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Just a tactical question - is it a poor decision to charge a squad of 9 Zerkers w/ a fist Champ against a squad of 5 Black Templar Terminators w/ powerfists?

It came up recently in an objective game. I ended up charging them in and got slaughtered to a man. Now my dice were somewhat poor with my 8 regular zerks killing 1 termy and my champion killing another, but regardless I was wiped out to the man.

Is it actually bad dice or was charging them a poor tactical decision?

Well some math for you...

-On average, you would have gotten 32 attacks, 21.5 hits, 14.3 wounds, 2.39 kills.

Your champ and templars hit at the same time.

-3 Templars, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 Zerkers dead.

-1 Zerker champ, 4 attacks, 2.68 hit, 2.25 wounds, 1.5 kills.

If you include shooting the pistols on the charge, you would likely have killed 4.5 terminators, while losing 2-3 Zerkers yourself.

I would charge the Zerkers into the Termies.
No, it's not a poor decision.
Yes, dice are like that.

Don't forget to shoot if you are close enough to not fail a charge .

Which is why 'zerkers need chainaxe rules! I stopped running them altogether because they rarely did their job and their transport(s) were the first to get shot down.

Berserkers are one of the best things in the Chaos codex for killing Terminators. Your experience was hideous luck, that's all.

I think you did the right thing. I would of done the same thing.

Werid things can happen when rolling dice. I have killed 5 termies with 14 gretchins before.

If they had the "preferred enemy" vow, and you had bad dice, they could have easily crippled or wiped your unit out. It's a tough decision, but it's certainly better than letting them charge you.

Against SB/PF terminators, sure, I'd charge them. But since BT gets Preferred Enemy most of the time (which can lead to some serious damage), I would definitely shoot, and do everything in my power to soften up the squad before charging.

I probably wouldn't do it against Assault Terminators though.

Ok next time take this option,

Chaos Lord, Termie armor, demon weapon (Bloodfeeder).

Let him lead your Bezerkers 8-10 man unit.

Instant Space Marine Termie coleslaw.

Yeah,it was just bad dice roles.

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charging terminators with berserkers is a trick. I would say as a general rule if the terminators have more or less the same wargear go for it, but if they have different kinds of wargear don't. if they have to roll their saves as a group you're much more likely to get them before their power fists swing than if they get to roll 1 at a time. obviously if they start hitting your berserkers with power fists lightning claws etc you won't last long.

init 5 is really your only chance. which, incidentally, is why its better to have a power weapon than a power fist on your skull champion. every terminator you kill at init 5 is 1 or 2 berserkers who don't get clobbered by a power fist at init 1.

AF

The Bloodfeeder is a bit unreliable. That Demon Prince is going to look pretty silly when he pokes himself in the eye with it and then eats a Power Fist.

demon princes cant take demon weapons. that was the last codex.

If you have berzerkers and you're playing against BT, you really have no choice but to charge whether the target is terminators, sword brethren, neophytes, whatever.

The reasoning is pretty simple; getting charged is going to be far, far worse.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:demon princes cant take demon weapons. that was the last codex.

Chaos Lord then. I'm too much is an IG for my own good.

Chaos if played right in close combat are unbeatable from 1st-5th edition its a proven fact, select the right unit for the proper mission will resolve any matter. Powerfists do not scare me as a Power Sword will hit first in my opinion and I should know this I have been fighting Space Wolfs since 1st edition and it works for me, Black Templars are no better better.

Better to charge the BT terminators than get charged. Atleast they are not TH/SS terminators. Kharn in my experience does well vs Terminators mixed in w/ beserkers. If you charge it right, only 1 terminator is going to hit Kharn while the rest go against the berserkers. His high Init and hitting on 2s allow for you to kill 3-4 terminators before the rest of the squad hits.

I had a chaos player charge 10 beserkers and a khorne lord at my 10 terminators and tigurious. the dice gods favoured me and i only lost 2 terminators (khorne lord failed his daemonweapon LOOOOOOL) and I then instant deathed the khorne lord with tigurious's force weapon and pulverised the bezerkers. good times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
May I add this wasnt exactly a srs game. 10 man termie squads with tigurious is a lot of points...

that sounds about right. w/o doing the math I would guess the berserker player neds to outnumber the terminators 2 or 3 to 1 to be sure of crippling them at init 5 and not being destroyed in return at init 4 or less
AF

Might as well. Do you want to Furiously Charge, or do you want to get Furiously F'ed when they charge you?

I mean, it's a tactical decision you have to make in context but in a vacuum, I'd say go for it. You're striking at I5, they're striking at I1, and you're probably going to get to fire bolt pistols on the way in.

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just to be clear 10 berserkers vs 5 terminators you might be ok but 10 berserkers vs 10 terminators no absolutely not you will lose. if there's no way to get out of it then charge you'll at least kill some of them but really you should work to prevent that kind of thing from happening.
AF

Monster Rain wrote:Berserkers are one of the best things in the Chaos codex for killing Terminators. Your experience was hideous luck, that's all.

I think their luck is rigged! My Beserkers consistantly lose 5+ guys when their rhino/landraider gets blown up on the first/second turn. Jinxed!

Bad luck is Tzeentch's way of telling you to play Thousand Suns.

Nurglitch wrote:Bad luck is Tzeentch's way of telling you to play Thousand Suns.

Sure, because then when you get pasted you can't chalk it up to crappy luck.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Bad luck is Tzeentch's way of telling you to play Thousand Suns.

Sure, because then when you get pasted you can't chalk it up to crappy luck.

Oh snap!

Tzeentch works in mysterious ways...

Let this be a lesson to you, next time before playing, snackrafice a chicken.....I may just be hungry though

Night Lords wrote:Well some math for you...

-On average, you would have gotten 32 attacks, 21.5 hits, 14.3 wounds, 2.39 kills.

Your champ and templars hit at the same time.

-3 Templars, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 Zerkers dead.

-1 Zerker champ, 4 attacks, 2.68 hit, 2.25 wounds, 1.5 kills.

If you include shooting the pistols on the charge, you would likely have killed 4.5 terminators, while losing 2-3 Zerkers yourself.

Except these are black templars, almost certainly with preferred enemy. So 3 templars, 6 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 zerkers dead. It's still much more likely for the zerkers to come out on top in the end, but I thought I'd point that out.

BT lightning claw termies are the ones that intimidate me, especially with furious charge coming out of a land raider. 4 strength 5 attacks each at init 5 rerolling hits and wounds is pretty much murder on everything.

Thank you for the input. I kind of figued it was the right move due to Furious Charge but I felt discouraged enough that I wanted some feedback. It really feels like an all or nothing bet when you make that move (which actually came up a second time in the next game). I figured it was going to be a bad day regardless when my Plasma Plagues rapid fired first turn and turned up 4 "Gets Hot!"-worthy 1's.

The SB/PF termy squad is sorta irritating, but I'll agree that the LC squad coming out of a LR is freakin' terrifying. Luckily I learned just how good Obliterators are at dealing with said squad today

I really wish I could squeeze in Kharne along with my DP's, but Oh Well, can't have everything I guess.

one thing about that fight the berserkers had better wipe out the terminators at init 5 bc every terminator whose left can be reasonably certain of getting at least 1 berserker with his power fist, probably 2 with lightning claws. They need to win on the charge.
AF