOW. The real issue is the Stupid Aux detachment not getting army traits. If they just changed that you'd see a lot more monos. I only have 2 so I have run in a SK+2 mono super heavy detachment and they do pretty friggen well.


On this I'll agree with you, the LoW needing its own detachment is dumb. It's equally dumb when standard units get placed into LoW for no apparent reason, rules buffs aside. GW needs to figure out if it wants people to run LoW or not honestly. Then either make the units good for what all hassle it is to bring them or just say " Hey, they are for fun but we don't think you should bring them. " It's a lot of money for most of those units to spend for a subpar unit if that is the case, not even accounting for the point cost for some of them which is intense while still costing you CP and leaving them without army traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Don't forget that you can only play them if you buy their super special book, with loads of interesting pictures, art, and a hard cardboard back, for only 95.00 USD. Unfortunatly, only 600 were made so first come first serve. FOMO.


I think it's closer to 130 USD and Only 300 are made so I'll need to buy 2 just to be sure in case one gets destroyed !

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/17 02:34:49


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 AngryAngel80 wrote:
...On this I'll agree with you, the LoW needing its own detachment is dumb. It's equally dumb when standard units get placed into LoW for no apparent reason, rules buffs aside. GW needs to figure out if it wants people to run LoW or not honestly. Then either make the units good for what all hassle it is to bring them or just say " Hey, they are for fun but we don't think you should bring them. " It's a lot of money for most of those units to spend for a subpar unit if that is the case, not even accounting for the point cost for some of them which is intense while still costing you CP and leaving them without army traits...


It reads to me like a catastrophically misinformed balance decision, like they're thinking to themselves "Lords of War are really good, they should require a handicap to use!" instead of taking a realistic look at what Lords of War actually are and do. It reads to me a lot like the D&D 3.5 design team picking around allowing arcane casters with armor and writing really terrible armored caster classes with huge handicaps as a result.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
 
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