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The game is set with Justicar Alaric from dakka dakka though this time I'm using my undefeated (touch wood!) Iron Warriors which are also using a new list . I thought this game I'd give Kris some tips too, lets see how it goes!

Iron Warriors "Siegebreakers" - 2,000 points


HQ

1 x Daemon Prince wings, mark of tzeentch & warptime

1 x Daemon Prince wings, mark of tzeentch & warptime

1 x Greater Daemon

Elite

5 x Chosen w/ Rhino 2 x flamers & chaos icon

5 x Chosen w/ Rhino 2 x meltaguns & chaos icon

5 x Chosen w/ Rhino 2 x plasma guns

Troops

10 x Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino 2 x meltaguns & IOCG - champion

10 x Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino 2 x meltaguns & IOCG - champion

10 x Chaos Space Marines w/ Rhino 2 x plasma guns & IOCG - champion

Heavy Support

2 x Obliterators

2 x Obliterators

Chaos Vindicator

Total: 2010



Blood Angels

HQ

Reclusiarch - infernus pistol

Elite

Sanguniary Guard - chapter banner & infernus pistol

2 x Sanguinary Priests - jump packs

Troops

10 x Death Company - jump packs, infernus pistol, 2 x power fists & thunder hammer

10 x Assault Marines -2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist

10 x Assault Marines -2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist

5 x Scouts - sniper rifles & camo cloaks

Fast Attack

5 x Vanguard - thunder hammer

Heavy Support

10 x Devastators - 2 x plasma cannons & 2 x lascannons


Game: annilation & spearhead

Deployment

I lost the roll off and Kris decided to go second. I deployed a ring of Rhinos with the Daemon Princes behind each Rhino and the Obliterators in the shrine ruin; usually I deep strike the Obliterators but no point as they'd kill a few Angels and then get shot up or assaulted next turn.

Kris dropped his Dev squad in a runi his far side of the board and held a Assault Squad the other side of that ruin. Sanguinary Guard were deployed in a crater by the Death Co I suggested to Kris he move these behind the ruin the Scouts were in as he would have to take dangerous terrain tests with those jump packs - if he uses them plus as I can lascannon them with Obliterators first turn, so he did that and popped a Assault Squad there too. Finally the Recluiarch and the Death Co deployed behind a ruin by my Vindicator.




*Tactical Notes

The Death Co is the closes target to me while everything else is a million miles away. I plan to kill the Death Co with plasma and a Vindicator shell seems they're there and I'll use a wing of Rhinos to flank forward and hunt down the Assault Squads with Rhinos - I'll have to use the Obliterators lascannons to take out the Devs at range until Princes or even the G.D get into range.

Turn 1

I roll out 3 Rhinos one with flamer Chosen, melta Chosen and a squad of melta CSM I keep the melta CSM Rhino behind the Chosen and pop smoke on the other two in case those lascannons fire on them. I edge the Vindicator forward but hold position on everything else as if I move I either have to get the plasma CSM out the transport (bad idea) or I'll be out of rapid fire range - so I hold put and plan to use 24" single shot plasma guns.

I fire a Vindicator shot which can see majority of the Death Co through windows and doorways in the ruin, it lands on target and blows them to pieces. I follow up the onslaught with plasma cannon fire and plasma gun fire but the Death Co cover saves due to LOS on the unit; after the dust has settled the Death Co are gone and just the Reclusiarch remains with a single wound.

Angels move around jumping from cover to cover using the buildings well. Only the Reclusiarch makes a offence coming at my Vindicator scoring a weapon destroyed with a infernus pistol shot.

Kill points are Iron Warriors 1: Blood Angels 0.




*Tactical Notes

Well obliteration of the Death Co went well. Shame the Reclusiarch remained, ah well, he's dead next turn.

Turn 2

I back the weaponless Vindicator away from the Reclusiarch towards the Obliterators so it cannot be shot or assaulted giving up a easy kill point. I move out the the trio of Rhinos with another melta CSM Rhino following behind, the 4th Rhino pops smoke while trio of Rhinos position so that the Assault Squad the other side of the ruin can be got at either way next turn - I'm hoping the Rhino barricade will attract the Assault Marines and next turn my three units or CSM can either gun them down or pile into a massive assault.

Shooting plasma and multi meltas from CSM and Obliterators fire at the Reclusiarch but he takes it all!

Angels start moving around with the Assault Squad I planned to bait moving in ready to melta my Rhino. The other Assault Squad and Sanginuary Guard move around, the S-Guard though move out of cover and my Obliterators should get them next turn.

Shooting Reclusiarch pops the plasma CSM Rhino. The Assault Squad baited with the trio of Rhinos fails to pop my Rhino with melta guns

In asault the Reclusiarch charges into my plasma CSM and kills 4 with his power weapon and takes no wounds! The Assault Squad charge my Rhino and fail with the power fist, I tell Kris to use krak grenades and it scores a crew stunned result - not he wanted I guess but those Assault Marines are going to die next turn!

Kill points are Iron Warriors 1: Blood Angels 1




* Tactical Notes

That damn Reclusiarch! I was gambling on him been killed instead of bringing a Daemon Prince out of cover and into assault, wish I had now!

Next turn I'm going to assault the Reclusiarch and gun down those Assault Marines which just gone for my Rhino. I''ll then sweep up the flank towards the Scouts and Devastators and get the plasma Chosen into the ruin the Death Co started behind, this way they can take pot shots at the Dev Squad.

Turn 3

I roll for my Greater Daemon (forgot last time and Kris forgot his Vanguard!) but doesn't appear. I cast warptime on both Princes which pass fine.

I bail out the CSM out the stunned Rhino and flank them round so they can get LOS on the Assault Squad. I move a supporting Chosen melta unit through terrain so they block the Assault Squad in. I move the 3rd Rhino which carries flamer Chosen full 12" towards the Scouts along with support from the 4th melta CSM Rhino which caught up last time, the melta Rhino passes terrain and only moves 6". A single Prince moves into combat by the Reclusiarch. I move a single D.P and the remaining plasma Chosen in their Rhino forward and pop smoke on it. The Vindicator moves to the other side of the shrine blocking total LOS to it and stopping a easy kill point.

I open fire the Chosen, melta CSM on foot and melta CSM in the Rhino at the Assault Squad they're left with 5 models inc the Priest and fail morale and leg it. Only single unit of Obliterators can see the Devs, so both squads fire and kill a Sanguinary Guard.

In assault the Daemon Prince lays the smack down on the Reclusiarch and kills him, the Prince consolidated behind the Chosen Rhino with the other Prince and the plasma CSM move into terrain.

The Vanguard make it from reserve and deep strike, after my advice I suggest to Kris deep strike behind the Vindicator to get a easy kill point - sure they need 6+ to hit but better than deep striking into the onslaught of Rhinos and also near the Daemon Princes.

In the Angels turn the Assault Squad has to fall back as they're within 6" of one of my units and cannot regroup. The Sanguinary Guard move in towards the flamer Chosen and melta CSM Rhinos. The other Assault Squad moves out and lands where the Sanguinary Guard were previously.

Shooting the S-Guard pop the flamer Chosen Rhino. The Devs fire lascannons and plasma cannons at the plasma Chosen Rhino, the lascannons do nothing but it's the plasmas which wreck it.

In assault the S-Guard cannot reach the flamer Chosen over the wrecked Rhino; so they're not sitting ducks. The Vanguard assault the Vindicator but fail to do anything

Kill points are Iron Warriors 2: Blood Angels 3




*Tactical Notes

Well I'm glad that damn Reclusiarch is dead and my Princes are advancing up the field, but damn I lost a Rhino which they could use as a bullet shield. Also I lost another Rhino but I s'pose that doesn't matter as the flamers are now in range of the Scouts.

Turn 4

I roll for reserve and the Greater Daemon arrives, I pop a Champion on the melta CSM Rhino by the Sanguinary Guard and he comes out to play!

The melta Chosen in a Rhino in terrain move out and come within 6" of the falling back Assault Squad, this will make them fall back again next turn. The melta CSM in the Rhino which just spawned the G.D move through terrain cornering the Sanguinary Guard while the flamer Chosen move up along side their busted Rhino ready to unleash the flame. The plasma Chosen which got their Rhino bust move into terrain to take cover and take pot shots at the Dev Squad. Both Daemon Princes cast warptime and fly forward towards the Angels lines. The melta CSM on foot get back into their previously stunned Rhino and start moving out.

Shooting flame and several melta shots fire at the Sanguinary Guard but after some bad luck only one is killed. Obliterators unleash plasma cannons at the Vanguard but they get cover, four die one lives and passes morale.

In assault the G.D tears into the S-Guard, it takes a wound but slaughters all of them.

In the Angels turn the last Assault Squad moves towards the melta CSM Rhino in terrain, they only score crew stunned and immobilised after failing the melta shots along with krak grenades and power fists. The Devs fire on a Daemon Prince and leave it with 2 wounds remaining. The single hammer Vanguard goes after my Vindicator again and pops it.

Points are Iron Warriors 3: Blood Angels 4




*Tactical Notes

The heat is on now! The Sanguinary Guard are dead, thanks to the mighty Greater Daemon. Only the Scouts, Dev Squads and Assault Marines remain and the Assault Squad failing back also but if I keep following them I can make them fall off the table, or maybe I can send a G.D after them and flank round to the Devs.

Turn 5

Chosen with meltas roll up in their Rhino towards the Scouts along with the flamer Chosen. The Greater Daemon moves towards the Assault Squad falling back ready to finish them off. One Daemon Prince moves towards the Assault Marines which attacked my Rhino while the other heads towards the Devs, both cast warptime ok. The CSM in the Rhino stunned and immoblised by the Assault Squad bail out and get ready those bolt pistols.

Shooting the Oblits fire at the Scouts and Devs but I don't think kill any if I remember right. Both Chosen units unleash flamer and melta at the Scouts leaving a few behind. The melta CSM fire bolt pistols and melta at the Assault Squad slimming them down while the plasma Chosen in terrain fire at the Devs killing one while the plasma CSM which I kept held back in terrain fire at the now exposed Vanguard who was drawn out into the open by my Vindicator, they kill him with plasma shots.

In assault the G.D takes a wound but wipes out the Assault Squad along with a Priest while the melta CSM and a single Daemon Prince charge the Assault Squad and Priest and slaughter them.

Turn 5

Angels are running out of guns now, the Scouts fire at something I cannot rememeber what but like all game they do nothing. The Devs declare shooting at the G.D but cannot draw LOS, so instead they fire at the wounded Daemon Prince which I suggested to Kris and also let him get on with it as he did say he was shooting at the G.D. After a rain of lascannon, bolter and plasma cannon shots the Prince is killed.

Points are Iron Warriors 8: Blood Angels 5



Turn 6

I move all units around the base of the Scouts ruin while the G.D moves into terrain with the Devs as the single D.P casts warptime and flies over.

Shooting flamer Chosen, melta CSM and melta Chosen circle the Scouts and open fire but leave one standing - I'm glad I used bolt pistols! The plasma Chosen in the ruin take a few more pot shots at the Devs.

In assault the last surviving Scout is butchered by the Chosen while the G.D and D.P take out the Devs in sweeping advance.

Iron Warriors win with 10 kill points and tabling the Blood Angels!

Summary

Well that went quite smoothly, admittedly a few mistakes on my behalf. When that Reclusiarch moved in and blasted my Vindicator in the first Angels turn I should have moved all Rhinos out and get a Prince into assault - though I would have thought 4 x plasma gun shots and 4 multi melta shots would have done the job! Would have saved me a kill point this and the Princes still wouldn't be shot at as the Devs were the only unit with long range.

Rest went ok. I flanked around baiting a Assault Squad worse case scenario is they pop my Rhino and assault my troops but I would then charge in with another 2 units. In this case though it went best for me as the Rhino stayed in tact and I just bailed out and shot them to pieces making them fall back and eventually Greater Daemon food.

Kris made a few mistakes with his deployment, I picked up on most but two I didn't even think about. His Death Co should have been deployed his side behind the ruin; this way almost nothing could draw LOS to them and this means the Vindicator and plasma guns couldn't have got them. I didn't pick up on this so my fail :( . His Devastator Squad was actually 10 men strong, something I didn't find out until turn 6 when I went to assault them. If I knew that I would have told him to combat squad them down with two lascannons and two plasma cannons in the squads. Other than that Kris played ok and is getting better, he did find out about the awesomeness of the krak grenade as it damaged my tanks. He did however play too defensively hugging terrain a lot especially with one Assault Squad behind the Devs! Should have played more aggressive keeping the Assault Squads together and then pop Rhinos and bail into assault, use the Scouts to lay down fire on the Daemon Princes and hope they get rending roles and the Princes fail our saves and use the Sanguinary Guard to pile into the Chosen; they're only a small unit. Use those Devs to pop Rhinos i.e the Chosen from afar so a assault unit can pile in and the plasma cannons to lay down damage on Princes.

cool report. with the blood angels, you have to make sure you can out-assault the other army and justicar didn't have the numbers to do that. did the death co fail all their cover saves against the vindicator shot? with all that dakka leveled against them, i probably would have gone to ground with them despite making them useless for a turn.

your friend took alot of heavy costed units and paid the price for it (both were destroyed in one turn basically). due to their cost, i don't see a use for death company with jet pack any more. if they were 5pts cheaper, i'd use them grudgingly but not for their current cost as a rage-rule non-scoring troop choice. also, the sanguinary guard are glass cannons against a force like yours with 2 princes and a GD, which kill them just as easily as scouts yet for triple the points! from reading on your blog, it doesn't seem like you're a fan of regular assault squads but i think that's where the strenght of this army lies. take a 10 man jump pack assault squad with a sergeant with a powerfist (for any wraithlords, dreads, or DPs you may encounter) and you have a marine-durable scoring fast moving squad. throw in a sang priest in a rhino (or jump pack) and have him magically appear next to the unit (s) that are charging and you've got a cheap boost.

Your buddys list was pretty... uhm... bad. I think maybe you shoulda helped him flush out his list more! Sang guard fail in 90% of the games I've seen them played in (I myself never run them, for the cost of almost 1 fully kitted assault squad its not worth it), Jump packs on DC was a waste of 150 points, Scouts seemed like filler, and vanguard are just not good. He really shoulda done double librarians, seeing as he knew your iron warriors, it would have given him a great chance against your demons. He was outclassed in every way!

Overall, though, good report.

This looks too much of a one sided fight. I would like to see how you fare against a good BA player.

Zid - I think some of the units you listed as crap are actually quite good, you just need to know how to use them. Scouts are a waste of points for BA so I'll agree with you there.

G

oh, and thanks for posting the battle report here instead of just linking to your blog. i come to dakka to see things on dakka, not links to other sites. your reports are informative and have pics, making them a good read; that quality led me to visit your site. recently, it seems like alot more people are simply starting threads to just post articles on their own blogs and i'm glad you're not one of them.

nice one mercer.

One day you shall face an army that wipes your Iron Warriors out to a man!

Iron within! Iron without!

warboss wrote:cool report. with the blood angels, you have to make sure you can out-assault the other army and justicar didn't have the numbers to do that. did the death co fail all their cover saves against the vindicator shot? with all that dakka leveled against them, i probably would have gone to ground with them despite making them useless for a turn.

your friend took alot of heavy costed units and paid the price for it (both were destroyed in one turn basically). due to their cost, i don't see a use for death company with jet pack any more. if they were 5pts cheaper, i'd use them grudgingly but not for their current cost as a rage-rule non-scoring troop choice. also, the sanguinary guard are glass cannons against a force like yours with 2 princes and a GD, which kill them just as easily as scouts yet for triple the points! from reading on your blog, it doesn't seem like you're a fan of regular assault squads but i think that's where the strenght of this army lies. take a 10 man jump pack assault squad with a sergeant with a powerfist (for any wraithlords, dreads, or DPs you may encounter) and you have a marine-durable scoring fast moving squad. throw in a sang priest in a rhino (or jump pack) and have him magically appear next to the unit (s) that are charging and you've got a cheap boost.

The Death Co didn't get any cover saves as it could see majority of the unit so it just blown them to pieces.

The Death Co Justicar has taken in a Land Raider twice which still makes them expensive either way, I think Death Co are just too expensive.

All the S-Guard did was pop a Rhino and wounded the Greater Daemon. In another game they did nothing. TBH I don't rate them any more.

I like Assault Squads, I think you're getting crossed wires as I don't think I've ever said I don't

Zid wrote:Your buddys list was pretty... uhm... bad. I think maybe you shoulda helped him flush out his list more! Sang guard fail in 90% of the games I've seen them played in (I myself never run them, for the cost of almost 1 fully kitted assault squad its not worth it), Jump packs on DC was a waste of 150 points, Scouts seemed like filler, and vanguard are just not good. He really shoulda done double librarians, seeing as he knew your iron warriors, it would have given him a great chance against your demons. He was outclassed in every way!

Overall, though, good report.

I'm not sure if you read the report all the way through but I did give Justicar help with his deployment and several tips in game too. About his list, I've been making up various ones for him recently while I have the B.A codex I don't play B.A so I don't know how exactly good things are in game. I can only go off paper. Also Justicar loves his Death Co....lol. But Vanguard are awesome for Angels, scatter D6" means they should be in assault.

He didn't know I was taking Iron Warriors not sure why you're saying he knew I was taking them for...

Black Blow Fly wrote:This looks too much of a one sided fight. I would like to see how you fare against a good BA player.

Zid - I think some of the units you listed as crap are actually quite good, you just need to know how to use them. Scouts are a waste of points for BA so I'll agree with you there.

G

Probably fair against a good B.A player fairly well. Guess I'll see in time as Justicar will become a good B.A player

warboss wrote:oh, and thanks for posting the battle report here instead of just linking to your blog. i come to dakka to see things on dakka, not links to other sites. your reports are informative and have pics, making them a good read; that quality led me to visit your site. recently, it seems like alot more people are simply starting threads to just post articles on their own blogs and i'm glad you're not one of them.

Thanks for the kind words mate. Sometimes I'll post a link in as well with the bat rep but I'll always post the exact bat rep which is on my blog

Corennus wrote:nice one mercer.

One day you shall face an army that wipes your Iron Warriors out to a man!

Riiight....lol. The Iron Warriors are unstoppable! lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Heinrich wrote:Iron within! Iron without!

I hear you brother!

The Emperor's Knights will one day meet the Iron Warriors.
And Daemon Princes won't save you mwahahahaha

mercer wrote: Finally the Recluiarch and the Death Co deployed behind a ruin by my Vindicator.

*snip*

I fire a Vindicator shot which can see majority of the Death Co through windows and doorways in the ruin, it lands on target and blows them to pieces. I follow up the onslaught with plasma cannon fire and plasma gun fire but the Death Co cover saves due to LOS on the unit; after the dust has settled the Death Co are gone and just the Reclusiarch remains with a single wound.

*snip*

The Death Co didn't get any cover saves as it could see majority of the unit so it just blown them to pieces.

we've always played it that when you fire *through* cover, the unit gets a cover save; if you have LOS, it just means you can actually take the shot. i guess it ultimately comes down to whether or not you guys play ruins as area terrain; if you don't then you're correct. if you do, then they should have had a cover save. i'm not trying to derail the thread but the spectacular fail of the death co begs the question why it happened. those 35pt models depend on cover saves if there are any ap3 or better templates on the table.

Black Blow Fly wrote:This looks too much of a one sided fight. I would like to see how you fare against a good BA player.

No offence but I have been out of the game for some time and I wouldn't mind being cut a little slack as I don't get much chance to practice. If you look on my profile you might see why I'm not doing too well. I would just appreciate it if you could cut down on what I see as a personal attack.

As my mother always says if you haven't got anything nice to say shut the up!

Nice job.

It seemed to me that what happened was that you sort of stole the initiative from the blood angels player. Rather than playing on his terms, hopping from target to target, you sort of browbeat him into the corner. Blood Angels being forced onto the back foot is a recipe for a lot of dead Blood Angels.

As you mention, if your opponent had instead fallen back a little and consolidated he would have been able to reclaim the initiative with a charge against your units that were starting to suffer from cohesion problems due to moving so fast and around terrain.

Of course, purposely playing on the defensive in the beginning as a blood angels player is pretty gutsy, but in this case, it was probably necessary.

warboss wrote:

mercer wrote: Finally the Recluiarch and the Death Co deployed behind a ruin by my Vindicator.

*snip*

I fire a Vindicator shot which can see majority of the Death Co through windows and doorways in the ruin, it lands on target and blows them to pieces. I follow up the onslaught with plasma cannon fire and plasma gun fire but the Death Co cover saves due to LOS on the unit; after the dust has settled the Death Co are gone and just the Reclusiarch remains with a single wound.

*snip*

The Death Co didn't get any cover saves as it could see majority of the unit so it just blown them to pieces.

we've always played it that when you fire *through* cover, the unit gets a cover save; if you have LOS, it just means you can actually take the shot. i guess it ultimately comes down to whether or not you guys play ruins as area terrain; if you don't then you're correct. if you do, then they should have had a cover save. i'm not trying to derail the thread but the spectacular fail of the death co begs the question why it happened. those 35pt models depend on cover saves if there are any ap3 or better templates on the table.

That's how you play it though Warboss mate. The rule don't say if cover is in between you get a cover save as that would be broken sort of. I could see over half the unit and the rules say if the unit is half covered you get a cover save, unfortunately they wasn't.

The rules for terrain are if a unit is in terrain they get a cover save - they wasn't in terrain as I already mentioned they was just half hidden behind a ruin but not hidden enough once I adjusted my Vindicator The reason why it happened is due to deployment and LOS if they had hidden better they would have got a cover save, but already mentioned they wasn't half covered. I'm afriad you're playing your own houses rules and not how the rule book goes.

Ailaros wrote:Nice job.

It seemed to me that what happened was that you sort of stole the initiative from the blood angels player. Rather than playing on his terms, hopping from target to target, you sort of browbeat him into the corner. Blood Angels being forced onto the back foot is a recipe for a lot of dead Blood Angels.

As you mention, if your opponent had instead fallen back a little and consolidated he would have been able to reclaim the initiative with a charge against your units that were starting to suffer from cohesion problems due to moving so fast and around terrain.

Of course, purposely playing on the defensive in the beginning as a blood angels player is pretty gutsy, but in this case, it was probably necessary.

In every game I have a plan. Sometimes the plan doesn't work sometimes it does. The Death Co died first because they was just there. After that it's target prioritiy against those meltas and it comes a cat and mouse game or head on collison as I move to get the meltas and they move to get me or the Angels move around to avoid me or vice-versa. It's just about who can wreck a Rhino first or gun down the squad, something I won on.

TBH if Justicar would have played more aggressive it may not have changed because he charges my D.P's his squad will probably die and he comes close I gun him down. Best thing he can do is isolate a unit and tackle them one at a time and use his heavy weaponry to tackle my monstrous creatures.

Exactly. I guess I just didn't see what your opponent did to sort of break up your forces.

As for terrain, on page 21 it says "When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obstructed from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover. This is intentionally generous, and it represents the fact that the warrior, unlike the model, will be actively trying to take cover"

Or, to put it differently, all terrain gives cover unless it isn't higher than the base of the models. This is true of area terrain or not, and is true of if the models are actually in the obstructing terrain piece or not. The only time this gets screwed up is with barrage weapons, which no one brought.

mercer wrote:That's how you play it though Warboss mate. The rule don't say if cover is in between you get a cover save as that would be broken sort of. I could see over half the unit and the rules say if the unit is half covered you get a cover save, unfortunately they wasn't.

The rules for terrain are if a unit is in terrain they get a cover save - they wasn't in terrain as I already mentioned they was just half hidden behind a ruin but not hidden enough once I adjusted my Vindicator The reason why it happened is due to deployment and LOS if they had hidden better they would have got a cover save, but already mentioned they wasn't half covered. I'm afriad you're playing your own houses rules and not how the rule book goes.

you need to take a look at the rules on page 22 including the picture; it's not my house rules, it's THE rules. i was just trying to be polite in how i broached the subject. if you're firing through area terrain, they get a save if half are behind it (even if they're not in it). LOS doesn't affect this (see the picture). i just go by what you post and you've clarified the details now so that they are now better described as not being half obscured by terrain. initially, you said

mercer wrote:I fire a Vindicator shot which can see majority of the Death Co through windows and doorways in the ruin, it lands on target and blows them to pieces.

seeing half of them through the windows and the doorways in an area ruin grants them a save. if you maneuvered the tank so that half the squad was in the open without the intervening ruins when you fired (which your post seems to clarify the situation to) then we're in agreement. either way, i won't bring it up again so take it for what you will. the only reason i brought it up was it helped nerf the overpriced death co in one round and was a game changing shot.

Great report, hope to see more.

Ailaros wrote:Exactly. I guess I just didn't see what your opponent did to sort of break up your forces.

As for terrain, on page 21 it says "When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obstructed from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover. This is intentionally generous, and it represents the fact that the warrior, unlike the model, will be actively trying to take cover"

Or, to put it differently, all terrain gives cover unless it isn't higher than the base of the models. This is true of area terrain or not, and is true of if the models are actually in the obstructing terrain piece or not. The only time this gets screwed up is with barrage weapons, which no one brought.

The rule about partial cover say if a less than half of the unit isn't in cover then the entire unit counts as exposed. The Vindicator could see 7 models clearly without anything blocking LOS to them at all, none of those models had any form of cover, the tank could see the entire of those 7 models. They wasn't in the building they was behind it and it has a great whooping opening at the back.

warboss wrote:

mercer wrote:That's how you play it though Warboss mate. The rule don't say if cover is in between you get a cover save as that would be broken sort of. I could see over half the unit and the rules say if the unit is half covered you get a cover save, unfortunately they wasn't.

The rules for terrain are if a unit is in terrain they get a cover save - they wasn't in terrain as I already mentioned they was just half hidden behind a ruin but not hidden enough once I adjusted my Vindicator The reason why it happened is due to deployment and LOS if they had hidden better they would have got a cover save, but already mentioned they wasn't half covered. I'm afriad you're playing your own houses rules and not how the rule book goes.

you need to take a look at the rules on page 22 including the picture; it's not my house rules, it's THE rules. i was just trying to be polite in how i broached the subject. if you're firing through area terrain, they get a save if half are behind it (even if they're not in it). LOS doesn't affect this (see the picture). i just go by what you post and you've clarified the details now so that they are now better described as not being half obscured by terrain. initially, you said

mercer wrote:I fire a Vindicator shot which can see majority of the Death Co through windows and doorways in the ruin, it lands on target and blows them to pieces.

seeing half of them through the windows and the doorways in an area ruin grants them a save. if you maneuvered the tank so that half the squad was in the open without the intervening ruins when you fired (which your post seems to clarify the situation to) then we're in agreement. either way, i won't bring it up again so take it for what you will. the only reason i brought it up was it helped nerf the overpriced death co in one round and was a game changing shot.

That's why I said see majority of the unit for I repositioned the tank so it could see more of them so it was looking through the doorway which shows the open back part of the ruin exposing the unit clearly

As I mentioned to Kris (Justicar) he should have placed the Death Co the other side of the building against the wall which I don't think had any windows in at all but if it did I'd get cover and I'd have to move and still wouldn't see them. Just best describe the building was a U shape the Vindicator came from the bottom right of that U and the Death Co was in the top left so just moved by the doorway and spotted the entire unit

The way I thought you meant is if any terrain is inbetween models they get a cover save, not blocking LOS partially

Gavo wrote:Great report, hope to see more.

Thanks!

mercer wrote:The rule about partial cover say if a less than half of the unit isn't in cover then the entire unit counts as exposed. The Vindicator could see 7 models clearly without anything blocking LOS to them at all, none of those models had any form of cover, the tank could see the entire of those 7 models. They wasn't in the building they was behind it and it has a great whooping opening at the back.

Oh, well in that case your opponent was being a dummy with terrain. Lesson hopefully learned.

It sort of reminds me of when I used to run with infiltrating stormies long ago. More often than not, they would just get killed right away without really doing anything to my opponent's plans. Having individual units way out in front like that is dangerous if you're not really good with how to do it right. In my case, I gave up before I learned, and stormtroopers have yet to make a resurgence in my lists.

Yup wasn't the best deployment. I should have picked up on it though as I gave Justicar advice about other deployment stuff too.

But yeah, I agree. When you've got a unit out there on it's own it's just gonna get shot.

Great batrep! A couple of newbie mistakes on the part of the BA player, but that's how you get better - if I had a dollar for every newbie mistake I've made over the last six months, I'd never have to pay for minis out of my own pocket!

Every one has got to start some where.

mercer wrote:Every one has got to start some where.

And batreps like this can help with going from there to being a damned good player.

I think I'm gonna start posting my own batreps, if nothing else for the critiques of fellow Dakkaites.

Link me up I'll show to check them out

Yea gotta agree with the general concensus here about him going quality over quantity...The way I see it, Sanguinary Guard and Death co (which in my opinion, you should run with jump packs because well...it's cheaper how i do it...and you get lemartes) are like Howling banshees and Striking Scorpions...one is GREAT at taking out those medium toughness elite units like nobz and such (because of their death masks and standards and such) and the other is great at longer combats, where they get stuck in, or against large numbers of squishies, as they can take a fair number of power weapons and deal an absurd amount of damage and death...at least thats how I use them...In my opinion, BA don't HAVE any assault squads that can deal with MCs like DPs and such, only units that can be press ganged into it...ICs on the other hand are a different story (have you SEEN what seth does to mcs??? its hilarious and terrifying...or I'm just really really lucky with him...)
Gotta agree also about the Dev squad, he shoulda combat squaded...tho can you CS into one squad with the heavy weapons and one squad without? cause that would bring all sorts of hurtin...and I've always been unclear on that (maybe i need to read the codex more...)

am I the only one that is worried that no one caught that he has 3 hq choices?

other then that I can say without a doubt that having 400 plus point sunk into DC not including SG is a very bad thing. As I play BA I would suggest just for experience sake try playing a couple of games with you friend around 1500pts, and make him take at least 3 solid, troop choices, what I mean by that is not DC. I see the benefit of DC, but I effectively get the same from a SP, with what ever squad. Just my .02

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:am I the only one that is worried that no one caught that he has 3 hq choices?

you're the only one that's gotten it wrong, lol. i believe the greater demon doesn't count as a force org choice (neither do lesser demons).

hm, pics not working :(

dbsamurai wrote:Yea gotta agree with the general concensus here about him going quality over quantity...The way I see it, Sanguinary Guard and Death co (which in my opinion, you should run with jump packs because well...it's cheaper how i do it...and you get lemartes) are like Howling banshees and Striking Scorpions...one is GREAT at taking out those medium toughness elite units like nobz and such (because of their death masks and standards and such) and the other is great at longer combats, where they get stuck in, or against large numbers of squishies, as they can take a fair number of power weapons and deal an absurd amount of damage and death...at least thats how I use them...In my opinion, BA don't HAVE any assault squads that can deal with MCs like DPs and such, only units that can be press ganged into it...ICs on the other hand are a different story (have you SEEN what seth does to mcs??? its hilarious and terrifying...or I'm just really really lucky with him...)
Gotta agree also about the Dev squad, he shoulda combat squaded...tho can you CS into one squad with the heavy weapons and one squad without? cause that would bring all sorts of hurtin...and I've always been unclear on that (maybe i need to read the codex more...)

Yeah S-Guard and Death Co are a point sink. S-Guard are like a glass hammer and need to be used right. TBH in the two games they've been used against me they did nothing. In a recent game I posted about 30 mins ago the Angels did better without either of these units.

I don't know what Seth does - I think he has rending?

You can split 10 man squads into 2 5 man squads and you can put weapons any where you like.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:am I the only one that is worried that no one caught that he has 3 hq choices?

other then that I can say without a doubt that having 400 plus point sunk into DC not including SG is a very bad thing. As I play BA I would suggest just for experience sake try playing a couple of games with you friend around 1500pts, and make him take at least 3 solid, troop choices, what I mean by that is not DC. I see the benefit of DC, but I effectively get the same from a SP, with what ever squad. Just my .02

I'm worried that you didn't find out a Greater Daemon doesn't take a HQ choice

We playe 2k points so we're not going to play 1.5k.

warboss wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:am I the only one that is worried that no one caught that he has 3 hq choices?

you're the only one that's gotten it wrong, lol. i believe the greater demon doesn't count as a force org choice (neither do lesser demons).

You are indeed correct.

Thorheim wrote:hm, pics not working :(

My photobucket bandwidth is over. Will be working on the 28th.

have you thought of hosting the pics here at dakka? i doubt they'd limit the bandwith when its being used on their own forums.

I've got another photobucket account Something I'll keep in mind though.