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Chimps, Parrots, Crows, the list of tool-using animals keeps growing. Makes my poor cats look slowed.

Interesting! Who says we are "unique" anyway?

Its 2010, and anyone who has crowbarred their tiny minds out of the stone age is well aware from Science class at High School that we are related to every animal that walks the earth, just some more than others!

TBone knows "look up" means his ball has landed on the top of the sofa, and he can look to retrieve there. unfortunately:
1) he has to relearn EVERY WEEKEND that what look up means, and it really is EVERY WEEKEND.

2) Once he gets up there he has the unfortunate habit of "having a senior moment" as we call it. He stares into space for a while and has to sit down for a bit to figure out what world he's on.

3) About 10% of the time, when jumping down, the Shanker, who will have been in my lap at the time, will run over and body slam him, causing a 30 second Wienie War in the middle of the den, which the Shanker inevitably loses.

mattyrm wrote:Interesting! Who says we are "unique" anyway?

Its 2010, and anyone who has crowbarred their tiny minds out of the stone age is well aware from Science class at High School that we are related to every animal that walks the earth, just some more than others!

Chimps Killing Monkeys..nuff said.

Frazzled wrote:TBone knows "look up" means his ball has landed on the top of the sofa, and he can look to retrieve there. unfortunately:
1) he has to relearn EVERY WEEKEND that what look up means, and it really is EVERY WEEKEND.

2) Once he gets up there he has the unfortunate habit of "having a senior moment" as we call it. He stares into space for a while and has to sit down for a bit to figure out what world he's on.

3) About 10% of the time, when jumping down, the Shanker, who will have been in my lap at the time, will run over and body slam him, causing a 30 second Wienie War in the middle of the den, which the Shanker inevitably loses.

Oh man you need to make a video of this ands post it!!

Dachshund Wrasslin' for the win.

GG

generalgrog wrote:

Frazzled wrote:TBone knows "look up" means his ball has landed on the top of the sofa, and he can look to retrieve there. unfortunately:
1) he has to relearn EVERY WEEKEND that what look up means, and it really is EVERY WEEKEND.

2) Once he gets up there he has the unfortunate habit of "having a senior moment" as we call it. He stares into space for a while and has to sit down for a bit to figure out what world he's on.

3) About 10% of the time, when jumping down, the Shanker, who will have been in my lap at the time, will run over and body slam him, causing a 30 second Wienie War in the middle of the den, which the Shanker inevitably loses.

Oh man you need to make a video of this ands post it!!

Dachshund Wrasslin' for the win.

GG

Weiner dog fights are usually like an episode of Westside Story mixed with WWF style wrestling. Its not like a conventional dog fight.
Rodney always, always loses to TBone. You don't with the Darth Vader of the Weiner World.

Quite a few examples exist. There is a species of bird that uses twigs to winkle grubs and insects out of trees.
Thrushes use stones to smash snail shells.

Have seen film of terns or a type of gull, forget which, dropping stones onto shellfish on the beach.

We all know that we are the third smartest species on the planet after Dolphins and White Mice!

Yea, I guess the fact that you posted this using a computer, that was made in a factory that was built by humans, that was inturn replied on this internet forum, again made by humans, by other humans, doesnt matter. We arnt unique compared to a monkey that uses a twig to get food.

Not a monkey
He/she is a chimpanzee

KingCracker wrote:Yea, I guess the fact that you posted this using a computer, that was made in a factory that was built by humans, that was inturn replied on this internet forum, again made by humans, by other humans, doesnt matter. We arnt unique compared to a monkey that uses a twig to get food.

LOL Nice!!!

GG

Remember, we are all unique. Just like everyone else on Earth.

The OC-D

KingCracker wrote:Yea, I guess the fact that you posted this using a computer, that was made in a factory that was built by humans, that was inturn replied on this internet forum, again made by humans, by other humans, doesnt matter. We arnt unique compared to a monkey that uses a twig to get food.

The point is that the differences are of scale, not of kind.

Otters smack clams with rocks too. Wasn't this commonly known?

Is an eagle dropping a tortoise from a great height to crack open the shell an example of tool-use?

Orkeosaurus wrote:Otters smack clams with rocks too. Wasn't this commonly known?

yes and they look awesomely cool doing it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Weiner dog anthem

KingCracker wrote:Yea, I guess the fact that you posted this using a computer, that was made in a factory that was built by humans, that was inturn replied on this internet forum, again made by humans, by other humans, doesnt matter. We arnt unique compared to a monkey that uses a twig to get food.

It takes many times longer to get from using a stick to catch ants to lighting fire to farming crops than it does from farming crops to making a computer.

Give them time... or GM them. Though I'd use something less aggressive than a Chimp.

Well I think the OP is true to a point. Humans aren't unique in that God has given us certain traits when he created us. Just like he did when he created the animal kingdom. But I think what King Cracker's point was(correct me if I'm wrong King) the level of sophistication difference between a chimp/otter/bird who uses very simple tools such as rocks, twigs, etc.etc. Vs Humanity which has CREATED, a very important distinction here. Humans have CREATED tools going back to fire making tools out of flint, and ways to control the fire , to the wheel, to the primitive farming tools and primitive irrigation tools, and hunting tools.

The animal kingdom can't come close to even noncomplex primitive tools, much less any thing modern like electronic, mechanical, or even chemical.

So we are unique after all.....I think context is important here.

GG

For something to count as a tool, it must have been adapted from it's original shape for the task at hand. For example, a sharpened stick used as a spear as opposed to a stick that you found that was sharp because it broke off at a sharp angle. Or a rock flattened into a hammer rather than a rock that you found that erosion had left nice and flat. That's why otters don't count as tool users- they don't adapt the rocks themselves. They use them as they find them. Chimps and Caledonian Crows, to my knowledge, are proper tool users, as they adapt the objects they find for specific tasks. AFAIK there are some others floating around but I can't recall which they are, specifically. The parrot in the OP is not a tool user, but is still very smart for a bird.

generalgrog wrote:Well I think the OP is true to a point. Humans aren't unique in that God has given us certain traits when he created us. Just like he did when he created the animal kingdom. But I think what King Cracker's point was(correct me if I'm wrong King) the level of sophistication difference between a chimp/otter/bird who uses very simple tools such as rocks, twigs, etc.etc. Vs Humanity which has CREATED, a very important distinction here. Humans have CREATED tools going back to fire making tools out of flint, and ways to control the fire , to the wheel, to the primitive farming tools and primitive irrigation tools, and hunting tools.

The animal kingdom can't come close to even noncomplex primitive tools, much less any thing modern like electronic, mechanical, or even chemical.

So we are unique after all.....I think context is important here.

GG

I'd like to see you make a noncomplex chemical tool.

Actually, I'd like to know what one looks like.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
I'd like to see you make a noncomplex chemical tool.

Actually, I'd like to know what one looks like.

Exactly...


GG

I'm serious. What's a noncomplex chemical tool?

Da Boss wrote:AFAIK there are some others floating around but I can't recall which they are, specifically.

Dolphins will trim and place aquatic sponges on their rostrums for protection. I've also heard of tool use among domestic cats and dogs, though I don't think there are any credible studies to support the anecdotes.

GeneralGrog wrote:Well I think the OP is true to a point. Humans aren't unique in that God has given us certain traits when he created us. Just like he did when he created the animal kingdom.

Or didn't. Y'know, whatever.


Teach the controversy.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:I'm serious. What's a noncomplex chemical tool?

I really don't know either, but perhaps GG was referring to something along the lines of ants using fungus for various reasons?

Still seems like it would be a human thing only. Maybe fire is what he was suggested, but I have definitely never heard of an animal doing much but run from fire.

We as a species have accomplished a great deal of things, using a great deal of tools. When you begin to look at the average person, and what they can create on a daily basis, you are no longer talking about spaceships and nuclear power plants. On the whole we can accomplish things that require a great deal more intelligence, but individually we are usually not creating any tools, ever. I would go so far as to say that we have become less creative in terms of specific tools, unless you want to start talking about specific guy Bob, who is a toolmaker.

You don't make your car, you don't make your oven, you don't make your toilet, and you don't make your house... among practically every other tool that we use, we make next to none of them through an individuals means, and would be without those advanced tools if not for factors beyond tool making, and well into social organizing. Bob makes the tools and we use them.

Wiki actually has a pretty interesting article about tools.

All that I ask is that anyone in this thread make a pair of working shears (scissors), without aid provided by a factory, or anything else that they would not be able to create by themselves. Scissors are simple... right?

generalgrog wrote: Well I think the OP is true to a point. Humans aren't unique in that God has given us certain traits when he created us. Just like he did when he created the animal kingdom.

GG

Allegedly.

We have a very full understanding of the tree of life and the animal kingdom due to a truly overwhelming amount of scientific evidence.

We arent unique because "God" made us similar to other things that "he" created. I have logical empirical evidence on my side and you have a questionably translated book of desert fables. Why not trust the science that cures cancer and makes planes fly and cars move and antibiotics work.

Just thought id point that out. Your free to believe in anything you like. Toothfairy, leprecauns, whatever. I just want to add a counterpoint. Im aware that many of you arent happy with people disagreeing with your religious beliefs though so ill shut up from now on in.

It doesn't matter whether God made everything or it grew up from physical laws.

The point is whether animals can be assessed on the same scale of intelligence as humans, because some of them use a stick to pick up ants or something like that.

If they can, it would be very low down compared to humans, in my opinion.

Da Boss wrote:For something to count as a tool, it must have been adapted from it's original shape for the task at hand. For example, a sharpened stick used as a spear as opposed to a stick that you found that was sharp because it broke off at a sharp angle. Or a rock flattened into a hammer rather than a rock that you found that erosion had left nice and flat. That's why otters don't count as tool users- they don't adapt the rocks themselves. They use them as they find them. Chimps and Caledonian Crows, to my knowledge, are proper tool users, as they adapt the objects they find for specific tasks. AFAIK there are some others floating around but I can't recall which they are, specifically. The parrot in the OP is not a tool user, but is still very smart for a bird.

A tool is simply an object used to perform a task.
A rock used to chip flints into arrow heads by your definition would not count as a tool.

A non complex chemical tool?
An acid used in etching?

me
I'm a non complex chemical tool

Killkrazy has it..

And as far as noncomplex chemical tools, I guess I was referring to things like octopuss squirting ink to confuse predators, skunks stink bomb, poison dart frogs skin..etc. of course those aren't tools in the sense of a blackpowder device or dynamite, or even an acid battery, but it's what I was referring to and the fact that the animal kingdom doesn't use such things. Like blackpowder weapons and explosives are a key difference in the creativity and sophistication(good and bad) of Humans vs animals.


GG

The definition I was using is the one used by behavioural ecologists to distinguish the important step of tool creation from the simple utilisation of objects in the environment. It's got a slightly more specific definition than the general definition.

I agree, that in normal everyday language these things might be tools, but I do think the line between adapted and discovered tools is important when discussing animal intelligence.