Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hi all, i've been running this unit in friendly games for the last three years and i'd like to have an opinion on it
Venerable Terminator unit
insert fluff here>

points] 65 WS] 5 BS] 4 S] 4 T] 4 W] 2 I] 4 A] 2 LD] 9 SV] 2+
Squad: one Sergent and between 4 and 9 terminators
Weapons: the sarge has a storm bolter and power weapon and the terminators have storm bolters and power fists. all have a 5+ invulnerable save
Options: any terminator may exchange their storm bolter for a combi bolter for free, any member may exchange their power fist for a power weapon for free. two members of the squad may exchange their storm bolter for an assault cannon for +20 points, reaper autocannon for +15 points, combi bolter flamer for +5 points, combi bolter meltagun for +8 points, heavy flamer for +10 points, or a cyclone missle launcher for +25 points. any model with a power fist may upgrade it to a chain fist for +10 points. one model may be upgraded to an apohecary for +25 points or a standard bearer for +25 points.
Special rules
Accurate Teleport: Deep strike without scatter
Hard to kill: may force your opponet to re-roll all wounds inflicted on the squad once per turn. in addtion any failed armor or invulnerable saves may be re-rolled once per turn

Thought? questions and comments welcome

so their terminators w/ 2 wounds which makes them harder to kill. the hard to kill rule, err um, makes them rediculously hard to kill... that w/ the apothecary would make them a super beast unit..
they feel too uber to me, also feel unecessary, its a honor to be in terminator armor so i doubt they have a level between vets in termie and honour guard...

Their kinda unbelivebly tough to kill.. Maybe nerf their defense alil? The concept I personally find to be quite intresting.

so very overpowered.... their like nobs on krak.

Too OP imo. Personally I'd make "Hard to kill" as follows:

Each terminator may re-roll ONE failed armor or invulnerable save once per player-turn.

Just for an idea:

Bolters from SM:

2/3 hit
1/4 wound (accounting for reroll
1/36 kill (acccounting for armor reroll) = .005% kill rate

That means I would have to fire 200 bolter rounds to kill ONE of those things or 300 str 4 melee attacks and while yes this is in the first round of shooting / assault, this makes them rediculous, especially in assault where more often than not only one enemy squad is attacking.

hm, good points, however i had a ten strong squad just killed by two fire prisms

Simply fix, put them in a LRC, drive them into assault range with that oh so nice 14 AV, get out, charge, win.

Also 2 fire prisms is a lot of firepower to dedicate & luck may have been on your opponents side. My math was just pure averages on the attacks you will be facing the most.

i've had two squads of guardsmen kill them as well, so as you can see my luck is HORRIBLE

Did you put them in a LRC, drive 12" pop smoke, drive 12" disembark & charge?

If not you're tactics are wrong, if so your luck is terrible.

Venerated terminators are so old, moreover to their name venerable, that they have learnt much. they are far superior shots, and can even proove their mettle in combat, despite their ageing bodies.
These terminators have stood the test of time, proven at every chance that they are, the best of the best.
they are holy guides, each very worthy of a many tomes despite their rank.

these.
they are the stuff of legend.

Venerated terminators
Elites
275 points
infantry
Composition: 1 sergeant, 4 V. terminators
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+5+
Weapons/wargear
terminator armour
storm bolter
power sword [sergeant]
power fist [terminators]

Options:
may include up to 5 more terminators... 65 pt each
Any model may upgrade his CCW to a chainfist for... 5 pt
to a thunder hammer for... 15 pt
up to two members of the saquad may take...
a CML for 30 pt, assault cannon for 30 pt, or a heavy flamer for 5 pt.

Guided scatter: such terminators have made so many drops, that they know how to change their course if they are headed for a bind. only scatters 1D6.
Hard nut to crack such terminators are rare, but can often be almost impervious to small arms fire. all attacks against this squad is considered to be -1 to strength. (to show the fact that the suits have taken so much damage that they're actually resistant to damage, much like the human immune system is supposed to be.)

Feexed for joo.

that was some over powered gak right there. trying for a 2+ armour save, 4+ FNP AND RE-ROLLS?


what were you trying to do? I mean, it sempt more like a squad of commanders and captains then of terminator vets.

EDIT: it seems like you've tried to justify your point with almost impossible tasks.

it is not possible, not nay, never will be possible for guard to injure this unit. to annihilation.

with such stats, they'd be killed before they even got a chink in their armour.

I feel that if you lie to justify a rules existance, it's not worth keeping. (I've made the same mistake. I've learnt frome experience.)
I still can never see a guard squad - two even doing any more then three wounds before they were routed.
no.

tell that to my buddy las cannons and melta guns in both squads... plus i didn't give them feel no pain

@captain solon: i like it, a decent upgrade to make a venerable unit

@tyraelvaldiinhurst: you technically did, giving them the apothecary would give the squad feel no pain

true, but he is an upgrade not mandatory

would you really not take it? better yet would anyone not take it? unless you honestly can't (ie: cheapest hq, cheapest 2 troops and bare minimum squad barely fits in game) i would drop things to make an almost unkillable unit into one that as many others have said takes and average of 200 bolter shots to kill 1.

i wouldn't take it... personally i don't see it as worth it. on a side note i missed a weapon in their options, they should be able to take plasma cannons for +30 points

Way overpowered. Seems more like better-armored, better-equipped, more powerful nobs w/fortune cast on them.

WS5
2W
2+ armor
Different wargear for Wound shenanigans
FNP
Re-rolls to saves

Why are their wargear cheaper than standard marines? IMO they should cost the same. Also, reaper autocannon, being a chaos weapon, doesn't really seem to fit.

Accurate Teleport is too good. Make it scatter 1D6 instead of automatically landing.

Get rid of Hard to Kill. They're already hard enough to kill as it is. Otherwise, if you keep this option, just make them 1W models.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i wouldn't take it... personally i don't see it as worth it. on a side note i missed a weapon in their options, they should be able to take plasma cannons for +30 points

really? its 25pts to give a unit w/ a rerollable 2+ and 5++ to ignore wounds on a 4+ (aside form id, ap1-2 or d)
suffice to say they're insanely broken, there is no way i would allow anyone to use something like that against me even if it was one of gaming buddies

The "hard to kill" and accurate teleport are way too good.
I thought they were too good before I even realized that they were 2 wounds each.
The weapons options seem fine, but they are wayyy too hard to kill.

hm, maybe remove the apothecary then?

They're underpriced also.

Each is stronger than a souped-up Captain, because of being able to re-roll wounds and armor saves (Albeit once a turn, but that's still strong)

Yeah, get rid of the apothecary.

I like Solon's version.

They seem slightly OP. I'd say make it so you can only have 0-1 unit of them and ONLY if you have a Chapter Master in the army to show that they are only used in the most dire situations?

I like this a lot. It doesn't seem right for such awesome guys have generic weapons choices instead of individualizing them like you can in Death Wing.

Good idea! Especially with Solon toning them down little. I've been thinking that I want by BA Honor Guard to be able to take Terminator Armor and I will be using this as a guide for that option. Thanks!

yay! i did my job and got people thinking... oh by the way these are NOT as bad as my first company as they have artifacer armor, kraken rounds in their bolters and two wounds

From the first post, these guys should be well over 100pts each. Theyre better than obliterators as is.

The hard to kill rule is crazy - so the opponent has to roll 4+, reroll, 4+, then 2+, reroll 2+, 4+ fnp from the apoc. And thats on top of the 3+ to hit:

By my math, thats a 1/1728 chance for a bolter shot to kill one. From 1/12 fora regular term, to 1/1728? Thats pretty...well...insane.

Lose the hard to kill rule.

They arent as broken as your first company? Im guessing they have all that gear and you pay 18pts/ model?

Xenith wrote:From the first post, these guys should be well over 100pts each. Theyre better than obliterators as is.

The hard to kill rule is crazy - so the opponent has to roll 4+, reroll, 4+, then 2+, reroll 2+, 4+ fnp from the apoc. And thats on top of the 3+ to hit:

By my math, thats a 1/1728 chance for a bolter shot to kill one. From 1/12 fora regular term, to 1/1728? Thats pretty...well...insane.

Lose the hard to kill rule.

They arent as broken as your first company? Im guessing they have all that gear and you pay 18pts/ model?

35 points per each member of first company, lol

If there was anything I would change about terminators it would be to give them 2 wounds. I mean, nobs get two wounds. I always saw the two as roughly equivalent. Correct me if I'm wrong of course

Very nice, I like the idea of Venerable Termies. But I reckon because they are so specialist there are so few so you would have both tactical and assault termies in one squad, also making them extremely versitile and tough. I disagree with two wounds though, the only reason nobz get 2 wounds is cause they are bloody tough, marines are tough but not as tough as an ork. The idea of having to re-roll for wounds against them is a good one, but it does make them a little over powered, maybe have an increase in points? (already very high). Oh yeah and one other thing with assault and tact termies in one squad, the assault have ws 5, the tact have bs 5 sound ok?

chr15t09h3r

Marines are as tough as an Orc... tougher infact. Read the books (Black Library I believe the company is called) and also look at the fact they're both T4. Nobs are 2 wounds I believe because they just ignore the fact that their limbs are getting shot off.

The idea is also nice, but the men inside the normal Terminator suits are already "Venerable" to even be allowed to use the armor, much less to be sent into battle using these priceless suits of armor. A "Venerable" Terminator squad in this sense should be made up of Librarians, and Captains wearing the armor.

Thats kind of what I meant by tough, as in ignoring limbs that have been shot off...