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Tryed many times and worked 70% good 30% unbelievably bad..

1845
HQ - Tyrant - paroxism & leech essence - sword & whip - TL Devourer - Acid Blood - Hive Commander - Wings. 285
EL - 2x Zoanthropes - Spod. 160
EL - 2x Zoanthropes - Spod. 160
TR - 20x Termagants - 20x Devourers - Spod. 240
TR - 8x Genoraptor - 8x Toxin Sacs + Broodlord with Toxin Sacs. 185
TR - 8x Genoraptor - 8x Toxin Sacs + Broodlord with Toxin Sacs. 185
HV - Trygon - Adrenal Glands. 210
HV - Trygon - Adrenal Glands. 210
HV - Trygon - Adrenal Glands. 210

In anycase, if well choosed, I found this full-DS/entering-from-reserves list work very very well.

Everytime I had the 2 Zoans units and at least 2 Trygons the second turn I annihilated the adversary before turn 4.
5/6 times on almost 20 games.

Looks solid, very MC heavy, but should cause most people a severe nightmare when the reserve rolls go well for you.

For the cost of those Warriors you could get 20 Gants with Devourers in a spod (that will pump out 60 S4 shots the turn they arrive). Which would up your numbers and give you brutal anti-infantry fire from that unit.

termie lists would hate you, but again i agree that a little more anti cheap horde infantry (orks) would help. A lot.

FlingitNow wrote:Looks solid, very MC heavy, but should cause most people a severe nightmare when the reserve rolls go well for you.

For the cost of those Warriors you could get 20 Gants with Devourers in a spod (that will pump out 60 S4 shots the turn they arrive). Which would up your numbers and give you brutal anti-infantry fire from that unit.

And if in Broodlords range, after at least one wound inflicted, will force a -3 L test right?
Sounds good.

Unfortunately Broodlord power only works in the assault phase

Ah.. well isn't so weighty.

Not that there would be much left to take an Ld check after being pumped full of 60 S4 shots...

you wouldn't mind if I had my wife clone your army list would ya?

Of course not, just tell her to go! go! go!
This isn't a list for ladies normally

Have you experimented at all with Ymgarls or Mawlocs?

Ymgarls are almost totally useless, fun, fluff and potentially really powerful but too much pricy!

23 points are really too much..

About the Mawlocks we'll have to open a totally different topic. Mawlocks, in the right situation can be devastating but they need a dedicated list and play style.

We should force the opponent to castle, to take some directions without leaving him road to go anywhere etc etc.. for those pourposes we can use Mine Spores, Tyrannofexes, Harpies etc etc.. a totally different setup.

Finally, imho, Mawlocks are as good in specifical situations as totally useless for an ALL COMERS list.

This list is same as mine just swap Genestealers for Hormagaunts and upgrade a Trygon to a Prime and switch a unit of Zoanthropes to Hive Guard, operates exactly the same. So I'm gonna say this list is the nuts lol.

Sort of a 'nid newbie myself, but are the toxin sacs on the 'stealers that important?

Grignard wrote:Sort of a 'nid newbie myself, but are the toxin sacs on the 'stealers that important?

Of course yes, exactly as are important on Hormagaunts or Gargoyles just to give you some examples.

Have the 4+ poisoned attacks, with the possibility to repeat all the "to hit" rolls if the ST is higher or equal the the T of the targets means vs ordinary adversary infantry (ie SM) almost the 50% of chance more than normal to gain positives results.

Besides, due to all those rerolls, this will grow up also the rending chances.

We can quitely say that is mandatory.

Toban wrote:

Grignard wrote:Sort of a 'nid newbie myself, but are the toxin sacs on the 'stealers that important?

Of course yes, exactly as are important on Hormagaunts or Gargoyles just to give you some examples.

Have the 4+ poisoned attacks, with the possibility to repeat all the "to hit" rolls if the ST is higher or equal the the T of the targets means vs ordinary adversary infantry (ie SM) almost the 50% of chance more than normal to gain positives results.

Besides, due to all those rerolls, this will grow up also the rending chances.

We can quitely say that is mandatory.

Out of curiosity, what is the point difference between the stealers w/o sacs and with?

Grignard wrote:Sort of a 'nid newbie myself, but are the toxin sacs on the 'stealers that important?

Er, yeah mate. Wound on a 4+ and you get re-rolls = more rends! You can tackle tougher stuff and always wound on a 4+.

Firstly, regarding my previous post all the rerolls are on the "to wound" rolls, not on the "to hit".. pardon me.

With a naked Stealer, supposing vs a Tactical Marine, you'll hit at 3+ and wound at 4+. Rending with a 6+. No rerolls allowed.

With toxin sacs you'll be able to reroll all your "to wounds" roll of 3-. Obviously growing the possibility to simply wounds and inthe same time to rending (alwais with a 6+).

Rending means no armor save and a +1D3 on vehicles penetration.

I let some Math-lover give you the stats but I'll assure you that there's a sensible augmentation of efficiency.
For just 3 points each.

I forgot to mention that you'll alwais wound with a 4+, without considering the T of the target.. even a MC risk to be on troubles vs a large Stealers brood.

Toban wrote:Firstly, regarding my previous post all the rerolls are on the "to wound" rolls, not on the "to hit".. pardon me.

With a naked Stealer, supposing vs a Tactical Marine, you'll hit at 3+ and wound at 4+. Rending with a 6+. No rerolls allowed.

With toxin sacs you'll be able to reroll all your "to wounds" roll of 3-. Obviously growing the possibility to simply wounds and inthe same time to rending (alwais with a 6+).

Rending means no armor save and a +1D3 on vehicles penetration.

I let some Math-lover give you the stats but I'll assure you that there's a sensible augmentation of efficiency.
For just 3 points each.

Alright, I didn't have my codex with me. I thought off the top of my head toxin sacs let you wound on a 4+ but didn't know about the reroll. I can't think of anything off hand to spend the 48 points you'd save on.

As the majority of peoples here and almost on every table will confirm you, nowadays, take Stealer (or others specifical units) with Toxin Sacs is absolutely mandatory. With no exception.

With the word "ultimate" in the title, how could I refuse to take a look?

Looks good.

Alright, I didn't have my codex with me. I thought off the top of my head toxin sacs let you wound on a 4+ but didn't know about the reroll.

Yeah the re-roll to wound isn't a special rule of Toxin from the codex, it is how poision attacks work per the BrB. If your strength is equal to or greater than your opponents and you have a poision attack you always get re-rolls to wound.

What this means for the stealer is against MEQ and anything T4 you get 50% extra killing power for just 3 points extra (about 20% their value). They are manditory on stealers because you only buy stealers to take on MEQ and elites, which will be invariably T4 or greater...

FlingitNow wrote:

Alright, I didn't have my codex with me. I thought off the top of my head toxin sacs let you wound on a 4+ but didn't know about the reroll.

Yeah the re-roll to wound isn't a special rule of Toxin from the codex, it is how poision attacks work per the BrB. If your strength is equal to or greater than your opponents and you have a poision attack you always get re-rolls to wound.

What this means for the stealer is against MEQ and anything T4 you get 50% extra killing power for just 3 points extra (about 20% their value). They are manditory on stealers because you only buy stealers to take on MEQ and elites, which will be invariably T4 or greater...

Alright. I can see the value now if you're getting rerolls which include another chance to rend. I guess I was confusing poison rule with WHFB or something. I'm an Eldar player so I don't take anything with a poisoned rule.

Thanks for clearing that up because that would really help them rend against, say, one of my wraithlords. I was told that toxin sacs were great for hormagaunts but superfluous for 'stealers because they're a hard hitter to start with. Knowing this now, I think I'll take the sacs unless I *really* need those extra points for something. I'm starting a themed 'nid list that looks like it is going to be similar to this one so I need the advice.

Grignard wrote:Thanks for clearing that up because that would really help them rend against, say, one of my wraithlords.

Poison doesn't help them rend against your Wraithlords (or Wraithguard, for that matter). It does let them wound on a 4+ rather than on rends only, though, so death by mass armor save tests is much more possible rather than hoping for a slew of rending hits.

Toban wrote:Ymgarls are almost totally useless, fun, fluff and potentially really powerful but too much pricy!

Expensive, yes, but I'd hardly call them totally useless. *shrug* I was just asking.

Rather than just saying you're tabling them by turn 4 if units X and Y drop, it might be helpful to know what type of armies you've faced and how they've attempted to counter this build.

well mate.
Excuse me for my english, with useless my intention was to tell you that for this price per each, above all at this game level, we must invest really wisely our points.

I faced platoons IG, one of the annihilation examples, Chaos SM, Vanilla in many differents configs, Vulkan with 2 LR and 6 LS (one of the harder), SoB and Iyanden foosloggin' Eldar.

Next friday Orcs, usually a mix of Bikes and camions.

beware the leaf blower for guard. If your oppenent has the Daemonhunters codex he can take an IG list and throw in an inquzator and 2 mystics. This lets him get a free shot at anything within 4d6 inches with any of his units. A punisher cannon russ nailing you the turn you show up will ruin your day.

doubled wrote:beware the leaf blower for guard. If your oppenent has the Daemonhunters codex he can take an IG list and throw in an inquzator and 2 mystics. This lets him get a free shot at anything within 4d6 inches with any of his units. A punisher cannon russ nailing you the turn you show up will ruin your day.

Of course the perfect list doesn't exist.

Of course The Inq., even with a free shot within 4D6", if have anything to shoot at doesn't worry a lot.

Of course a Punisher Cannon can litteraly erase my MCs from the table, maybe 1 per turn. What in case of 3/4 MCs popped in the same time?
The turn after the Punisher will be the next in line for sure don't you think?

A problem, or simply a phylosophycal belief, of the FULL DS/comin'-from-reserves lists is alwais the sacrifice coefficient.

Of course this will ask to see, sometimes it's really painful, suicidal units come in just to take a one-time-action, MCs live one turn just to let the adversary attention ignore other army-components.. etc.. it's an extreme construction based on the target saturation.
A target saturation that will be builded up in the time necessary to throw 3/4 dices.

40k is full of army that can obliterate a Nids list like that, even vs SoB (not the best codex around nowadays) I had enourmous problems, but in the same time this is a list (I mean at "construction balance and mechanic") that can try and win vs almost anyone.

Sometimes a basic Libby (100 poors points) is enough to ruin my day but I have backups all around, even if in little quantities.

beware the leaf blower for guard.

Show me a competitive all comers build that doesn't have to worry about leaf blowers? Not just 'Nids but any army?

The leaf blower is one of the most effective bulds out there for any army.

Nids are by far the least competitive of the 5th Ed codexes and you're complaining this build will struggle against one of the most competitive codex's most competitive build?

Guess what it'll also struggle against ninja DAVU Eldar Grav-Tanks lists...

Sometimes you just have to except you are at a disadvantage, you can't build a list to beat every other competitive build out there. To be honest I think this list is about as solid a Nid list as I've seen.

Toban wrote:Of course not, just tell her to go! go! go!
This isn't a list for ladies normally

List edited.

When your opponent goes second and deploys everything in reserve, how do you deploy? Do you make a more conservative drop?