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So I recently picked up a dreadnought off craigslist and the original owner converted a missile launcher arm into an assault cannon, so I now have a left handed assault cannon and a right handed assault cannon. Given the popularity of the "rifleman" dread (2x twin-linked autocannons) I've been wondering whether it would be worth it do do 2x assault cannons?

Versus infantry I think the dual assault cannons would inflict more wounds against most infantry. Versus MEQ the TLAC has a .25 chance of unsaved wounds per shot vs. .28 for the autocannon, a disparity that grows when you consider the Assault cannon has twice the shots. Versus light armor I believe the extra shots outweigh the higher strength and twin-link of the AC as well (haven't mathhammered it yet).

What do you you all think? Would it be a worthwhile upgrade option?

Now, before anyone cries foul, I know this is not a valid wargear selection according to C:SM, but I only play with friends and they said just pay the 10 points for assault cannon twice (just like if I were buying a dual AC dread).

Sure, only if you play Dark Angels .

Interesting... is that a valid wargear selection for DA?

Two things will happen if you do this.

1) You will kick endless amounts of squishy infantry ass. Eight shots at S6 AP4 rending would be joy.

2) You will be largely ineffective against all but the lightest vehicles, as the Assault Cannon is a S6 weapon. Tanks will be entirely beyond your ability.

What would I do? I'd nix the second assault cannon in favor of that good ol' missile launcher. Fewer shots, but you get the frag missile template against infantry and the krak missiles against the heavier stuff - and while the cannon is AP 4, the launcher is AP 3, giving you a greater edge against MEqs.

Either build cripples you in close combat, but I personally have an Assault Cannon/Missile Launcher dread and he pays for himself every time I field him.

I think you a bit uninformed SaintHazard.

1 Assault Cannon is better than 1 Lascannon vs. Tanks. Rending is the important factor.

As for the Dark Angel comment, it's because their Dreads are called Mortis Dreads and they usually have matched weapons...but their codex is sort of crap... so was a joke were you could possibly legally get that combo (though not 100% sure) but have it balanced out with all the other strings attached to the DA codex.

Well, its a legit combo to do assault cannon + autocannon (something i've considered, but haven't tested) to get as many shots as possible... the combination of the two weapons would mean your effective out to 48", can pump out more anti-infantry shots at closer ranges, and are deadlier to av10-11 and av 13-14. av12 is the spot where autocannons are significantly better, so the AC+TLAC dread would be best used against marine armies and ork armies, while the rifleman is better against tau, eldar, and guard armies.

If you fire four shots, each of which has roughly an 18% chance to rend, and each rend has a 33% chance to hit at S9...

How is that better than a lascannon, with one shot that hits at S9 100% of the time?

Either you've never actually tried to pop a tank with a rending weapon or your grasp of statistics is a little off.

Oh, good idea Honersstodnt! Now I just need to finish my TLAC arm conversions and I can try this guy out.

Saint, its a single shot that may miss.
Against alot of armour you can glance it.

so what, you hit AV14 with a S9 shot? need a 6 to pen.
Hit it with a S6 rending x4 and pen on a 3.

Its all possible, and alot of games at tournaments have shown this.
Marine players tend to be taking them moreso that las now, and its getting even more popular.

I think its also because of the multi-role use of it.

The problem with the assault cannons on the dread is he has to get fairly close to use them at 24" putting him in assault range with out a CCW he still has 2 str 6 attacks but they're not power weapons.

Mixing the auto cannon and assault cannon means you have one weapon that wants to hang back at 48" and one that wants to get to mid field as soon as possible.

The 2X auto dread can start lighting up units on the other side of the board turn one and keep it up all game plus he can move 6 and fire everything to help him get side shots. Its twin linked too so against infantry your hitting almost the same amount as the non twinlinked assault cannons but with one extra str. The extra range shields him from a lot of return fire and assault which is good cause your only AV12.

I'm really biased though cause i use 3 Auto-cannon dreads in my main list and am always pleased with their results. I have never tried 2 assault cannon dread and I cant really think of a way to make it work in addition to not actually being a valid choice in my codex.

Here's the problem.

With a lascannon, you have a 66% chance to hit with one shot (at BS4). If you hit, you then have an 17% chance to penetrate AV14.

With an assault cannon, you have a 66% chance to hit with each of the four shots, so admittedly you have four times the chance to hit. But here's where it gets hairy.

Once you hit, you have an 17% chance to even have a CHANCE to rend. Once you rend, you have a 33% chance to roll a 3, which gives you the S9 hit you need.

Then you need to roll ANOTHER SIX to actually penetrate.

So, it breaks down like so:

Lascannon requires you to roll a three+ (66%), then a six (17%), and it penetrates.

Assault cannon requires you to roll a three+ (66%), then a five+ (33%), then a six (17%), and it penetrates.

Even at four shots your chances are slightly better with the lascannon.

Assault Cannons are amazing, in all honesty. They shred anything without any difficulty, and a venerable with them makes them god-like, since they almost all will hit, and if they hit, they will probably hurt anything. Only T9 and higher can evade being hurt by it, and monoliths.
Lascannons are better against monoliths.

odds to penetrate av14 with a lascannon:
1 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 2/18 = 11% chance to pen

odds to penetrate av14 with an assault cannon:
4 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 14% chance to pen.

against av13,12, and 11, the lascannon is better. against av10, the assault cannon again is better.

against infantry, there is no question, the assault cannon is better.

I'll check my PDF of forgeworld codexs . Thank you internet. You have saved me 300$.

Honersstodnt wrote:odds to penetrate av14 with a lascannon:
1 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 2/18 = 11% chance to pen

odds to penetrate av14 with an assault cannon:
4 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 14% chance to pen.

against av13,12, and 11, the lascannon is better. against av10, the assault cannon again is better.

against infantry, there is no question, the assault cannon is better.

Hm, I wonder what I missed.

I guess I've been firmly put in my place.

Thank you, Honersstodnt, for the correction, after doing the equations again I come to the same conclusion as you. The Assault Cannon is indeed better against AV14.

I'll shut up now.

Sorry. But its a no go. No Dreadnought can have 2 assualt cannons. :*( sorry dude. Check IA2 Update 28Aug.

Asherian Command wrote:Sorry. But its a no go. No Dreadnought can have 2 assualt cannons. :*( sorry dude. Check IA2 Update 28Aug.

Oh I know. (I too checked IA just to be sure). But I only play with friends so I was considering running this in a friendly game. (We are fairly liberal about modding the rules, like letting tac squads buy special weapons), etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least I can add some visual interest by running a dread with the CCW and gun arm reversed from normal.

Honersstodnt wrote:odds to penetrate av14 with a lascannon:
1 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 2/18 = 11% chance to pen

odds to penetrate av14 with an assault cannon:
4 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 14% chance to pen.

against av13,12, and 11, the lascannon is better. against av10, the assault cannon again is better.

against infantry, there is no question, the assault cannon is better.

Actually, the assault cannon is also better against AV 13 and 11 as well. The lascannon only wins against AV 12. Also, the lascannon wins against all targets between 24.0001-48" away .

I still favor assault cannons for the most part, but the delivery system does need to be considered.

edit: For the sake of completeness, using your calculation method (which has its merits and drawbacks)

odds to penetrate av13 with a lascannon:
1 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 = 22% chance to pen

odds to penetrate av13 with an assault cannon:
4 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2/3 = 16/54 30% chance to pen.

Kolath wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Sorry. But its a no go. No Dreadnought can have 2 assualt cannons. :*( sorry dude. Check IA2 Update 28Aug.

Oh I know. (I too checked IA just to be sure). But I only play with friends so I was considering running this in a friendly game. (We are fairly liberal about modding the rules, like letting tac squads buy special weapons), etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least I can add some visual interest by running a dread with the CCW and gun arm reversed from normal.

The rare and elusive left-handed Dreadnought. Do it!

I think FW even has the proper parts. Go spend $10 and get a right-handed smushfist with the nasty stabby bits from them.

Or the assault drill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:odds to penetrate av14 with a lascannon:
1 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 2/18 = 11% chance to pen

odds to penetrate av14 with an assault cannon:
4 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 14% chance to pen.

against av13,12, and 11, the lascannon is better. against av10, the assault cannon again is better.

against infantry, there is no question, the assault cannon is better.

Actually, the assault cannon is also better against AV 13 and 11 as well. The lascannon only wins against AV 12. Also, the lascannon wins against all targets between 24.0001-48" away .

I still favor assault cannons for the most part, but the delivery system does need to be considered.

Well, to be fair, they're simply spitting lead, rather than 1.00 caliber rocklets (or in the lascannon's case, light). Makes sense they have a shorter range than Heavy Bolters, LCs, Missile Launchers, etc.

Granted, it's a LOT of lead, but that doesn't help with range any.

Yeah go for it if your friends allow you to use it!

SaintHazard wrote:
The rare and elusive left-handed Dreadnought. Do it!

I think FW even has the proper parts. Go spend $10 and get a right-handed smushfist with the nasty stabby bits from them.

Or the assault drill.

Luckily, the guy I bought it from had some extra arms so I also got the right-handed DCCW from the Ironclad, the left-handed seismic hammer, and the chainfist. I have arms galore!

Kolath wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:
The rare and elusive left-handed Dreadnought. Do it!

I think FW even has the proper parts. Go spend $10 and get a right-handed smushfist with the nasty stabby bits from them.

Or the assault drill.

Luckily, the guy I bought it from had some extra arms so I also got the right-handed DCCW from the Ironclad, the left-handed seismic hammer, and the chainfist. I have arms galore!

You know what that means.

If you don't give your Dreadnought four arms, we are no longer speaking.

A drop pod isn't a crazy idea.
In addition...the board really isn't that big IMO. 24" is plenty, remember the effective range is 30", that's possibly into the opponent's deployment zone.

Bucket 'o Dice...is the tie-breaker for me.

SaintHazard wrote:

Kolath wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:
The rare and elusive left-handed Dreadnought. Do it!

I think FW even has the proper parts. Go spend $10 and get a right-handed smushfist with the nasty stabby bits from them.

Or the assault drill.

Luckily, the guy I bought it from had some extra arms so I also got the right-handed DCCW from the Ironclad, the left-handed seismic hammer, and the chainfist. I have arms galore!

You know what that means.

If you don't give your Dreadnought four arms, we are no longer speaking.

It must be done

I want more variable weaponry in the next marine codex :(

I want razorbacks with thunderfire cannons mounted on them for +50 points or so... I want dreadnoughts dual wielding assault cannon... I want my 5 man terminator squads with 2 special weapons back... I want terminators with multilasers!

SaintHazard wrote:

Kolath wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:
The rare and elusive left-handed Dreadnought. Do it!

I think FW even has the proper parts. Go spend $10 and get a right-handed smushfist with the nasty stabby bits from them.

Or the assault drill.

Luckily, the guy I bought it from had some extra arms so I also got the right-handed DCCW from the Ironclad, the left-handed seismic hammer, and the chainfist. I have arms galore!

You know what that means.

If you don't give your Dreadnought four arms, we are no longer speaking.

I'm actually collecting old abused dread's to combine into something similar to that idea, once I have all the parts I need I'll set up a blog for it, not sure which of my armies it'll be for yet though, UM, CF, RG, SW, DA, BA, IF, I just don't know...

Honersstodnt wrote: I want terminators with multilasers!

*spews everywhere* WHY! WHYYYYYYYY!

WHAT! AT ALL! DOES A MULTIGAYSER HAVE OVER AN ASSAULT CANNON! ARRAWRARAGHAGHAAAAHG.

Your crazy people get murdered for saying those things

Jaon wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote: I want terminators with multilasers!

*spews everywhere* WHY! WHYYYYYYYY!

WHAT! AT ALL! DOES A MULTIGAYSER HAVE OVER AN ASSAULT CANNON! ARRAWRARAGHAGHAAAAHG.

Your crazy people get murdered for saying those things

36" range...

SaintHazard wrote:

Jaon wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote: I want terminators with multilasers!

*spews everywhere* WHY! WHYYYYYYYY!

WHAT! AT ALL! DOES A MULTIGAYSER HAVE OVER AN ASSAULT CANNON! ARRAWRARAGHAGHAAAAHG.

Your crazy people get murdered for saying those things

36" range...

C.S GOTO WILL FACE THE WRAITH OF THE CODEX!
Well anyway dual assualt cannons= Awesome. Good against light vechiles.