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I have not played Daemons in over a year now. They simply were too powerful and I could not find a challenging game with them. Now 8th is here I want to try to bring them out. Are they still too powerful?

Let me know what you think of this list. In the absence of Errata for Daemons I assume the horrors miscast effect and rules for horrors being assigned spells remain as in their army book.

30 Horrors, Full command, Icon of Sorcery
30 Horrors, Full command, Icon of Sorcery

30 Blood Letters, Full Command (may run them in horde Formation).

5 Flesh Hounds
6 Flesh Hounds

2 Fiends

2 Heralds of Tzentch, Power Vortex
1 Herald of Khorne, Fire storm blade, Armor of Khorne, Juggernaught, BSB, Standard of Victory.

2250pts


Let me know what you think

Apparently there is to be PDF erratas for every army book. Things like who gets the 'stomp' rule and for specific rules that have been altered by the new rules.

I think daemons have been bought back to the pack somewhat (flamers will still be insanely overpowered for price) but all bets are off until the dust settles in about 6 months and we can truely see how it all pans out.

Bloodcrushers get the stomp attack

I think daemons will be worse because magic is worse.

The horrors are not really going to be affected by the new magic rules (with regard to spell selection and miscasts). Their rules still take precedence.

I'm glad though because I can actually play my daemons in fantasy now!!

A demons player eh... Go sit in the corner!

Killjoy00 wrote:
The horrors are not really going to be affected by the new magic rules (with regard to spell selection and miscasts). Their rules still take precedence.

We have no idea how the PDF erratas will work and what they will change.

what exactly do you guys mean when you say erratas

I think daemons have been bought back to the pack somewhat (flamers will still be insanely overpowered for price) but all bets are off until the dust settles in about 6 months and we can truely see how it all pans out.

I've been thinking about this A LOT the past two days (as a DoC player) and I have come to the conclusion that I disagree.

The Daemons are still insanely good.

What's gotten worse? Flesh Hounds and Fiends. They aren't as fast compared to everything else as before. What's gotten better? Well, Bloodletters for example. A unit of 12 Bloodletters attacks with every model (2 ranks of 6 models) the same amount of times as 6 Flesh Hounds do. They also carry a standard that gives them 3D6+5" charge range (average 15,5" - 0,5" faster than Flesh Hounds) and +1 resolution and a point into the break point scenario. They have the same amount of wounds as 6 Flesh Hounds, albeit at a lower toughness, but with killing blow, and at a cheaper price.

What would the list look like then? Well, the lord Bloodthirster and a level 2 Tzeentch Herald with Master of Sorcery, and a Juggernaut Herald with the usual Firestorm Blade and Armour. Help these guys out with something like 5 small units of Bloodletters, a unit of Furies and 12 Flamers. Flamers can march and shoot now making them wicked sick, and this army has an insanely good magic phase too on top of everything (6 spells from any rulebook lore and 2D6+1/6 dice). I'd also probably throw the Tz Herald on a chariot since that adds one flying threat to the list and chariots can't be instakilled anymore.

This army is definately tier 1.

Casper wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:
The horrors are not really going to be affected by the new magic rules (with regard to spell selection and miscasts). Their rules still take precedence.

We have no idea how the PDF erratas will work and what they will change.

Perhaps, but as long as they receive spells selected for them and aren't rolling, they're immune to the rules regarding duplicate spells.

ernshmagl wrote:what exactly do you guys mean when you say erratas

They are these pdf's that can be found on the GW web site that clarify problems with the army books/codexes and rule books.

You should be on the outlook for the ones that relates to your army so you know what's going on with it. Trust me, there is nothing worse then showing up to a game only to find out that something you use has totally changes in the Errata that you haven't looked at.

K. Thanks for the info

Right, but I doubt the errata will say anything about the Horrors. The new rulebook is clear that if you are forced to have certain spells, the new rules for spell selection don't prevent you from having those spells. And the rule for miscast is pretty clear -no reason to think it'd change.

The rule book may say something, but remember that the army books over rule what is written in the rule book. Also the book was written for 7th ed, not 8th. so hopefully an errata will be released when the the new rule book comes out so we know what is going to happen.

To be safe (and if I were you), if you don't have the models don't buy them until you get the new rule book in hand and hope that an errata comes out at the same time.

Turalon, that's my point. The army book says - Horrors must have these spells and miscasts are instead dealt with as d6 hits on the unit.

There is no conflict in the army book with anything in the new BRB. There is no conflict with the new miscast... you just would take d6 hits. There is no conflict with spell selection because the BRB is clear that if you are forced to have certain spells then the BRB issues no limitations on that selection.

Therefore, there is no reason to think there will be any errata. This isn't like TK or High Elves ASF or any number of other situations where possibly aren't clear. Both army book and rulebook are very clear on what happens with horrors and there shouldn't be any confusion - therefore, I would be highly surprised if any errata were issued that changed this.

Well I still think that there will be an errata which will make it clear, but yes I do agree with you. Just be prepared for long conversations with people mid match who don't understand up till then.

When are the erratas suppose to be up anybody know??

Offhand, that bloodthirster is going to suffer some from No-guess warmachine shooting that can see through forests (and stone throwers can even shoot at things they can't see now!)

The horrors will still be ok to cast, but remember: there's a maximum of 12 PD in your pool at once. Maybe you'll have 12 every turn (I consider this unlikely) but you'll have to spread them out.

I play empire, and my empire guys have cheap bound spells which now have to have dice rolled for them. I found that it was hard, what with rolling for the winds of magic, to get more than 1-2 spells off per turn... and this is for spells that only need 4-5 to cast. It's simply not effective to take an extremely magic-heavy list any more, as you'll end each turn sitting on spells that you could have used for something else.

Accordingly, I think magic-heavy daemon lists have gotten less effective, and daemonic combat units have gotten a slight buff, but since everybody else's combat units got a MAJOR buff, the daemon book is still relatively less powerful. Certainly a bloodthirster can't run right through a large, ranked-up block on his own any more, because if even 10 of them survive, they will be stubborn.

Totally agree with everything, it is just a matter of degree. Magic is less good, but there's a lot different from comparing your Empire bound spells (which don't get a + to cast and don't really have anything else to boost) to Tzeentch level casters, getting extra pd, bonuses to cast, etc. With plus to cast and many wizards, they can attempt almost all their spells on 2 dice, many on 1. On an average winds of magic roll, you are looking at 6-7 spells easy. Remember Tz lore also has a 3+ spell to get more power dice. The 12 limitations is only at once, so cast a few, have a herald boost back up. Etc. You have some options.

And yes, a Bloodthister can't break ranks. But it's not like they will be doing much damage back and he will kill them. It just means he only destroys 2 units in a game instead of 4. And remember if a stone thrower fires without line of sight, it scatters no matter what. (Just less scatter if you roll a hit).

Don't forget that flamers are significantly better now as well. Being able to march and shoot is a nice buff for their small range. And you can take two of them as well as Bloodcrusher or Fiend. (4 units of flamers at 3k!)

I still think that a lot of the demon units will change a lot when the new errata come out. There are so many problems which can go either way.

There are also a lot of the old wrong rumours still floting around which is causing much confusion over 8th ed rules.

Maybe I just need to wait to get the rule book and sit down with it for a while before making any sound conclusions about demons.

I think daemons will need the least errata. Most of their rules are pretty clear and within their own army book. The only thing that comes to mind is Blue Scribes.

Which wrong rumors are affecting the perception of Daemons?

Killjoy00 wrote: Which wrong rumors are affecting the perception of Daemons?

Sorry, that comment was rather off topic. I have noticed in other threads and on other forums that people are still posting crap opinions about 8th ed, even though people can go down to the GW and look at a copy of it.

Also I wouldn't mind a Q & A about how horrors work in 8th, just for clarification from GW.

nieto666 wrote:When are the erratas suppose to be up anybody know??

GW said they are being released with the new rulebook

*voice of many demons* we will always be showing our faces for we are the legion of the warp. The oozing chaos that lurks in the back of your mind. For everytime you want to declare war, give hope, indulge, or desecrate we will be there waiting. *ends voice*


huh? what happend oh yeah check the errata however I think demons are still going to be a soild stable army. Im using the same list for 2 games with a few changes. However I think I might overhaul it and switch to warriors of chaos. But look at it, get a demo and then decide. Personally I prefered last edition so I can grab many power units rather than relying on blocks.

Turalon wrote:

Sorry, that comment was rather off topic. I have noticed in other threads and on other forums that people are still posting crap opinions about 8th ed, even though people can go down to the GW and look at a copy of it.

Yea, I completely agree. That's why I've been trying to monitor things on here as best I can

why worry about the demon errata as they are getting the first new book after 8th is released in august i think.

so dont both tooling up new demons as they are getting a new book right away.

Daemons are most certainly not getting a new book in August. They are getting a wave release, like O&G just got. I can't imagine Daemons will be any of the next 2-4 books (TK and OK for sure).

But knowing GW, they may just release a new book just to spite all the OK, Tomb Kings and other players dying for a new book.

Im happy with the book I have thank you very much

One thing to say: Fiends. Nice touch. I don't see them played enough, even though they are quite good. Maybe not the best, but good.

I think fiends average charge is a little smaller now, right?

Killjoy00 wrote:Turalon, that's my point. The army book says - Horrors must have these spells and miscasts are instead dealt with as d6 hits on the unit.

There is no conflict in the army book with anything in the new BRB. There is no conflict with the new miscast... you just would take d6 hits. There is no conflict with spell selection because the BRB is clear that if you are forced to have certain spells then the BRB issues no limitations on that selection.

Therefore, there is no reason to think there will be any errata. This isn't like TK or High Elves ASF or any number of other situations where possibly aren't clear. Both army book and rulebook are very clear on what happens with horrors and there shouldn't be any confusion - therefore, I would be highly surprised if any errata were issued that changed this.

Unless the Errata released by GW changes this.

Remember, errata aren't FAQ's; they are changes to the rules that appear in the rule book or army book.

Nothing in any army book is safe, theoretically, from being hit by the errata stick. Just because there is no apparent conflict with an army book and the new edition's rules, there is no reason to automatically assume that no errata will affect the situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Killjoy00 wrote: The 12 limitations is only at once, so cast a few, have a herald boost back up. Etc. You have some options.

Hey, could you point me to where this is spelled out in the new book? I play DE, and would like to make sure about this. All I could find when I was reading the book over the weekend was the statement that you could never have more than 12 PD; I don't recall it saying "not more than 12 PD at any given time."