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My friend and I were looking at weapon profiles and saw that the shotgun is different for the IG and SM. The SM version is S4 while the IG version is S3, why? We also thought that it would be nice if range was incresed to 18" and if the target was with in however many inches (9" perhaps) it would increase the strength of the shotgun (double it or add 2?) as well as an increse in AP (maybe just to 6 or 5). Other wise what is the point of taking shotguns, they have the same S and AP as a lasrifle with less range?

The IG shotgun is different to the SM shotgun because apprentley the IG aren't good enough for the SM shotgun
and the SM shotgun is only issued to SM
...I lost myself a long time ago

Actually it's just that they use different kinds of ammunition.

Melissia wrote:Actually it's just that they use different kinds of ammunition.

Do the SM use a larger gauge of shell?

IIRC it was shotguns with manstoppers, which are special ammunition made to penetrate armor better without causing less damage, but that doesn't quite match the stats.

Scouts aren't in power armor, so they don't require as huge a weapon as marines in it do (marine power armor is not good for fine manipulation).

RedGuardian73 wrote:Other wise what is the point of taking shotguns, they have the same S and AP as a lasrifle with less range?

The point is that you can shoot and then assault.

Right. You use two flamers, a heavy flamer, six shotguns, and a shotugn/powerfist sergeant on a grenadiers veteran squad. Fire those flamers, and all those shotguns, and assault.

Never thought of it like that. I'm more of a shooty kind of player though. What about the shotgun rules I posted?

I would love an IG shotgun to either be 18" Assault 2 with S4 for anything under 9" (I'd be happy with 12" and 6" respectively). I always thought you should have the option of firing a slug (same stats as now, or S4) or buckshot/whatever (S2 with either Blast, Template or Twin-linked to represent the hail of lead flying at you).

Who cares? Shotguns will always suck. S3 can barely kill guants or orks. Totally useless.

Anyway,sorry if that sounded mean.

But who could resist the feeling of joy when a shotty vet blows something face off. Makes ya think of all of your fav. action heros.

Shoddy to the body!!!!

Melissia wrote:Right. You use two flamers, a heavy flamer, six shotguns, and a shotugn/powerfist sergeant on a grenadiers veteran squad. Fire those flamers, and all those shotguns, and assault.

I play-tested this once. Racked up enough hits to kill half a tac-squad and then killed two more in combat. In one turn I effectivly took out over half a squad of marines with one IG squad, doesn't matter how the rest of the game goes, that still happened.

RedGuardian73 wrote:My friend and I were looking at weapon profiles and saw that the shotgun is different for the IG and SM. The SM version is S4 while the IG version is S3, why?

You miss the simplest reason, Because the rules say so.

Never quite got this. The Human ig shotfun is s3, the sm one is 4, and the ogryn combat shotfun is 5. Ogryn I kinda understand but still it doesn't quite make sense. Not sure but I would like to see the option to pay the points for an upgrade to higher strength shotfun shells.

RedGuardian73 wrote:Never thought of it like that. I'm more of a shooty kind of player though. What about the shotgun rules I posted?

I don’t see much value in them, to be honest. Where a rifle, with a real world effective range of 200-300m is given a range of 24” in game, it’s a stretch to think a shotgun should be 18”, because a shotgun just isn’t effective out to that range.

A shotgun is a specialist weapon, for close quarters, room breaching and the like. The way it’s reflected right now makes players use them for one rapid volley before piling into assault. Used in conjunction with flamethrowers it can be a decent option, and somewhat reflective of how shotguns would be used.

Expanding that range out to 18” and you’ve built a unit that would maintain a steady rate of fire out to medium range while staying on the move. This could be an interesting unit, but it wouldn’t reflect how shotguns are deployed in combat.

Try Again Bragg wrote:Never quite got this. The Human ig shotfun is s3, the sm one is 4, and the ogryn combat shotfun is 5. Ogryn I kinda understand but still it doesn't quite make sense. Not sure but I would like to see the option to pay the points for an upgrade to higher strength shotfun shells.

I mean, a genetically engineered superhuman is bigger than a human, is therefore able to carry a bigger shotgun which is reflected in the marine shotgun having a higher strength in game. Ogryns are bigger again, and so fire an even bigger gun with an even higher strength in game. It’s a really simple thing.

What I think needs to be done is either you fire slugs or shot.

Slugs are R18", S4 AP- Assault 2
Shot is S2 AP-, Assault 1 Template (or maybe 12" and blast?)

Mostly for amusement's sake rather than balance or realism.

Maybe Shotguns should become:

Template S3 AP- Assault 2

But only useable in cityfight missions

Melissia wrote:Actually it's just that they use different kinds of ammunition.

Actually I think you'll find they used to be Str 3 in the last SM codex and were bumped up to 4 in the new codex. The reasoning would be GW's classic selling tactics that "no one is using shotguns so lets make them better so poeple buy our stuff"

Melissia wrote:What I think needs to be done is either you fire slugs or shot.

Slugs are R18", S4 AP- Assault 2
Shot is S2 AP-, Assault 1 Template (or maybe 12" and blast?)

Mostly for amusement's sake rather than balance or realism.

I think that's overpowered. That slug mode is arguably more useful than a boltgun.

Then bump it down to 12".

Shotgun- S8 AP4 Assault6

This would be a human shotgun, against other humans. A shotgun in the face would probably kill you.

Yeah, but then a bbgun shooting a bb through the eye would probably kill you, or at least feth you up and render you unable to fight.

Well first thing: SM Shotguns are BIG. like REALLY big, like OMFG THAT'S AN EFFING MINIGUN big. Therefore they can use larger shells, which have more propellant, which makes them more powerful.

Second thing: Space marine weapons are made to a higher standard than Imperial Guard weapons. So most of the time they'll always perform a little better.

Third thing: Only scouts get to wield shotguns, and you can't field that many scouts. You CAN field a whole tonne of IG with shotguns.

Corennus wrote:Well first thing: SM Shotguns are BIG. like REALLY big, like OMFG THAT'S AN EFFING MINIGUN big. Therefore they can use larger shells, which have more propellant, which makes them more powerful.

Second thing: Space marine weapons are made to a higher standard than Imperial Guard weapons. So most of the time they'll always perform a little better.

Third thing: Only scouts get to wield shotguns, and you can't field that many scouts. You CAN field a whole tonne of IG with shotguns.

Would just like to point out that all the art work I have seen from GW shows shotguns to be slightly bigger in comparrasion to modern day and not minigun size. I'd also point out that you can field 60 scouts all armed with shotguns legally in a single FOC.

Although I do like the idea of an alternative shot.

And to go along with HellsGuardian's post:

Which is the exact same amount of shotguns as can be fielded by Guard.

Melissia wrote:What I think needs to be done is either you fire slugs or shot.

Slugs are R18", S4 AP- Assault 2
Shot is S2 AP-, Assault 1 Template (or maybe 12" and blast?)

Mostly for amusement's sake rather than balance or realism.

Glad you included that last line...essentially you have created something better than Lasguns...why would anyone ever take the flashlights again?

I'd be fine with normal IG shotguns being S4, for 1 pt each. Simple, and worthwhile for assault grenadiers.

Another thought just occured to me. Why do veterans get shotguns? And then, why for free?

Because veterans are often used to assault fixed positions.

And they get them for free because they're basically just 12" lasguns that you can assault after firing.

An IG shotgun to a SM shotgun is to a autogun to a bolter.