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Do the Tau believe in an afterlife? Do they have any type of spiritual religion (perhaps ancestor worship?) or are they an Atheistic society?

Don't be silly, they're communists.
They worship Blue Jeans.

There is no indication of anything like that.
As for What Really Happens in 40k, Tau don't have a strong enough warp presence to survive in any meaningful way after they die.

They're not communists but it does appear they're atheists.

The Greater Good ideal is a form of communism. Unfortunately, people assume communism is bad. The idea itself isnt. Its just at the moment, humans arent capable of it.
But no, they dont have any form of afterlife I know of. The do have a lot of rituals, I believe they are quite spiritual. Take the Ta'lissera (Bonding ceremony) the Fire Caste sometimes go through.

Wyvern wrote:The Greater Good ideal is a form of communism. Unfortunately, people assume communism is bad. The idea itself isnt. Its just at the moment, humans arent capable of it.
But no, they dont have any form of afterlife I know of. The do have a lot of rituals, I believe they are quite spiritual. Take the Ta'lissera (Bonding ceremony) the Fire Caste sometimes go through.

I know what communism is. You apparently do not. Castes are the complete antithesis of communism.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Wyvern wrote:The Greater Good ideal is a form of communism. Unfortunately, people assume communism is bad. The idea itself isnt. Its just at the moment, humans arent capable of it.
But no, they dont have any form of afterlife I know of. The do have a lot of rituals, I believe they are quite spiritual. Take the Ta'lissera (Bonding ceremony) the Fire Caste sometimes go through.

I know what communism is. You apparently do not. Castes are the complete antithesis of communism.

No a caste system isn't an antithesis to communism.

You seem to mix the theory / ideal and the practice.

A theoretical form of communism would not allow castes, a practical form does.


Possible castes:

- "working class"
- "soldiers"
- medium / higher ranking party members.
- ZK, secretary of the ( KPDSU,SED,...)


But afterlife hasn't much to do with their daily politics, so:

IIRC, the Tau live a short and maybe happy life, spending their time with the greater good.
Now since they got no burial in their fluff, were lost to assumptions if they believe in an afterlife.
The Tau could be too rationale to believe in deitys and afterlife anymore, so maybe its just a natural end to a normal life cycle for them? Seems they have statues and remember the deeds of the deceased. But the concept of demons and gods was not theirs to understand, so there is only life itself.

before this devolves further into a marx v. shas'el slugfest, I'd like to agree with ph34r. No warp presence = no soul. Furthermore in means no emotions.

Tau probably feel the same way about their deaths as the Tandy 300 my parents finally threw away last year. It's also why they have attempted to build a society based on logic and are willing to massacre anybody who gets in their way without blinking.

What else would you expect out of a race that is comprised entirely out of literal psychopaths?

They do have a warp presence. it is very powerful and highly focussed, like a laser beam compared to a flashlight.

The Tau soul is therefore superior to the normal human.

sure after the tau die they transform into little white bunny rabbits and hop on to the sunset (with rail rifles)

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Wyvern wrote:The Greater Good ideal is a form of communism. Unfortunately, people assume communism is bad. The idea itself isnt. Its just at the moment, humans arent capable of it.
But no, they dont have any form of afterlife I know of. The do have a lot of rituals, I believe they are quite spiritual. Take the Ta'lissera (Bonding ceremony) the Fire Caste sometimes go through.

I know what communism is. You apparently do not. Castes are the complete antithesis of communism.

No a caste system isn't an antithesis to communism.

You seem to mix the theory / ideal and the practice.

A theoretical form of communism would not allow castes, a practical form does.


Possible castes:

- "working class"
- "soldiers"
- medium / higher ranking party members.
- ZK, secretary of the ( KPDSU,SED,...)


But afterlife hasn't much to do with their daily politics, so:

IIRC, the Tau live a short and maybe happy life, spending their time with the greater good.
Now since they got no burial in their fluff, were lost to assumptions if they believe in an afterlife.
The Tau could be too rationale to believe in deitys and afterlife anymore, so maybe its just a natural end to a normal life cycle for them? Seems they have statues and remember the deeds of the deceased. But the concept of demons and gods was not theirs to understand, so there is only life itself.

I'm talking about "ideal" communism. The "practical" communism you describe is better described Totalitarianism.

If you read the Tau background material you really do not see a race of emotionless automatons that only pursue the goals of their race (See Tyranids and Necrons for that).

Here is my take on it. I think that the Tau/communism comparison is not accurate. Tau culture a fictionalization of real world Eastern philosophy that puts the needs of the group (family, nation, etc.) before the needs of the individual (just like the Imperium is a fictionalization of Political Catholicism during the during the Late Middle Ages). The tone of the Tau fluff about the Greater Good seems to be based on the three primary Eastern philosophies Taoism (Tau=Tao), Confucianism, and Buddhism. I seems fitting to me that they would have some sort of belief system as they go hand in hand with these philosophies . I could see the Tau believing in some sort of reincarnation (Whether they really are or not is another story) but with no real deity to speak of, or a religion that focuses on mediation on the Greater Good for enlightenment and purification (Sort of Buddhism meets Confucianism). However I could also see them pursing a secular humanists (Tauist?) philosophy that they should be good for the sake of being good but and maybe following cultural religious traditions that date back to prior to the advent of the philosophy of the Greater Good, but not accepting the reality of a deity or afterlife.

Ailaros wrote:before this devolves further into a marx v. shas'el slugfest, I'd like to agree with ph34r. No warp presence = no soul. Furthermore in means no emotions.

Tau probably feel the same way about their deaths as the Tandy 300 my parents finally threw away last year. It's also why they have attempted to build a society based on logic and are willing to massacre anybody who gets in their way without blinking.

What else would you expect out of a race that is comprised entirely out of literal psychopaths?

No warp presence doesn't neccessarily mean no emotions, it just means your emotions don't register in the warp. The warp isn't a collection of all emotion in the universe, it's just where most of it goes. The fluff mentions that all human emotions coalesce in the warp, and the same with several other races. The only explicitly mentioned races that don't have a warp presence are necrons and tau. Necrons didn't have a warp presence when they were necrontyr, and they were known for their bitterness towards their short lives and jealousy at the old ones. Those are emotions.
Although, that being said, Tau do have slightly dulled emotions, thanks to the space popes.

sluggaslugga wrote:sure after the tau die they transform into little white bunny rabbits and hop on to the sunset (with rail rifles)

slugga, shame on you! only the pathfinders get railrifles

Zookie wrote:If you read the Tau background material you really do not see a race of emotionless automatons that only pursue the goals of their race (See Tyranids and Necrons for that).

Here is my take on it. I think that the Tau/communism comparison is not accurate. Tau culture a fictionalization of real world Eastern philosophy that puts the needs of the group (family, nation, etc.) before the needs of the individual (just like the Imperium is a fictionalization of Political Catholicism during the during the Late Middle Ages). The tone of the Tau fluff about the Greater Good seems to be based on the three primary Eastern philosophies Taoism (Tau=Tao), Confucianism, and Buddhism. I seems fitting to me that they would have some sort of belief system as they go hand in hand with these philosophies . I could see the Tau believing in some sort of reincarnation (Whether they really are or not is another story) but with no real deity to speak of, or a religion that focuses on mediation on the Greater Good for enlightenment and purification (Sort of Buddhism meets Confucianism). However I could also see them pursing a secular humanists (Tauist?) philosophy that they should be good for the sake of being good but and maybe following cultural religious traditions that date back to prior to the advent of the philosophy of the Greater Good, but not accepting the reality of a deity or afterlife.

Personally i thought the Greater Good was a directed nod to The Eightfold Path to enlightenment by Buddha. And that the society as a whole was Zen-Buddhist, given everyone's desire to be good for the sake of being good, there want for peace in the galaxy. To be honest it fits the Cast system they have quite well, for those that don’t know it


There is no "lowest", or demeaned cast, the 4 primaries are all equal, they just have separate roles in Tau society. And if you take a look at something
Fire = Warriors/hunters, this is generally what everyone plays with/against in the game of 40K
Earth = workers/builders, these guys build all of those nifty STR 10 AP 1 guns everyone knows and loves
Water = traders/beurocrats, these guys move the money and do the trading within Tau and with races welcomed into the society
Air = Messengers/pilots, these guys are the Tau's equivalent of a Navy and directly compliment the Fire cast much like the US Navy compliments the USMC (they get them there, they do the fighting, and provide support as needed)
Eternal = The absolute leaders of Tau, the decide major campaigns, negotiations with other races, and guide the race in the pursuit of the Greater Good


Now I'm not sure how many people here have read Miyamoto Musashi, but each of these casts corresponds with one of the "Five Rings" (earth, fire, water, wind, void) which I believe even further pushes the notion that this society would/does likely support the idea of reincarnation

The Tau probably don't survive after death because their warp essence isn't even tantalizing enough for demons to nom on them.

I imagine they have chemical and physiological emotions, but they don't seem to have an effect on the warp, otherwise there'd be some greater good god or something.

Kilkrazy wrote:They do have a warp presence. it is very powerful and highly focussed, like a laser beam compared to a flashlight.

The Tau soul is therefore superior to the normal human.

Or very tiny and very useless, like an ember next to a flashlight

sluggaslugga wrote:sure after the tau die they transform into little white bunny rabbits and hop on to the sunset (with rail rifles)

this has, without a doubt, been the funniest image in my head today. thankyou sir for making me laugh. I will also know have to study the bunnies around the house, to insure they are not trying to take over.

2011: Games Workshop releases Codex: Warbunnies!

I also imagine them having shades.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're not communists but it does appear they're atheists.

How can you fight against demons and still be an atheist?

ph34r wrote:There is no indication of anything like that.
As for What Really Happens in 40k, Tau don't have a strong enough warp presence to survive in any meaningful way after they die.

I believe the current backstory is that it takes time for chaos to corrupt. I can't remember where I read it but supposedly because the Tau do not have the Psyker mutation and their live are so short, it is theorized that Chaos doesn't have time to corrupt them.

(Again I am not able to quote the source at this moment)Their presence within the warp is described that while a normal human is like a candle flickering and a psyker is like a flare, the Tau are like a very bright light being quickly turned on and off behind a thick blanket with a hole in it. This is of course a change to theer original psychic non-presence back story.

1hadhq wrote:No a caste system isn't an antithesis to communism.

You seem to mix the theory / ideal and the practice.

A theoretical form of communism would not allow castes, a practical form does.


Possible castes:

- "working class"
- "soldiers"
- medium / higher ranking party members.
- ZK, secretary of the ( KPDSU,SED,...)

Your confusing socialist tyrannies with communism. I hate that the socialists have gotten a hold of the dictionaries and white washed them. 25 years ago the defnition of communism gave marx's definition of a classless society operating as a workers paradise. Now the definition gives a white washed description that is actually the description for a socialist regime. They have mixed in the leninist ideal of a transitional socialist state without describing the end goal of a world without classes(Which equals a world without a military).


1hadhq- we've discussed this before and you have shown that you know the difference between the communist state and the socialist transitional one. Your above statement disappoints.

Also, no communist government or transitional socialist regime would allow the open existence of castes. It is because they are the antithesis of the end goal.

Anidem wrote:
Personally i thought the Greater Good was a directed nod to The Eightfold Path to enlightenment by Buddha. And that the society as a whole was Zen-Buddhist, given everyone's desire to be good for the sake of being good, there want for peace in the galaxy. To be honest it fits the Cast system they have quite well, for those that don’t know it


There is no "lowest", or demeaned cast, the 4 primaries are all equal, they just have separate roles in Tau society. And if you take a look at something
Fire = Warriors/hunters, this is generally what everyone plays with/against in the game of 40K
Earth = workers/builders, these guys build all of those nifty STR 10 AP 1 guns everyone knows and loves
Water = traders/beurocrats, these guys move the money and do the trading within Tau and with races welcomed into the society
Air = Messengers/pilots, these guys are the Tau's equivalent of a Navy and directly compliment the Fire cast much like the US Navy compliments the USMC (they get them there, they do the fighting, and provide support as needed)
Eternal = The absolute leaders of Tau, the decide major campaigns, negotiations with other races, and guide the race in the pursuit of the Greater Good


Now I'm not sure how many people here have read Miyamoto Musashi, but each of these casts corresponds with one of the "Five Rings" (earth, fire, water, wind, void) which I believe even further pushes the notion that this society would/does likely support the idea of reincarnation

Listen to this one, he has a good grasp of the concept.

@Anidem- Just thrown in a mix of the Indian Caste system, British Imperialism and the American Imperialist doctrine of Manifest Destiny.
Also, you mentioned Musashi, have you read the work of his more successful contemporary, Munenori?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SmackCakes wrote:How can you fight against demons and still be an atheist?

Simple, Tau do not believe in magic. To them it is just a technology that they have yet to figure out.

focusedfire wrote:I believe the current backstory is that it takes time for chaos to corrupt. I can't remember where I read it but supposedly because the Tau do not have the Psyker mutation and their live are so short, it is theorized that Chaos doesn't have time to corrupt them.

(Again I am not able to quote the source at this moment)Their presence within the warp is described that while a normal human is like a candle flickering and a psyker is like a flare, the Tau are like a very bright light being quickly turned on and off behind a thick blanket with a hole in it. This is of course a change to theer original psychic non-presence back story.

Oh. I'd never heard of that fluff before, I guess they backtracked on the original codex representation.

@ph34r- Don't quote me on it. This was from something over a year ago and I am unable to provide a source and current codex still says on pg 6 that, "they had no psychic abilities whatsoever, their minds barely even registering in the Warp at all."

I think that some of what I read may have been speculation on Aun'va's quote from his desription on page 42 where it says, "It burns so briefly, the light of my children, so briefly. But, by the Greater Good, it burns so bright!".


I don't know if these help. Was hoping that others might remind me of where I might of heard the other stuff that seems to be speculation off of these lines.

I seem to remember a heated discussion between some individuals about a Tau commander crying blood for the blood god in some book and what it might mean for the future of the Tau. AAhhh, I'll go nuts trying to force the memory. If I remember more I will let you know.

(Grumble, I'm gettin' old,...grumble)

focusedfire wrote:
Your confusing socialist tyrannies with communism. I hate that the socialists have gotten a hold of the dictionaries and white washed them. 25 years ago the defnition of communism gave marx's definition of a classless society operating as a workers paradise. Now the definition gives a white washed description that is actually the description for a socialist regime. They have mixed in the leninist ideal of a transitional socialist state without describing the end goal of a world without classes(Which equals a world without a military).


1hadhq- we've discussed this before and you have shown that you know the difference between the communist state and the socialist transitional one. Your above statement disappoints.

Also, no communist government or transitional socialist regime would allow the open existence of castes. It is because they are the antithesis of the end goal.

No, not confusing them. I am using real existing examples of real existing persons who deem themselves communists.
Now, their idea of it may be wrong, they may suffer from a rewritten or interpreted source.
As, the goal of a world without classes is never the goal of those in power.
Any attempt at communism leads to organization, organization leads to positions of power. Power corrupts.
Its simply the human factor which ruins "pure" communism. This pure and perfect communism may exist in theory, in books
and maybe even in movies. But when interests and influence is at stake, the ideals get thrown out the window first.
So in this practical "communism" I am talking of, "castes "/ "classes" do exist.
In the ideal, communism your talking of, classes aren't existing anymore. But this type of communism is theory.

IMO, the end goal, is unimportant as it stays out of reach. Its just there for the masses to aim at. The leaders will abandon this fast,
and a communist or socialist regime has no issue with castes if they are equal, but issues as castes are usually a religous thing
and religion is a competitor for the hearts of the people. A sign of transitional socialist regime was atheism, the anti-thesis to
religion would be the motive against castes.

Maybe the argument should be: communism vs religion. Not communism vs castes. So political ideal vs spiritual ideals instead of
political ideal vs organization of a community based on religion.



PS: i think the Aun Va quote hints at the short lifespan and their fast paced lifestyle.

Maybe the Tau are the only race without an afterlife?

SmackCakes wrote:
How can you fight against demons and still be an atheist?

Daemons in 40k aren't like other kinds of daemon. While they are linked to a religion (of sorts) they have a scientific explanantion. The Tau see them as creatures from another dimension rather than supernatural creatures.

SmackCakes wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're not communists but it does appear they're atheists.

How can you fight against demons and still be an atheist?

The Deamons in 40K are really just extradimensional aliens.

My take is that the Tau do not have a religion, other than the greater good, but have souls. They would likely look down upon religious belief in general. My take on the other side of the discussion is the Tau do not fit nicely into any political category, but take aspects from many sources. I feel that the tau are definitely not the “good guys” of the 40K universe. They created a totalitarian empire centered on mind control and eugenics; it’s my opinion that they are even shadier and more repressive than the Imperium.

*They are completely controlled by their etherals; dissent equals death.

*Tau that mate outside their caste are sentenced to death; which is a level of eugenics that touches upon the National Socialists of WW2.

*The entire population is controlled by manipulation and mind control. I am betting that the whole Mont’au that they endured before the etherals emerged was fabricated to make them submissive and open for a significant change.

* The aliens in their empire are basically slaves kept in check by the barrel of a gun.

When I read the tau codex I can’t help but make the comparison between other works of literature like Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, 1984, and Animal Farm. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal then others” – tell me that doesn’t apply to the etherals or the way the tau view other aliens like the kroot.

Grunt13 wrote:My take is that the Tau do not have a religion, other than the greater good, but have souls. They would likely look down upon religious belief in general. My take on the other side of the discussion is the Tau do not fit nicely into any political category, but take aspects from many sources. I feel that the tau are definitely not the “good guys” of the 40K universe. They created a totalitarian empire centered on mind control and eugenics; it’s my opinion that they are even shadier and more repressive than the Imperium.

*They are completely controlled by their etherals; dissent equals death.

*Tau that mate outside their caste are sentenced to death; which is a level of eugenics that touches upon the National Socialists of WW2.

*The entire population is controlled by manipulation and mind control. I am betting that the whole Mont’au that they endured before the etherals emerged was fabricated to make them submissive and open for a significant change.

* The aliens in their empire are basically slaves kept in check by the barrel of a gun.

When I read the tau codex I can’t help but make the comparison between other works of literature like Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, 1984, and Animal Farm. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal then others” – tell me that doesn’t apply to the etherals or the way the tau view other aliens like the kroot.

They are slightly controlled by their Etherals, while the Imperium want to beleive that they have some pheromone gland or something that allows direct control, there has yet to be any evidence of this. They are jsut beleived to be extremly Charismatic, and natural leaders

Tau arent alone in death-sentencing/discriminating people for relations outside of their cast, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India while their current constitution has worked strongly against it, due to people clinging to tradition, it still exists. And them pushing natural selection worked for the betterment of their race, each cast evolves specific traits that allowed each to greatly further the Greater Good.

Their entire population isnt based on mind control. If you where raised from day one that giving freely of yourself for the betterment of society, by your parents and teachers, you would take this beleif as your own. They just sucessfully got everyone to follow the same message, this is possibly the only Utopian Society in ALL of WH40K

Read up on both the Vespids and the non-merc Kroot (the merc ones try to stay away from Tau), and the Imperium Traitors that willingly defected to the Tau empire. They are treated favorably for their contributions, they are given supplies, shelters, and most (if not all) gain Tau assistance on tachnology, while some of them actually gain Tau technology. Even though it explicitly states that "Tau seek out races that have similar traits as them" (IE ranged fighters) and yet go out of their way to save the Kroot from getting completely wrecked by the Tyranids. The Kroot, in turn, willingly give up warriors to fight along side of the Tau on a regular basis, who are actually compensated for their work, even though in the beleif of the Greater Good all must give freely of themselves to further the cause

Well you put that very well Anidem. I agree strongly with the Tau being very close to a perfect society. As much as I think that the reasons that Grunt13 came up with are facts distorted to make Tau look bad and would love to have a long discussion on it I think we should be careful to keep on topic as this discussion has a habit of derailing threads and turning in a cycle that just keeps circling.

Anidem wrote:They are slightly controlled by their Etherals, while the Imperium want to beleive that they have some pheromone gland or something that allows direct control, there has yet to be any evidence of this. They are jsut beleived to be extremly Charismatic, and natural leaders

The background already states the etherals secrete a mind controlling substance that affects both the tau and veships. In the xenology book a tau ethereal is dissected and the control gland is discovered and identified – it is outright stated that this is the method in which the etherals control the other caste and heavily hinted that it works just as well on the vespids.

Anidem wrote:Tau arent alone in death-sentencing/discriminating people for relations outside of their cast, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India while their current constitution has worked strongly against it, due to people clinging to tradition, it still exists. And them pushing natural selection worked for the betterment of their race, each cast evolves specific traits that allowed each to greatly further the Greater Good.

Eugenic programs leave a very bad taste to a lot of people, it is hard to write that off a behavior elicited by the good guys. The Etherals mandate that tau cannot mate outside their castes and that their children and their children’s children are mandated to a certain profession is a bit off for an enlightened society. Image being a born a firewarrior, but being a conscientious objector – you would be executed. Same fate if you married a water caste member.

Anidem wrote:Their entire population isnt based on mind control. If you where raised from day one that giving freely of yourself for the betterment of society, by your parents and teachers, you would take this beleif as your own. They just sucessfully got everyone to follow the same message, this is possibly the only Utopian Society in ALL of WH40K

See above comment. Plus look into command farsight. His ethereal dies and he gains his freedom and doesn’t return back to the Tau. Suddenly in the violent galaxy filled with orks, tyranids, and other enemies, farsight is identified as the biggest threat to the etherals and their greater good. He clearly demonstrates that the Etherals are false in their claims that the Tau cannot survive without the Etherals controlling them, which in itself is a Charles Manson level of brainwashing. Read Thomas More’s Utopia and you realize how right you are to make that comparison, and how a "utopia" is not a good thing.

Anidem wrote:Read up on both the Vespids and the non-merc Kroot (the merc ones try to stay away from Tau), and the Imperium Traitors that willingly defected to the Tau empire. They are treated favorably for their contributions, they are given supplies, shelters, and most (if not all) gain Tau assistance on tachnology, while some of them actually gain Tau technology. Even though it explicitly states that "Tau seek out races that have similar traits as them" (IE ranged fighters) and yet go out of their way to save the Kroot from getting completely wrecked by the Tyranids. The Kroot, in turn, willingly give up warriors to fight along side of the Tau on a regular basis, who are actually compensated for their work, even though in the beleif of the Greater Good all must give freely of themselves to further the cause

Better red than dead.
The tau are not approaching the galaxy like Jehovah witness knocking on doors and politely requesting them to join them. It’s join or die. The kroot are difficult to get a handle on, they are already spread across the stars and live in the jungles. That is why it looks like the tau are permitting them to exercise some freedom, they just are unable to crack down on it. It also says that the kroot are treated with open distrust by the tau when compared to the vespids. It clearly states in their background that the tau don’t accept races declining their “offer” to join the greater good, they just accept that they might not be able to beat up everyone who declines at the moment. The greater good is a manifest destiny that the tau are forcing upon the galaxy, they are no better than the imperium in that regard.

Here is an old thread in which nature of the tau and their morality is discussed in length:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/257487.page

Actually Grunt13 there is a more recent poll (currently in the fluff section) about who are the good guys and Tau are leading. All of the points you bought up have been completely gone over there.