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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well we're already talking about Fellblades and Typhons, and fw is our only current source for LOWs with 9th edition rules, so I think it's relevant. Land Raider Achilles don't have Martial Legacy, so no 1CP tax.


Ah, so it doesn't. What a jerk!

The point is that neither the Fellblade nor Eradicators are going to get all of their guns in range turn 1, which is good. But if they do the Eradicators have a far higher chance of killing the Monolith in one shot. Again, each has its advantages and disadvantages. The Fellblade has more movement and loses effectiveness slower, the Eradicators can move more freely and benefit more from cover. But only one pays a 4CP tax.


You'd likely find yourself spending more CP on those eradicators than you might imagine - transhuman, reserves, +1 save.

Edit: As further proof that gw doesn't consider CP taxes in the price of units consider Contemptors: A Relic or Chaos Contemptor with multi-melta and cc weapon is exactly the same price as a codex Contemptor +1CP, with no additional rules.


Just feels like a flexibility thing though. Loyalist contemptor is bare bones on weapon options.

   
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Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ah, so it doesn't. What a jerk!

Which goes directly against the lore for the Chaos version. But they obviously weren't worried about the Lore for the Legions when they copy paste....er, I mean "wrote" the rules for the Chaos fw vehicles.....

You'd likely find yourself spending more CP on those eradicators than you might imagine - transhuman, reserves, +1 save.

Same for the Fellblade. You're going to be popping Smokescreen every turn and loyalists will be using POTMS once it gets bracketed to keep all of those guns firing at peak efficiency. Prey On the Weak works pretty good too.

Just feels like a flexibility thing though. Loyalist contemptor is bare bones on weapon options.

Are you aware of any other units that pay CP so that they can then pay points for optional wargear?

   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Are you aware of any other units that pay CP so that they can then pay points for optional wargear?


Not off the top of my head. I'm just peeing into the wind, so don't take what I say with too much gravity.

   
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The Chaos versions don't even get Legion traits, do they? Meaning you pay 1CP for something objectively worse.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

yukishiro1 wrote:You know GW has messed something up when it comes to LoWs when even I think they've gone too far in penalizing them.

The 3CP for the aux LoW detachment should obviously be refunded if you have a warlord in a pat/bat/brigade of the same faction, similar to how supreme commander works, but in reverse.


Never thought we'd be in agreement on this particular subject.

Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Are you aware of any other units that pay CP so that they can then pay points for optional wargear?


Not off the top of my head. I'm just peeing into the wind, so don't take what I say with too much gravity.

Oh, don't worry Daed, I'm not. Figured you were doing a bit of "Devils Advocate".



Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The Chaos versions don't even get Legion traits, do they? Meaning you pay 1CP for something objectively worse.

No, they don't. I'm betting the new CSM codex will give Legion traits to all "Heretic Astartes" units, but that doesn't help much now. They forgot to include the MACHINE SPIRIT keyword on the appropriate units as well. Doesn't really affect the Undivided Legions and 1KSONS right now because they don't have the appropriate strategem, but Death Guard does, and right now it works on standard Land Raiders, and that's it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 18:21:26


 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah the low restrictions are just el classic gw over balancing. The problematic lows are the ones that they made sure could still play with full cp (knights) and all the oyhers got massive punishment.


I'm not really convinced that LoW users should have their cake and eat it, too.

I would wager that knights won't get a CP refund with soup.

Multiple LoW, plentiful CP, flexible list construction - pick two.

Many common LoW don't have their codex redone. Orks will be the chance to see if they can make a stompa useful without being overbearing.



Which is the problem. Taking one LoW from your own faction eats 3CP (for some of us 4CP). Without faction traits for the LoW. Under the current rules there's no such choice.


Which is exactly what many did, take one for say feeling or I don't know because it looks cool and could do something. Most still weren't great for their cost nor as survivable as its points in similar units being one target over many.

However, it's not looking great many will be able to take their LoW without it costing them lots, in cp and points for no real gain in the end. That isn't a good design choice maybe they shouldn't be take always choices but they shouldn't feel like take never choices.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
12 HMRs will have a way harder time all getting in range - especially without penalty.

The landraider comparison is useful. Four lascannons, THB, and MM is 310. A death ray monolith is 380.

Compare four lascannons to four death rays. Compare MM to Particle Whip. According to Unit Crunch ( assuming I did it right ) a LR has a less than 0.5% chance to kill a Monolith ( slightly higher in Heavy ) whereas the Monolith has a 12% chance.

Consider that the Monolith has +8W, 6 auto-hit melee attacks at AP3 D3 compared to 6 WS6 S8 attacks on the LR, it can deepstrike, it can bring models in more easily than the Landraider, and it heals.

Surely all of this is worth more than 70 points, isn't it? That's why it is LoW and 3CP.

You are correct on this IMO. From a purely points comparison - it is a bargain. But all units of this size suffer from hyperinflation of anti tank weapons. Weapons that deal mortals / weapons that average 6 damage - AP-4 weapons even are quite common. So even as a bargain - it is still a huge risk to take one. Aux LOW need to get army traits if it is the same type as your warlord or if it is your warlord and dropped to 2 points in CP. 3x supper detachment needs to go to 3 CP - fixed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.

Aye - core is probably the worst rule they have come out with. ESP with it being arbitrarily assigned with no clear link to point cost ether. Very poorly done.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 16:30:48


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 17:13:22


   
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Canada

Similar to radioactive decay, it would appear that all threads must eventually end up discussing the Fellblade.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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In My Lab

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.

A Fellblade is 600 points base. It gets, at BS 3+ (4+ at 13- wounds)...

1d6 S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots, Blast
One of 2 S14 AP-4 D6 shots, or 2d6 S8 AP-3 D2 shots, Blast
8 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots or 6 S10 AP-4 Dd3+3 shots for +10 Points
6 S5 AP-1 D2 shots

It can also take a Multi-Melta for +25 points, for 2 S8 AP-4 Dd6 (d6+2 in half range) shots.

Eradicators (squad of 3) are 135 Points.
+5 Points per Heavy Melta Rifle, +10 for a Multi-Melta.

I'll assume that the Eradicators go ham, and pay for the upgrades-155 for 3 Eradicators, two Heavy Rifles and one Multi. Compare that to a 625 points Fellblade with added Multi Melta.

Assuming the Eradicators move, each squad does...

4 shots with Heavy Rifles and Multi-Meltas
2 hits
1 wound against T8
1 failed save (3+) or 5/6ths a failed save (2+ or 6++) per gun type for 1d6+2 on one and 1d6 on the other

Point for point, Eradicators kill a Fellblade in one volley, no buffs.

The Fellblade, meanwhile, does...

Spoiler:
7/2 S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots
14/6 or 7/3 hits
35/18 wounds
175/108 failed saves
875/216 damage, or 4.05 damage from the Demolisher Cannon

7 S8 AP-3 D2 shots
14/3 hits
28/9 wounds
140/54 or 70/27 failed saves
210/54 or 105/27 damage, or 3.89 damage from the main cannon

8 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots
16/3 hits
32/9 wounds
160/54 or 80/27 failed saves
200/27 damage, or 7.41 damage from the Lascannons

6 S5 AP-1 D2 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
2 damage from the Heavy Bolters

2 shots at S8 AP-4 Dd6
4/3 hits
8/9 wounds
8/9 failed saves
20/9 damage or 2.22 damage from the Multi-Melta

Total damage is, assuming prescient levels of split firing...

19.57, or six dead Eradicators.
A Fellblade kills about half the 12 Eradicators in one volley, assuming they have no Apothecary and are not benefiting from cover.

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Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
12 HMRs will have a way harder time all getting in range - especially without penalty.

The landraider comparison is useful. Four lascannons, THB, and MM is 310. A death ray monolith is 380.

Compare four lascannons to four death rays. Compare MM to Particle Whip. According to Unit Crunch ( assuming I did it right ) a LR has a less than 0.5% chance to kill a Monolith ( slightly higher in Heavy ) whereas the Monolith has a 12% chance.

Consider that the Monolith has +8W, 6 auto-hit melee attacks at AP3 D3 compared to 6 WS6 S8 attacks on the LR, it can deepstrike, it can bring models in more easily than the Landraider, and it heals.

Surely all of this is worth more than 70 points, isn't it? That's why it is LoW and 3CP.


You are correct on this IMO. From a purely points comparison - it is a bargain. But all units of this size suffer from hyperinflation of anti tank weapons. Weapons that deal mortals / weapons that average 6 damage - AP-4 weapons even are quite common. So even as a bargain - it is still a huge risk to take one. Aux LOW need to get army traits if it is the same type as your warlord or if it is your warlord and dropped to 2 points in CP. 3x supper detachment needs to go to 3 CP - fixed.

So one LoW will run you 2CP but three will run you 3CP? No. If you're going that route it should be 1CP for a SHAD and 3CP for the SHD.


Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.


Ding! A wound on a Fellblade is worth 23 points. So a Techmarine or Warpsmith on average will get you 46 points worth of wounds per turn, that's an Eradicator worth of points. Master of the Forge will get you 69 points back (really hope Warpsmiths get to be upgraded like that). Plenty of other stuff still works for Chaos Fellblades too. Iron Warriors can really make our vehicles work. We'll see how much of that sticks around in the new CSM codex.

Agreed on deploying a SH as well. You need more armour to make them think about where their going to put their AT. I find that a Leviathan + Contemptor works, or an Achilles.

Edit: @JNAPRODUCTIONS: Instead of spending 25 points on the MM spend the 20 on the Laser Destroyers. You'll kill more Eradicators, or ABs, for that matter. Greater range too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 17:47:35


 
   
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I don't know if I've ever even seen a Fellblade on the table more than once. I think Falchions came up more often, for whatever reason.

(and by more often I mean like three times total maybe)

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
12 HMRs will have a way harder time all getting in range - especially without penalty.

The landraider comparison is useful. Four lascannons, THB, and MM is 310. A death ray monolith is 380.

Compare four lascannons to four death rays. Compare MM to Particle Whip. According to Unit Crunch ( assuming I did it right ) a LR has a less than 0.5% chance to kill a Monolith ( slightly higher in Heavy ) whereas the Monolith has a 12% chance.

Consider that the Monolith has +8W, 6 auto-hit melee attacks at AP3 D3 compared to 6 WS6 S8 attacks on the LR, it can deepstrike, it can bring models in more easily than the Landraider, and it heals.

Surely all of this is worth more than 70 points, isn't it? That's why it is LoW and 3CP.


You are correct on this IMO. From a purely points comparison - it is a bargain. But all units of this size suffer from hyperinflation of anti tank weapons. Weapons that deal mortals / weapons that average 6 damage - AP-4 weapons even are quite common. So even as a bargain - it is still a huge risk to take one. Aux LOW need to get army traits if it is the same type as your warlord or if it is your warlord and dropped to 2 points in CP. 3x supper detachment needs to go to 3 CP - fixed.

So one LoW will run you 2CP but three will run you 3CP? No. If you're going that route it should be 1CP for a SHAD and 3CP for the SHD.


Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.


Ding! A wound on a Fellblade is worth 23 points. So a Techmarine or Warpsmith on average will get you 46 points worth of wounds per turn, that's an Eradicator worth of points. Master of the Forge will get you 69 points back (really hope Warpsmiths get to be upgraded like that). Plenty of other stuff still works for Chaos Fellblades too. Iron Warriors can really make our vehicles work. We'll see how much of that sticks around in the new CSM codex.

Agreed on deploying a SH as well. You need more armour to make them think about where their going to put their AT. I find that a Leviathan + Contemptor works, or an Achilles.

I figure the detachments worth is about equal to a patrol and a batallion. That is there the pricing comes from in my head. Seems fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't know if I've ever even seen a Fellblade on the table more than once. I think Falchions came up more often, for whatever reason.

(and by more often I mean like three times total maybe)
Astreus puts them both to shame IMO for the points. The Fellblade is obnoxiously bad on its main gun. The falchion at lest is blowing up 1 thing a turn with it's maingun.

Astreus has void sheilds / an invune / costs less. Its maingun is also very versatile. Got mine build last week. Excited to give it a go and have it be rocked by armies of 9 ironstriders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 17:42:10


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
12 HMRs will have a way harder time all getting in range - especially without penalty.

The landraider comparison is useful. Four lascannons, THB, and MM is 310. A death ray monolith is 380.

Compare four lascannons to four death rays. Compare MM to Particle Whip. According to Unit Crunch ( assuming I did it right ) a LR has a less than 0.5% chance to kill a Monolith ( slightly higher in Heavy ) whereas the Monolith has a 12% chance.

Consider that the Monolith has +8W, 6 auto-hit melee attacks at AP3 D3 compared to 6 WS6 S8 attacks on the LR, it can deepstrike, it can bring models in more easily than the Landraider, and it heals.

Surely all of this is worth more than 70 points, isn't it? That's why it is LoW and 3CP.


You are correct on this IMO. From a purely points comparison - it is a bargain. But all units of this size suffer from hyperinflation of anti tank weapons. Weapons that deal mortals / weapons that average 6 damage - AP-4 weapons even are quite common. So even as a bargain - it is still a huge risk to take one. Aux LOW need to get army traits if it is the same type as your warlord or if it is your warlord and dropped to 2 points in CP. 3x supper detachment needs to go to 3 CP - fixed.

So one LoW will run you 2CP but three will run you 3CP? No. If you're going that route it should be 1CP for a SHAD and 3CP for the SHD.


Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.


Ding! A wound on a Fellblade is worth 23 points. So a Techmarine or Warpsmith on average will get you 46 points worth of wounds per turn, that's an Eradicator worth of points. Master of the Forge will get you 69 points back (really hope Warpsmiths get to be upgraded like that). Plenty of other stuff still works for Chaos Fellblades too. Iron Warriors can really make our vehicles work. We'll see how much of that sticks around in the new CSM codex.

Agreed on deploying a SH as well. You need more armour to make them think about where their going to put their AT. I find that a Leviathan + Contemptor works, or an Achilles.

Edit: @JNAPRODUCTIONS: Instead of spending 25 points on the MM spend the 20 on the Laser Destroyers. You'll kill more Eradicators, or ABs, for that matter. Greater range too.
Isn't it only ten for the Laser Destroyers?

But that changes it from 7.41 damage (Quad Las) to exactly 10 damage. Huh, neat how that worked out.

It's an improvement of...

10-7.41-2.22=.37 points of damage, or an entirely negligible amount.

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Spoiler:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.

A Fellblade is 600 points base. It gets, at BS 3+ (4+ at 13- wounds)...

1d6 S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots, Blast
One of 2 S14 AP-4 D6 shots, or 2d6 S8 AP-3 D2 shots, Blast
8 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots or 6 S10 AP-4 Dd3+3 shots for +10 Points
6 S5 AP-1 D2 shots

It can also take a Multi-Melta for +25 points, for 2 S8 AP-4 Dd6 (d6+2 in half range) shots.

Eradicators (squad of 3) are 135 Points.
+5 Points per Heavy Melta Rifle, +10 for a Multi-Melta.

I'll assume that the Eradicators go ham, and pay for the upgrades-155 for 3 Eradicators, two Heavy Rifles and one Multi. Compare that to a 625 points Fellblade with added Multi Melta.

Assuming the Eradicators move, each squad does...

4 shots with Heavy Rifles and Multi-Meltas
2 hits
1 wound against T8
1 failed save (3+) or 5/6ths a failed save (2+ or 6++) per gun type for 1d6+2 on one and 1d6 on the other

Point for point, Eradicators kill a Fellblade in one volley, no buffs.

The Fellblade, meanwhile, does...

[spoiler]7/2 S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots
14/6 or 7/3 hits
35/18 wounds
175/108 failed saves
875/216 damage, or 4.05 damage from the Demolisher Cannon

7 S8 AP-3 D2 shots
14/3 hits
28/9 wounds
140/54 or 70/27 failed saves
210/54 or 105/27 damage, or 3.89 damage from the main cannon

8 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots
16/3 hits
32/9 wounds
160/54 or 80/27 failed saves
200/27 damage, or 7.41 damage from the Lascannons

6 S5 AP-1 D2 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
2 damage from the Heavy Bolters

2 shots at S8 AP-4 Dd6
4/3 hits
8/9 wounds
8/9 failed saves
20/9 damage or 2.22 damage from the Multi-Melta

Total damage is, assuming prescient levels of split firing...

19.57, or six dead Eradicators.
A Fellblade kills about half the 12 Eradicators in one volley, assuming they have no Apothecary and are not benefiting from cover.
[/spoiler]

Understood, however, getting them all in range is still not simple and terrain can still block shots. More importantly if my opponent had that list the Fellblade would immediately go reserves ( yes, 4CP ) and I would do my best to deny them their effectiveness.

Ultimately you need to really carefully design a list with this model ( including CP regen ) to make it work in this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't it only ten for the Laser Destroyers?

But that changes it from 7.41 damage (Quad Las) to exactly 10 damage. Huh, neat how that worked out.

It's an improvement of...

10-7.41-2.22=.37 points of damage, or an entirely negligible amount.


Averages are not good here.

6 * .666 * .833 = 3.3 unsaveable wounds guaranteed to kill a model each time
8 * .666 * .666 * .833 = 3.0 wounds that will kill the model 66% of the time

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 18:02:13


   
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In My Lab

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the eradicators can get all the CORE buffs while the Fellblade gets bugger all.

Plus they can be resurrected by an Apothecary.


Fellblade can be repaired, smoke, and operate at full wounds through machine spirit now....well not the Chaos one, yet.

Rerolls and Apoths are fine, but you're talking no small amount of points and a battalion's worth of HQ slots on top of constraining where those Eradicators can go.

I think a really key part of playing a super heavy is having enough units to force them to reveal their deployments before the SH gets placed. e.g. Someone with a bunch of attack bikes then has to commit to spreading then out instead of grouping them. Depends on the map and deployment type, too though.

A Fellblade is 600 points base. It gets, at BS 3+ (4+ at 13- wounds)...

1d6 S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots, Blast
One of 2 S14 AP-4 D6 shots, or 2d6 S8 AP-3 D2 shots, Blast
8 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots or 6 S10 AP-4 Dd3+3 shots for +10 Points
6 S5 AP-1 D2 shots

It can also take a Multi-Melta for +25 points, for 2 S8 AP-4 Dd6 (d6+2 in half range) shots.

Eradicators (squad of 3) are 135 Points.
+5 Points per Heavy Melta Rifle, +10 for a Multi-Melta.

I'll assume that the Eradicators go ham, and pay for the upgrades-155 for 3 Eradicators, two Heavy Rifles and one Multi. Compare that to a 625 points Fellblade with added Multi Melta.

Assuming the Eradicators move, each squad does...

4 shots with Heavy Rifles and Multi-Meltas
2 hits
1 wound against T8
1 failed save (3+) or 5/6ths a failed save (2+ or 6++) per gun type for 1d6+2 on one and 1d6 on the other

Point for point, Eradicators kill a Fellblade in one volley, no buffs.

The Fellblade, meanwhile, does...

[spoiler]7/2 S10 AP-3 Dd6 shots
14/6 or 7/3 hits
35/18 wounds
175/108 failed saves
875/216 damage, or 4.05 damage from the Demolisher Cannon

7 S8 AP-3 D2 shots
14/3 hits
28/9 wounds
140/54 or 70/27 failed saves
210/54 or 105/27 damage, or 3.89 damage from the main cannon

8 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots
16/3 hits
32/9 wounds
160/54 or 80/27 failed saves
200/27 damage, or 7.41 damage from the Lascannons

6 S5 AP-1 D2 shots
4 hits
2 wounds
1 failed save
2 damage from the Heavy Bolters

2 shots at S8 AP-4 Dd6
4/3 hits
8/9 wounds
8/9 failed saves
20/9 damage or 2.22 damage from the Multi-Melta

Total damage is, assuming prescient levels of split firing...

19.57, or six dead Eradicators.
A Fellblade kills about half the 12 Eradicators in one volley, assuming they have no Apothecary and are not benefiting from cover.
[/spoiler]

Understood, however, getting them all in range is still not simple and terrain can still block shots. More importantly if my opponent had that list the Fellblade would immediately go reserves ( yes, 4CP ) and I would do my best to deny them their effectiveness.

Ultimately you need to really carefully design a list with this model ( including CP regen ) to make it work in this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't it only ten for the Laser Destroyers?

But that changes it from 7.41 damage (Quad Las) to exactly 10 damage. Huh, neat how that worked out.

It's an improvement of...

10-7.41-2.22=.37 points of damage, or an entirely negligible amount.


Averages are not good here.

6 * .666 * .833 = 3.3 unsaveable wounds guaranteed to kill a model each time
8 * .666 * .666 * .833 = 3.0 wounds that will kill the model 66% of the time

I accounted for overkill and underkill.

But here's the thing-Fellblade can't benefit from Obscuring Terrain. Eradicators can.
Fellblade can't be buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant. Eradicators can.
Fellblade was calculated hitting normally. Eradicators already kill it even with a -1.
Fellblade would need prescient split firing to properly kill Eradicators, or anything else besides s superheavy, without wasting some shots to overkill. Eradicators are in four squads, meaning they can split fire more effectively. (Yes, ERADICATORS split fire more effectively.)
Fellblade doesn't get Chapter Tactics. Eradicators do.
Fellblade costs 4 CP just to take it. Eradicators don't.

There is a price point where the Fellblade is a good model, or even competitive. If it was, say, 100 points? You'd see three in every Marine list! That's well worth eating 6 CP and 300 points! But at 600 points per Fellblade, plus a little extra to upgun it... No. It's bad.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't it only ten for the Laser Destroyers?

But that changes it from 7.41 damage (Quad Las) to exactly 10 damage. Huh, neat how that worked out.

It's an improvement of...

10-7.41-2.22=.37 points of damage, or an entirely negligible amount.


Averages are not good here.

6 * .666 * .833 = 3.3 unsaveable wounds guaranteed to kill a model each time
8 * .666 * .666 * .833 = 3.0 wounds that will kill the model 66% of the time


Ding again! Also a guaranteed dead AB per wound. And it's 10 points per gun.

You'll have trouble putting a Fellblade in reserves Daed. Remember, if the unit can't fit within 6 of a board edge it can't do anything on the turn it arrives, and a Fellblade is over 6 from sponson to sponson.
   
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Remind me: why are we discussing Fellblades and Eradicators (and previously Monoliths) in a fething Ad Mech thread?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 18:35:06


 
   
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ryzouken wrote:
Remind me: why are we discussing Fellblades and Eradicators (and previously Monoliths) in a fething Ad Mech thread?


because someone bitched that admech shooting was too good for the price, which morphed into people comparing thier own armies shooting, forgetting that its supposed to be relative to admech.


since its clear the codex has been delayed by logistical issues, its not like we have much better to do, apart form speculate wildly.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
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xerxeskingofking wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
Remind me: why are we discussing Fellblades and Eradicators (and previously Monoliths) in a fething Ad Mech thread?


because someone bitched that admech shooting was too good for the price, which morphed into people comparing thier own armies shooting, forgetting that its supposed to be relative to admech.


since its clear the codex has been delayed by logistical issues, its not like we have much better to do, apart form speculate wildly.
Realistically - this is how 40k conversation goes. Plus yes. Codex massively delayed - WTF we gonna do anyways?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You'll have trouble putting a Fellblade in reserves Daed. Remember, if the unit can't fit within 6 of a board edge it can't do anything on the turn it arrives, and a Fellblade is over 6 from sponson to sponson.


Fair - that's a thing I would petition to change or bug the TO about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ryzouken wrote:
Remind me: why are we discussing Fellblades and Eradicators (and previously Monoliths) in a fething Ad Mech thread?


Because we like arguing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:


But here's the thing-Fellblade can't benefit from Obscuring Terrain. Eradicators can.
Fellblade can't be buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant. Eradicators can.
Fellblade was calculated hitting normally. Eradicators already kill it even with a -1.
Fellblade would need prescient split firing to properly kill Eradicators, or anything else besides s superheavy, without wasting some shots to overkill. Eradicators are in four squads, meaning they can split fire more effectively. (Yes, ERADICATORS split fire more effectively.)
Fellblade doesn't get Chapter Tactics. Eradicators do.
Fellblade costs 4 CP just to take it. Eradicators don't.

There is a price point where the Fellblade is a good model, or even competitive. If it was, say, 100 points? You'd see three in every Marine list! That's well worth eating 6 CP and 300 points! But at 600 points per Fellblade, plus a little extra to upgun it... No. It's bad.


Not all terrain will give a 24" gun line of sight through it and the firing angle to the visible part of the model will be a much longer distance.

Would a Fellblade do well with these Admech guns coming on board? I don't know. They could be worse for vehicle than Eradicators. We'll see.

I won't sit here and definitively claim it is a good model, but I still think people have to approach things a little differently. You're not getting traits? Go soup and support it the best way you can. Taking a lot of heat? Bring fast moving melee vehicles.

Are you going to win tournaments? Probably not. Will you have fun? I think so.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/19 20:14:17


   
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xerxeskingofking wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
Remind me: why are we discussing Fellblades and Eradicators (and previously Monoliths) in a fething Ad Mech thread?


because someone bitched that admech shooting was too good for the price, which morphed into people comparing thier own armies shooting, forgetting that its supposed to be relative to admech.


since its clear the codex has been delayed by logistical issues, its not like we have much better to do, apart form speculate wildly.
How about we discuss wild AdMech comparisons here and talk about Fellblades somewhere else?
   
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 alextroy wrote:
How about we discuss wild AdMech comparisons here and talk about Fellblades somewhere else?


i agree with you, but im not the one talking about fellblades.


Realistically - this is how 40k conversation goes. Plus yes. Codex massively delayed - WTF we gonna do anyways?


oh i know, its the same down the pub (now that they are open again), but still threads are supposed to stay on topic more than drunk people.

anyway, since we can be fairly certain that the admech codex has been finalised, what things do we think have been done that they HAVEN'T talked about? My hope is they've re-worked our relics as they are all very warlord centric (In a army that doesnt use warlords as Buffers, not beatsticks), and done something with the Infiltraitors unit to make it semi-viable (currently just bad. crappy low strenght shooting, medicore at best in melee, no charge buffs to actually get them into melee, and their signature trick has been usurped by thier own alternate build option via a PA strat). im not sure how to rescue them with the existing plastic kits, but some good strats and a always on power might be the way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 21:33:58


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
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 alextroy wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
ryzouken wrote:
Remind me: why are we discussing Fellblades and Eradicators (and previously Monoliths) in a fething Ad Mech thread?


because someone bitched that admech shooting was too good for the price, which morphed into people comparing thier own armies shooting, forgetting that its supposed to be relative to admech.


since its clear the codex has been delayed by logistical issues, its not like we have much better to do, apart form speculate wildly.
How about we discuss wild AdMech comparisons here and talk about Fellblades somewhere else?

Excellent. Care to start us off?

I personally don't think any of these are a problem. The galvanic rifles are basically bolt rifles, but heavy instead of rapid fire, and come on less durable platforms. The Arc Rifles come 1 per 3 models, which makes them hard to spam. Am I wrong? Should I run around screaming about the sky falling?
   
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Admech are probably going to experience a ground up approach like DG. So much of it will change, because the book came out so early in 8th.

   
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I could see canticles getting similar treatment to command protocols from the cron dex.

On the subject of arc rifles being good: breachers have heavier versions of them as their basic gun, so you might look at them to spam. Even meshes with the army of renown, I guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 22:59:10


 
   
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ryzouken wrote:
I could see canticles getting similar treatment to command protocols from the cron dex.

On the subject of arc rifles being good: breachers have heavier versions of them as their basic gun, so you might look at them to spam. Even meshes with the army of renown, I guess.

Hmmm. Those are HEAVY Arc Rifles. Arc Rifles went from D1 Dd3 against vehicles to Dd3 D3 against vehicles. The Heavy Arc Rifles are currently Dd3 Dd6 against vehicles. Could they possibly go to Dd6 D6 against vehicles?
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Admech are probably going to experience a ground up approach like DG. So much of it will change, because the book came out so early in 8th.
After seeing Death Guard and Drukhari, I would expect to see many of the same names with differences in the rules. Don't expect the same 8th Edition Canticles. Expect more unit adjustments for statlines, special rules, and weapon profiles.
   
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And fewer options within squads.

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