Letter to FLGS Manager

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**Brother Ramses**

So I wrote this email to my FLGS manager regarding a tournament I took part in and a bad gaming experience with one of the players. Think it was enough to get him to look into it and maybe talk to the kid's dad? Like I mention in the letter, plenty of people actually complimented me on my patience which tells me this isn't the first instance of this kid and his playstyle.

Hey XXXXX,

Good times at the tournament this weekend and thanks for working on getting me in on the 2nd round even though I was late coming up from XXXX. I wanted to talk to you about a few things that came up with my last game.

I don't remember the little kid's name, but he was my last opponent on table 4 with the Imperial Guard tank line. I was actually warned sarcastically by one of your other regulars there (guy that comes in with his girl and they paint together) to "have fun" to which I thought he meant facing a ton of shooting but he was warning me against playing him.

Now a couple of things could be passed off as just either forgetting your unit stats or weapon stats,

1. He kept trying to fire everything in his army at BS 4. Even after telling him pretty much everything in his army was BS 3, he would still try and pick up rolls of 3 as hits and claiming his Vendetta and Valkyrie were better with BS 4.
2. He kept wanting to use his Hellhound Inferno Cannon with a range of 24" not 12". He used it at 24" for his previous Eldar opponent.
3. He tried to use his Medusa as range to the whole table, not 36", to which his dad even stepped in to tell him he had a Medusa and it was 36" just like he had used in the previous game against Eldar (pointing out that he knew it was 36" not table wide.)
4. Claimed his Vendetta/Valkrie got a 4+ cover save for moving 6" since they were Fast vehicles.
5. Didn't give correct points for what I destroyed at the end of the game.

So those things were just an annoyance of always having to check his army list to verify if BS and his weapon/unit abilities to correct him. The same guy who had warned me also was helping me correct the kid from the kid's army list. However, it wasn't until the end of the game that two real issues to me came up:

The last mission was Seize Ground to which we rolled for and received 4 objectives. As we were placing objectives, he tried to place one in a building in his deployment zone to which I objected, as did the guy who had warned me about playing this kid, because it was clearly within 12" of his table edge. He instead placed it in some ruins in the middle of the board. The last 3 objectives were placed on the board without any problems. The 4 objectives were on the board, clearly, the entire game. Now both you and XXXX saw that when you called 5 minutes, we could not start turn 5 without finishing it to which caused him to get angry because I held one objective at the end of turn 4, and he did not.

Now both you and XXXX mention that running out of time and not claiming objectives in time is part of the game. At that point he is on the verge of crying and he accuses me of stalling, which to me is basically calling me a cheater. Now I may not be a regular up there, but plenty of your regulars have played me and know I am not a cheater, but also a fun to guy to play against, even when I lose. I have not had anyone at XXXXX accuse me of cheating or say that they had a bad game because of me in the (I list several tournaments I have played at said store)

So the second real issue comes up in that he reaches inside of the very same building he was not allowed to originally place an objective because it was too close to the table edge and tries to claim he has control of that objective. What he didn't notice was another person standing behind him, watching him place said objective in the ruins as he is trying to tell me that it was there the whole time. The other person looked directly at me and said out loud, "There was nothing there. He just put it there.". The guy that originally warned me even tells him that it couldn't be there because we had told him at the beginning of the game that it was too close to the table edge to be placed in that location. This last action was what really pushed me to write you this letter because after that he was telling everyone, including his father, that the reason why he lost was because he made a mistake of guarding an objective that wasn't there.

So I played an entire game against a kid that I was warned about playing, to which he proved them right with his cheating/rules oversights, I then get outright called a cheater by him saying I was stalling the entire game, he blatantly tries to sneak another objective on the table, and then walks around the store to anyone that asks how he did in his last game telling them he got cheated.

Plenty of people came up to me to express how much more patient I was then them in dealing with this kid and plenty of people came up to me rolling their eyes hearing his excuses and congratulated me on the win, but I still don't appreciate having a cheater and a sore loser running off at the mouth about me. I saw his dad playing in the first round with his Nid's and he looked and was acting like a stand-up fun guy to play, but with his kid spouting off everything he could to him at the end of the tournament, I didn't think it would have been to productive to approach him about his kid and how he plays.

Overall, I had a great time. Had a great game against the Eldar player in the 2nd round with him just barely getting a draw on the very last roll of the game and I got to beat a blatant cheater. I just didn't appreciate how the kid reacted and spouted off afterward to other people I haven't gotten a chance to game with much less even know or be called out as a cheater when I am far from it.

Cya next week when I am up again,

XXXXX XXXXX

**SilverMK2**

A pretty reasonably written email. Though obviously I was not there and don't know the people involved so I can't say how accurate it is, at least it is a polite and well structured complaint

**Brother Ramses**

SilverMK2 wrote:A pretty reasonably written email. Though obviously I was not there and don't know the people involved so I can't say how accurate it is, at least it is a polite and well structured complaint

Yea, I am just looking for comments on the formality of writing a letter to a tournament organizer/store manager. The accuracy can easily be verified by the store manager just by asking his friends who were watching the game.

**jgemrich**

What are you hoping to accomplish with this letter? It is just reciting facts of the situation but no where do you provide the TO/LGS owner with a solution for a problem he did not cause. No one likes to be called or accused but if you already talked to the owner then why the letter?

Good chance the kid may be at another event, will you be disappointed if he is allowed to play in another event? I think the letter needs to be less about the situation (specifics are good but I stopped reading about 1/2 through then skipped to the end) but more about why it created a situation that was uncomfortable and not a lot of fun. And what you and your friend may choose to do next time a tournament is happens.

Help the LGS owner understand that you may not play in future events with this type of person, perhaps recommend an age limit to entry...or ages under 15 permitted with supervising adult. I am also not sure if little kid is 10 or 16. Or where in between.

In the ages of 10 to 14 kids are still learning how to interact with older kids and adults. While they understand right or wrong, they still make poor judgments and they often don't see the consequences of their actions but rather hold a singular focus on the desired result (win).

If I were writing a letter it would be....

"We spoke about the specifics at the tournament. "This personXXX, consistently had issues with using the correct stats line for vehicles, infantry and weapons. Myself and several friends struggled to have a good time while playing XXX. I want to be clear that I don't mind assisting a NOOB across the table when they make an honest error, but consistent and blatant disregard for the rules left me with only one conclusion, that this young person really only cared about winning and rules didn't seem to matter. The other intolerable action was his accusations about his opponents, cheating" or "robbing" him of victory.

I know this type of situation places you in a tough spot. As an LGS owner, I'm sure you want to be inclusive of all gamers, but I'd hope you want to ensure that everyone is having a good time at these events. Might I recommend an age limit for a tournament of 16 YO. Perhaps younger players may attend if they either play on a team with an adult helper or are supervised by an adult. This ensures that they have a mentor in guiding them through some tough situations that has more influence on their behavior.

If you find a chance to speak to their parent when they are next in the store... help the father understand the concerns of the players in the last event (especially since he was one of them). Perhaps he also has some insight (and influence) on his son's behavior.

Regards,

YYY

**mikhaila**

As a LGS owner, I actually would really appreciate all the facts and small details that are in your letter. It explains things very well, and shows the level of bending the rules your opponent was up to. Also gives reference of people who could verify things, and reminders as to the situation and how it tied into the tournament.
Just trying to kick out youunger players is NOT the answer, especially for a store trying to build business. That would make all younger players a problem, not just this one. And this one would be a problem probably when he hits 20, if not corrected. It's attitude, not age. Many of them aren't going to be able to have an older helper at tournemants. And frankly, many 13-15 year olds can play in tournaments just fine at the local level. They won't get better if they don't play.

Good letter. Follow it up with a phone call, and talk to the owner.

**Irdiumstern**

I certainly think you worded the letter well. I'm not sure what it will accomplish, but I don't think there's much of anything else you could do to resolve this.

**WhiteRaven**

If you are there on a semi-regular basis, another option would be to try and catch the dad at the start of the next tournament.

I like the tone of the letter and the specifics help to make your story verifiable with some of the other regulars. Hopefully the owner will take some action (probation/monitoring for the individual involved to see if its a trend, and further steps if the behavior continues would be my choice) to help correct the situation.

I understand that owners don't like to lose customers, but if 1 cancer is left it will eventually cost him many customers who will associate his store with the behavior of the cancer.

Later,
WR

**Frazzled**

Letter's fine and reasonably polite. I am not sure what it ill accomplish however.

I would NOT try to contact the dad. The response you get may be the response I'd give you as a dad. God help you if it brought its mom and you tried to talk to her. But I hear they are doing wonders with skin graft surgery these days...

**number9dream**

Frazzled, while I can see it being a lot easier/smoother for the LGS owner to talk to the dad (being a neutral 3rd party and all), it sort of sounded like the dad was at least a little bit aware of his son plays (i.e correcting him pointedly about the medusa's range). Of course, maybe I'm being too idealistic when I think this means he'd be open to criticism

**grizgrin**

jgemrich wrote:What are you hoping to accomplish with this letter? ...

YYY

Taking age into account of behavior certainly has some solid foundations and value. Prehaps you should have done so with OP.

Frazzled wrote:Letter's fine and reasonably polite. I am not sure what it ill accomplish however.

I would NOT try to contact the dad. The response you get may be the response I'd give you as a dad. God help you if it brought its mom and you tried to talk to her. But I hear they are doing wonders with skin graft surgery these days...

Wait, what? His dad was standing right there calling his son out on some of these errors (and they were errors, whether in rules knowledge or judgement. Prolly judgement.). admittedly someone could bring this up with the 'rents and do it way wrong, but asking the father if maybe he had a long talk with his son about it with a view toward making him a better player certainly wouldnt be out of line.

**jgemrich**

grizgrin wrote:
jgemrich wrote:What are you hoping to accomplish with this letter? ...

YYY

Taking age into account of behavior certainly has some solid foundations and value. Prehaps you should have done so with OP.

Huh? Not sure what you are trying to say here?

**Frazzled**

number9dream wrote:Frazzled, while I can see it being a lot easier/smoother for the LGS owner to talk to the dad (being a neutral 3rd party and all), it sort of sounded like the dad was at least a little bit aware of his sons play (i.e correcting him pointedly about the medusa's range). Of course, maybe I'm being too idealistic when I think this means he'd be open to criticism

Do you have a burning desire to visit an emergency room? Do you want to be beaten to death?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wait, what? His dad was standing right there calling his son out on some of these errors (and they were errors, whether in rules knowledge or judgement. Prolly judgement.). admittedly someone could bring this up with the 'rents and do it way wrong, but asking the father if maybe he had a long talk with his son about it with a view toward making him a better player certainly wouldnt be out of line.

I restate, do you like pain?

He doesn't know you from Adam and you aint

to him.

The best method is have a TO/judge to watch his future games or someone duly appointed by the TO. If it shows up it is watched and kicked out at first opportunity.
Not knowing the rules-age appropriate.
Outright in any game this would be cheating, cheating? Shouldn't be allowed in future tournaments.

EDIT: here's how I'd view as a Dad. Now I'm biased in that my kids don't cheat, and regularly win competitions in a variety of events- has nothing to do with me. but thats where I'd be coming from.

At the game-statements made were appropriate. Little Timmah needs to learn how to do this, but I will be watchful pseudo pervs aren't trying to cheat either.
Outside of game? You come up to me saying little Timmah is a cheater blah blah
"

you. Who the

do you think you are?

Who the

are you, having to get your jollies playing tlittle kids you

! Also why exactly are you playing with little toy soldiers you perv? Must not get out of your mom's basement very much. " If you even looked at me funny I'd have to unleash the weiners, and the Shanker hasn't bitten anyone in at least 3 days. Again God help you if SWMBO is around. She'll run over you with a minivan, and thats just parking... once she finds out and hears you, ooohhhh its gonna be bad....

**grizgrin**

Frazz, threats are totally uncalled for here. No one has threatened you or your children.

**Frazzled**

grizgrin wrote:Frazz, threats are totally uncalled for here. No one has threatened you or your children.

Reading comprehension, it does wonders.
I am not in any way threatening you. I'm stating what would happen if you made the epic mistake of trying to talk to the dad.

I'll also state I'm one of the more restrained dad's I know. Other dads are like...mean and stuff.

**helgrenze**

I get Frazz's point. If you don't know the father as a regular opponant, or other association, then he may well have a hostile reaction to your criticising his offspring. If both father and son play regularly at that store, then they more than likely have some kind of relationship with the owner/TO. From that perspective, the father may take a nicer attitude on the issue.

**Frazzled**

Exactly. If the dad is paying atention in gaming, its much better there and can be part of a older kid/younger kid tutorial. Absent that, it canbe taken the wrong way, especially if the OP is way older than munchkin but significantly younger than the dad.

When Z played cards as a kid, they would point things out to do/not do and I'd be fine as he would learn. If some freaktard older teenager came up to me before a game and said Z was a cheater its completely different. He might get to test the theory of whether or not he can handle Enraged Psycho Dad.

**Lorek**

You expect a father to react with violence after his child has been accused of cheating?

I was going to use hyperbole to mock that, but it seems that you have beaten me to the punch.

It's clear that YOU would react with violence to an accusation of your son cheating, but not all parents would react that way. Of COURSE you're on your child's side, but that should not mean that you believe your child unconditionally. I would be shocked if someone actually attacked me for that. I can understand being upset at getting unsolicited parenting advice, but if you're willing to commit unprovoked violence in front of your children, you're teaching them that violence is the correct way to handle problems.

I find that even bringing that up in this topic is in poor taste, and inflammatory.

**Neconilis**

I agree with Lorek over Frazzled... Today is a strange and confusing day thus far.

**number9dream**

Do you have a burning desire to visit an emergency room? Do you want to be beaten to death?

I thought you were the guy who usually brings up the fact that 95% of all Texans own guns and that starting fist fights is therefore stupid? :/

More seriously, if you'd react that way to someone asking you to talk to your son, you have issues. I wouldn't expect you to take some strangers word for it, but if brought up properly, I wouldn't expect to get punched in the face for it either. I think violence is justified in a good number of circumstances, more than most probably, but not over a politely raised concern.
I also find it fairly bizarre that you'd automatically label anyone who plays this game over the age of whatever you deem appropriate, a perv, considering you are quite obviously no spring chicken yourself.

As I said from the get-go, I agree that talking to the store owner is the easiest solution.

**Neconilis**

Also (to say something at least mildly related), I agree that what you say in the letter is fine OP. As I'd certainly be upset if I were in a similar situation.

What many others are saying is correct though. You need to make it clear as to what you'd like to happen and what your actions will be if it does and if it does not.

Because more than likely the store owner's highest priority is money, and if you're going to keep heading up there, participating in events and buying stuff regardless then what incentive does the owner have to change?

Oh, I do agree that talking with the father is likely a bad idea. I'd default to thinking he is either ignorant of the level his son would appear to be ruining the gaming experience of others and therefore would become offended when presented with the actuality of the situation (Especially as the truth of the matter seems no mystery to anyone paying attention). Or, despite knowing he simply doesn't care, and if he doesn't care now then he's not going to suddenly start caring just because you (or any other player for that matter) has told him about the issues directly.

**grizgrin**

ninjaed. what lorek said.

**helgrenze**

A parent is more likely to accept certain types of criticism from people they have an ongoing relationship with. That is someone they talk to and interact with on a regular basis. The FLGS owner would be in a better situation with the father than some guy that played against his kid once in a tournament last week.
Parents tend to give a more hostile reaction to what they would consider "unsolicited" advice/criticism concerning their child. Especially if that kind of comment is coming from a virtual stranger.
And though "Hostile" does not mean "violent", some parents find the line blurred when their children are involved.

**Frazzled**

Lorek wrote:You expect a father to react with violence after his child has been accused of cheating?

I was going to use hyperbole to mock that, but it seems that you have beaten me to the punch.

It's clear that YOU would react with violence to an accusation of your son cheating, but not all parents would react that way. Of COURSE you're on your child's side, but that should not mean that you believe your child unconditionally. I would be shocked if someone actually attacked me for that. I can understand being upset at getting unsolicited parenting advice, but if you're willing to commit unprovoked violence in front of your children, you're teaching them that violence is the correct way to handle problems.

I find that even bringing that up in this topic is in poor taste, and inflammatory.

Lorek clearly you have not had your morning shot of sterno.
I didn't say I'd be violent. I'd say I'd cuss you out. What happens after that would be up to you.
Now a mother would be violent.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

number9dream wrote:
Do you have a burning desire to visit an emergency room? Do you want to be beaten to death?

I thought you were the guy who usually brings up the fact that 95% of all Texans own guns and that starting fist fights is therefore stupid? :/

More seriously, if you'd react that way to someone asking you to talk to your son, you have issues. I wouldn't expect you to take some strangers word for it, but if brought up properly, I wouldn't expect to get punched in the face for it either. I think violence is justified in a good number of circumstances, more than most probably, but not over a politely raised concern.
I also find it fairly bizarre that you'd automatically label anyone who plays this game over the age of whatever you deem appropriate, a perv, considering you are quite obviously no spring chicken yourself.

As I said from the get-go, I agree that talking to the store owner is the easiest solution.

You're not getting it. I'd say thats how a father would react. You're talking like a dad would know anything about the game or culture. odds are he doesn't know anything about the game and is just a dad, who some punk teenager just said his kid was cheating. ZEveryone is acting like I'm saying this directly to the OT. You've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn.

Here's a test. Go to a soccer game. Lots of parents. Tell them their kid is cheating. get back to me on how they reacted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

helgrenze wrote:A parent is more likely to accept certain types of criticism from people they have an ongoing relationship with. That is someone they talk to and interact with on a regular basis. The FLGS owner would be in a better situation with the father than some guy that played against his kid once in a tournament last week.
Parents tend to give a more hostile reaction to what they would consider "unsolicited" advice/criticism concerning their child. Especially if that kind of comment is coming from a virtual stranger.
And though "Hostile" does not mean "violent", some parents find the line blurred when their children are involved.

Exactly.

**Droofus**

Here's a test. Go to a soccer game. Lots of parents. Tell them their kid is cheating. get back to me on how they reacted.

Are you suggesting that parents might get emotionally invested in the success or failure of their kid in warhammer in the same way that they would with soccer?

"Warhammer Moms". God help us all.

**Polonius**

So, swearing at somebody that raised a completely true and reasonable complaint about your child is your default reaction?

Maybe my parents were borderline negligent, but they showed me that you should treat people with respect, hear them out, and decide if they're points had merit.

Frankly, in a situation like the OP described, it might be worth taking a punch just to see such a clearly unfit parent taken into the state's custody.

@ OP: I think your letter is well written and even handed. I think that if you see the dad, and can speak to him rationally, I would at least consider a discussion. You can start by assuming that the kid was making mistakes due to being new. If the dad seems responsive, you can talk a bit about the game and the pretty clear cheating. If not, then walk away. Not all parents have their vision turn into a red haze when somebody questions their child, but some do have pretty big blind spots.

**Frazzled**

Polonius wrote:So, swearing at somebody that raised a completely true and reasonable complaint about your child is your default reaction?

Maybe my parents were borderline negligent, but they showed me that you should treat people with respect, hear them out, and decide if they're points had merit.

Frankly, in a situation like the OP described, it might be worth taking a punch just to see such a clearly unfit parent taken into the state's custody.

We don't punch in Texas. You guys haven't been around parents much with their kids have you...

Fine. Do what you want. I recommend you confront the dad. I double dutch recommend it. in fact, i recommend you confront the dad and kid together, in front of everyone. Your cause is righteous and this is serious business. After all the advice from the internet is never wrong.

**Polonius**

I've been around many parents in the real world, just not the Reagan era action movie you seem to still be living in.

**Frazzled**

Polonius wrote:I've been around many parents in the real world, just not the Reagan era action movie you seem to still be living in.

And yet you've missed the parent freakouts on bad ref calls, much less some stranger coming up to them and telling them their kid is a cheater. I doubt the veracity of your statement.

**Polonius**

No, you're right frazz. I'm thirty years old, and I've never met a single person that had a child. I was raised in an orphanage staffed entirely by childless orphans.

**Symbio Joe**

In before closed.