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Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





 ZergSmasher wrote:
 necron99 wrote:
Just finished a tournament at my FLGS and played a game against genestealers. Good God! Having never played against them and only heard about some of their shenanigans I had a really rough turn 2. He had a bunch of small units shoot me in their "deployment" phase and then in their shooting phase, iirc, and then assaulted me! Lost my OSC to it and a riptide on like turn 2! And then the little buggers ran off into ongoing reserves and did it all over again! Anyone looking at tactics against these guys? The best I could come up with was bubble wrap with fire warriors or kroot maybe and form a huge circle around the big suits.

I would think that Supporting Fire would be your friend here, but I guess if everything is getting charged it would overwhelm even Tau's overwatch. I would think castling up your stuff close together and bubble wrapping with cheap troops (like Kroot) would work, but it would surrender board control to your opponent.


GSC have immense board control anyway, as they can pop up anywhere, so castling up is the way to go I think. Some deep striking unit for late game objective grabbing would be great. Also, GSC hates flamers and anything with Ignores cover really.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





So I was contemplating fitting some marker lights into an allied detachment and I had a question that I figured I'd ask. If I upgraded a fire warrior to a champion with target lock, marker light and then gave him 2 marker drones... could he and the drones shoot at a different target than his unit using the target lock? Or is it only the champ... the champ is only a character, so the IC stuff doesn't apply...
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

war wrote:
So I was contemplating fitting some marker lights into an allied detachment and I had a question that I figured I'd ask. If I upgraded a fire warrior to a champion with target lock, marker light and then gave him 2 marker drones... could he and the drones shoot at a different target than his unit using the target lock? Or is it only the champ... the champ is only a character, so the IC stuff doesn't apply...


Only the champ. Target lock lets a model fire at a different target of its unit. Nowhere it states such rules are shared.

AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure if the drones that only he can purchase could count as part of his kit. Oh well
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

My 6th Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament just ended. Tau did well as you can see:

http://40kambassadors.com/coverage.php

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Surprised to see Tyranids doing so well in both brackets.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

I'm not. Joshua Death was one of the generals. Also, Tyranids have won this tournament twice, actually!

The rules for the tournament are that you must use your codex and supplements...no outside allies. So as an individual codex it has always shined. The weird combinations of different factions which 6th Edition sadly introduced has caused some codex's to seem less than they are. this tournament kind of eliminates that and shows you what the codex's might really do against one another. Only one Ambassador per codex fights for dominance in each bracket AND they must face each other in round one, so it began with a mirror match this year (a first).

Tyranids have some really strong options. The Skyblight is really crazy when you consider the Trygon holes thing. Board control is a thing for Tyranids.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Philadelphia

 McNinja wrote:
 Therion wrote:

Also, apparently the Stormsurge is a very good unit. Very capable of taking out entire units on its own - as long as you use the pulse driver. The blastcannon is too close-range.


The blastcannon is by no means bad but most competitive Tau players take the shorter range PBC or affectionately "The D shotgun." Reason being, by taking the longer ranged driver cannon, you're incentivized to anchor and sling S10 pie plates in the back. Again, not bad at all. But with the shotty, you stay in 22" D range (including movement) and get Stomps in as well, which effectively double your damage output. Additionally, there are some enemies for which D is the only answer, by the shotgun itself or by stomp.

Anyway, don't throw away the cheaper blaster option.

Rule #1 is Look Cool.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon. I don't know the popular competitive choice - haven't seen many Tau lists using Stormsurges at all recently - but both have significant strong points. Obviously, keeping a reusable D weapon around is incredibly useful, but getting within 10" of your target isn't always easy or even possible. I've definitely enjoyed running Stormsurges as ultra-aggressive D shotgun-wielding stomping machines, but I always kind of feel like I'm squandering their ability to spew out ridiculous firepower when I go that route. With that in mind, the pulse driver is awesome for quickly cleaning up units that Tau don't like - grav Cents, Kataphron Destroyers, and bikers come to mind. Always having a blast is a bit of a bummer, but at least you'll often get to shoot it twice per turn!

Personally, I lean towards the pulse driver, in no small part due to its utility with EWO, but as I said, I do enjoy charging around the field stomping and shooting D at things. Typically, the D missiles seem to clean up whatever massive target I need deleted, so the blastcannon loses some of its utility. Now, if I were facing multiple Wraithknights regularly, there's no question I'd be packing D shotguns (and probably more than 1 Stormsurge!). Multiple IKs would likely push me towardsshotgun land, too.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

I prefer the pulse driver for sure. It's so great all around, and the D range is just too small for me. The gun has an effective 22" threat range, and there's just too much stuff out there that would LOVE for you to get that close

Source: I run two storm surges and tried the blast cannon more than once. Just didn't find it to be as effective

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/02 02:15:07


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

MilkmanAl wrote:
I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon. I don't know the popular competitive choice - haven't seen many Tau lists using Stormsurges at all recently - but both have significant strong points. Obviously, keeping a reusable D weapon around is incredibly useful, but getting within 10" of your target isn't always easy or even possible. I've definitely enjoyed running Stormsurges as ultra-aggressive D shotgun-wielding stomping machines, but I always kind of feel like I'm squandering their ability to spew out ridiculous firepower when I go that route. With that in mind, the pulse driver is awesome for quickly cleaning up units that Tau don't like - grav Cents, Kataphron Destroyers, and bikers come to mind. Always having a blast is a bit of a bummer, but at least you'll often get to shoot it twice per turn!

Personally, I lean towards the pulse driver, in no small part due to its utility with EWO, but as I said, I do enjoy charging around the field stomping and shooting D at things. Typically, the D missiles seem to clean up whatever massive target I need deleted, so the blastcannon loses some of its utility. Now, if I were facing multiple Wraithknights regularly, there's no question I'd be packing D shotguns (and probably more than 1 Stormsurge!). Multiple IKs would likely push me towardsshotgun land, too.


Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.

I consider it pretty important if you play in GT's.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.

I consider it pretty important if you play in GT's.


Though I wouldn't disagree that a Stormsurge is one of the only answers Tau have to Magnus, I'm curious about its potential as a liability when considering Magnus's "force one of the enemy units to shoot how you please" power...

Is it just worth the risk? Is Magnus' power of such limited reach that you can almost always get in a good lick or two regardless?
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

the stormsurge is fast and the range of Magnus is generally 24 inches and 12" mandatory moves in the air. If he wants to STAY in the air he will inevitably come into orbit, The question is will you ground him in time? But without a Stormsurge it is quite unlikely that you can face Magnus without a horde army of your own to swamp him when he does alight.

The Stormsurge is EXCELLENT against ground targets in general, particularly infantry moreso than big things, but his D missiles when activated will take down any bog boyu you need them to.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Reliable Krootox






MilkmanAl wrote:
I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon.
I heavily favor the Blastcannon. The popular choice in my area is the Driver, but I never have it pull it's weight. Mostly my decision is based on one thing: I need the Stormsurge to focus down things that will not die to normal weight of fire. The Driver is another heavy hitting gun for the Tau; but I need something that can punch a 2++ in the funbags.

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
This right here. When used in conjunction with Sisters of Silence, the Stormsurge with a Blastcannon and Velocity Tracker deals with so many rough matchups the Tau face, it's hard to pass up for me. The Driver just can't target fliers, and even if it did, it can't contend with a 2++/3++ when they reroll 1s. The D Missiles are great, but getting enough Markerlight hits to use them against a Flier (even if you have a VT on a Driver Surge), is a task in and of itself. The Blastcannon Surge just wants 2 hits for BS5. The Cover from jinking won't usually be better than the Invuln, so you're just fishing for 6s. Combine that with the chance to Stomp if a grounding test is failed, and you can delete a nasty threat that would otherwise be raining havok if ignored. Thankfully Magnus' 'Seize Control' power is a Malediction (unlike the Cabal's) so it can be nullified by a Culexus/SoS bubble.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Plainshow wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon.
I heavily favor the Blastcannon. The popular choice in my area is the Driver, but I never have it pull it's weight. Mostly my decision is based on one thing: I need the Stormsurge to focus down things that will not die to normal weight of fire. The Driver is another heavy hitting gun for the Tau; but I need something that can punch a 2++ in the funbags.

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses one It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
This right here. When used in conjunction with Sisters of Silence, the Stormsurge with a Blastcannon and Velocity Tracker deals with so many rough matchups the Tau face, it's hard to pass up for me. The Driver just can't target fliers, and even if it did, it can't contend with a 2++/3++ when they reroll 1s. The D Missiles are great, but getting enough Markerlight hits to use them against a Flier (even if you have a VT on a Driver Surge), is a task in and of itself. The Blastcannon Surge just wants 2 hits for BS5. The Cover from jinking won't usually be better than the Invuln, so you're just fishing for 6s. Combine that with the chance to Stomp if a grounding test is failed, and you can delete a nasty threat that would otherwise be raining havok if ignored. Thankfully Magnus' 'Seize Control' power is a Malediction (unlike the Cabal's) so it can be nullified by a Culexus/SoS bubble.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Plainshow wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon.
I heavily favor the Blastcannon. The popular choice in my area is the Driver, but I never have it pull it's weight. Mostly my decision is based on one thing: I need the Stormsurge to focus down things that will not die to normal weight of fire. The Driver is another heavy hitting gun for the Tau; but I need something that can punch a 2++ in the funbags.

 Jancoran wrote:
Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
This right here. When used in conjunction with Sisters of Silence, the Stormsurge with a Blastcannon and Velocity Tracker deals with so many rough matchups the Tau face, it's hard to pass up for me. The Driver just can't target fliers, and even if it did, it can't contend with a 2++/3++ when they reroll 1s. The D Missiles are great, but getting enough Markerlight hits to use them against a Flier (even if you have a VT on a Driver Surge), is a task in and of itself. The Blastcannon Surge just wants 2 hits for BS5. The Cover from jinking won't usually be better than the Invuln, so you're just fishing for 6s. Combine that with the chance to Stomp if a grounding test is failed, and you can delete a nasty threat that would otherwise be raining havok if ignored. Thankfully Magnus' 'Seize Control' power is a Malediction (unlike the Cabal's) so it can be nullified by a Culexus/SoS bubble.


The skyfire Markerlights can come from the Drone Net

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/02 18:09:54


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Reliable Krootox






 Jancoran wrote:
The skyfire Markerlights can come from the Drone Net
I must be missing something. How do the Drones from a Drone Net get Skyfire? I usually rely on Tetra's TL-Markerlights or a Commander with a C&C Node to TL some Drones for tagging FMCs.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I sort of figured it was obvious that Stormsurges were our only decent way to deal with Wraithknights, so needless to say, I agree. My issue was whether or not you need more than just the D missiles to deal with them. I haven't in the past, but I've honestly never played a list with more than 1 Wraithknight (ITC rules). 4 D shots at BS 5 with ignores cover is enough to at least get a Wraithknight weakened enough for everything else I'm packing to bring it down.

Magnus is another story. Like Wraithknights, out D weaponry is the only thing that can reliably bring him down. However, he's a lot easier to neutralize by taking out his supporting cast. Seize Control is a huge issue when running a Surge and a strong argument against using the blast cannon, in my opinion. That is, it's way better to eat a s10 blast than a couple D shots. However, if the Culexus/SoS nullify that power, it's kind of a non-issue. I'd have my psychic protection within range of my Stormsurge anyway. I may have to start giving the D shotgun more table time just to see how it goes.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

I use the D-Shotgun because they ARE coming for us.

who tries to outshoot Tau? Honestly its a fools errand to try. So the enemies who can ACTUALLY beat you as Tau will be those that are aggressive. Tau do not like aggression. Not one bit.

The Stormsurge is pretty well literally the only competent close combat combatant you have so right away its more useful than just its D missiles. the D Missiles make it the no brainer that it is. And when facing a massive number of things as Genestealers and Skyblights can bring, well you best have volume and more volume of fire which the Stormsurge brings.

All in all I find it very hard to imagine competing in the ITC without one. Can you DO it? Absolutely. There are many ways to skin the cat but you are definitely swimming upstream when you voluntarily give away your answers to Magnus, WtraithKnights and now Genestealer cults who "do" orks better than orks in some ways.

I rarely if ever plant my Pylons, so I get less volume out of the beast than some do, but i get a level of board presence with it and mobility that is outstaning. All in all, I just find it to be a very dynamic part of a Tau army without being ridiculous to kill. you can plink it to death, but while it stands, its a force.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Reliable Krootox






MilkmanAl wrote:
However, he's a lot easier to neutralize by taking out his supporting cast.
My problem is that his supporting cast in the (Rehati War Sect) are 3 Swooping FMCs each with a 3++ rerolling 1s. Kicking Big Red in the yammies is worth striving for. You are right, if they are dragging any ground-based units in tow, those have to go.
MilkmanAl wrote:
I may have to start giving the D shotgun more table time just to see how it goes.
What I pay attention with my Blastconnon Surge is, how is it performing in a sub optimal matchup? The FMC situation is great for the Blastcannon, but how does it do in a situation where the Driver would be the better choice. My experience has so far shown me that the Blastcannon does an admirable job measuring up, except where the AP2 of the Driver would be needed, and also in long range range situations. I have been able to use Ion Accelerators, Smash, Sisters of Silence and more numerous high AP shooting to work around the AP2 situations pretty well. The range discrepancy was something I was already working around, for the most part. Markerlights reach so far on Turn 1, so my effective range for high outputs of damage was already limited. Later in the game, as the Markerlights can advance, the Driver would be able to take more devistating advantage of it's range, but the Blastcannon can advance more durably across the field than the Markerlights. The most fun moment for me with the Blastcannon, is when I get the best of both worlds: Anchored with plenty to shoot at! Lobbing 4 Str9 Large Blasts, and all the smalls arms fire is often pure mayhem.

Overall, I don't think either choice can be faulted as superior or inferior, but mostly need dependent. You can pick which one you like or fits your playstyle/list needs. Two great options to have, plus the two guns are easy to swap on the model itself.

I think you should give the Blastcannon a good try, in the end, you can't go wrong either way.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




When I've used the blast cannon in the past, it has always been in a list with an Y'Vahra or two, so dealing with 2+ targets hasn't been much of an issue. It's obviously easier to dump a S10 pie plate on TWolves or Centurions or whatever, but as you say, other sources of AP2 should be able to pick up the slack. In those matchups, the Surge gets repurposed a bit. I know it's durable, but I'm not a huge fan of sticking it in combat with things that are only vulnerable to stomps and pack a big punch. That said, I e only ever had a Stormsurge die once, so maybe I need to grow some balls and get his thrusters dirty.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Philadelphia

Question, off-topic: What is better support for a CAD against WarCon; a 3-Keel OSC or a Surge with Drone Net? The former is fewer points so could probably throw in a solo fusion crisis or something of that ilk.

CAD would be a bunch of min breacher squads in fish to take advantage of his lack of obsec and maybe a y'vahra.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/03 13:57:59


Rule #1 is Look Cool.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you don't already have a Stormsurge, I'd go that direction, but the OSC is virtually made to stop a War Convocation. S7 is good enough to easily down the various vehicles and double out the Infiltrators and Ruststalkers. It's also useful but not great against Knights.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Philadelphia

He also brings the kastellan robots so i'm leaning stormsurge but that really puts a lot of pressure on my D missiles to take out the knight early. That gatling cannon is nasty. I'm definitely bringing a canoptek harvest to bearhug his grav units.

Rule #1 is Look Cool.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wraiths will be awesome for that matchup. You'll certainly be glad they're around, if for no other reaosn than to screen things from impending Infiltrators and Ruststalkers (which are very underrated units, in my opinion). The gatling cannon honestly shouldn't be THAT bad for you. Just about everything you have that you don't want taking a lot of high-strength fire has a 2+ save. Still, Knights don't play nice with Tau, so that thing needs to go ASAP, as you say.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Philadelphia

Post LVO, do you all feel like Tau are really true large-event competitors at this point? Because I think they're in the Gladius and Eldar tier of competitors; enough to beat up on most, but just short of true winners. Seems like that is reserved for Deathstars, Warcon and Daemons.

I've tried crafting lists that ignore obsec and just kill things; but they're rendered useless by psychic defensive powers from telepathy and biomancy. I've tried going all out MSU, which fwiw, makes for some really fun, interesting lists but still does MSU worse than Gladius. What to do?

TL;DR: What do we need to do to compete? Is it even possible?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/07 01:20:31


Rule #1 is Look Cool.  
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

If Tau is in the Gladius and Eldar tier of competitors, that's completely fine. Either one of those armies could win a GT. The reason why we don't feel like they consistently do is because more of the top players transitioned away from those two armies, but Eldar is very much still in it, and if battle company can eek out a win/tie/decent loss in the (usually one) kill point mission, they're doing great.

Tau has all the tools to compete and is consistently present in the top 3 or top 10 of big events.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

The General, as always, matters.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Philadelphia

Well, what about Andrew Gonyo? Great general and As I understand it he's still piloting Tau but only GT final made was Renegade which is not ITC and was Taunar vs Taunar.

Rule #1 is Look Cool.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd agree with Tau being roughly on par with BC and Eldar. I'm actually fairly surprised that there wasn't a better representation of Eldar and Tau in the top 8. Oddly, I feel like straight Tau match up favorably against the Magnus and artillery lists that littered the LVO field. War Convocation is definitely a powerful list, but that's another decent match-up for Tau, even though they've gotten a recent boost. The deathstars are a serious problem, though, and if you allow Magnus to get rolling, you're done.

If I were to counter the current competitive meta, I'd probably roll with a dual Stormsurge/Firestream Wing list. That gives you the ability to D-punch Magnus and Wraithknights with ease, torrent down hordes, and stomp your way through deathstars, if needed.

I think it's obvious that game skill matters, but if we're discussing being at the top of a major tournament, isn't it a bit of a given that the players are skilled?
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

A skilled player picks the army that they can win with. The lack of Tau in the winners circle at GT's is a testament to what winners pick to win with. Just saying.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
 
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