Land Raiders

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**Pwn'd You**

Just bought the redeemer/crusader so.......which should i build and which is better for what type of ultramarines army

**Ailaros**

I've never played against a crusader, but I have played against a redeemer a couple of times.

The redeemer has never gotten both flamer shots (obviously), and, honestly, I have found that the price of getting the flamer in range often comes at the cost of getting in melta range of your opponent's (in this case, my) meltaguns. Even if your opponent doesn't destroy the vehicle itself, your opponent just needs to score a couple weapon destroyed results or a single immobilized to make the vehicle useless.

I don't know if the crusader is better, but my experiences against a redeemer have made it so that I don't think I'd ever field one myself.

**Brettila**

I bought a redeemer just because, but to be honest, the Crud is the best variant. You get the most shots, and from further away. Yes the flamers kill up close, but up close isn't always easy. You are most likely moving 12" the turn you disembark anyway. The transport capacity never hurt either. Oh to have them in my CSM army.... <shudder of ecstasy>

**Kilkrazy**

I am moving this thread to Tactics discussion.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Crusader +1 here.

For the simple reason that it doesn't have to drive up to the enemy to kill it.

On the other hand, if you plan to use your LR as a termie transport then drop them in the middle of the enemy to sow panic, then redeemer.

**pdawg517**

I play a Vulkan list so I like the redeemer. If you are taking 5 or 6 assault terminators then I say go for the Redeemer. I say that because the redeemer was made for getting up close and personal. If you are dropping off assault termies then you are getting up close and personal. The crusader is nice if you are running 7 or 8 termies. In all honesty you need to look at your list and decide. In either case don't worry about getting in melta range if you are delivering terminators. LR's make their points back by what they deliver, not necessarily what they kill.

I magnetized my sponsons so I could run both!

A great tactic against horde players with the redeemer is to tank shock a horde, disembark the termies, flamestorm the horde and go after big stuff. If done right, this works very well against nids. They like to keep their MC's behind the gaunts. So instead of having to kill all the gaunts you just tank shock through them!

**Beerfart**

Standard LR's are more survivable than any other.

**darkangels_rule**

Crusader = WIN

A landraider is a large armoured box that delivers death

A crusader has more space inside = more death to transport

A crusader has longer range weapons (24 " V flamer template) = more guns on targets on the way in and target softened up before your transported death hop out and get to the job in hand !!!

**Grey Templar**

if you are using it as a terminator delivery system then either is fine.

if this is what it is for...

it doesn't matter if the Redeemer gets melted 6" away from the enemy, it has done its job getting the Terminators there.

if the Crusader is Immobilized Midfield it can still shoot some of its weapons so can't be ignored and it can carry more terminators.

so, if it is a Terminator pimp ride then it doesn't matter. if it's going to be a gunboat then a Lascaoon raider is better.

Redeemers are good when you tankshock enemies into nice tight lines for flaming(Nids and Orks hate this)

**Acardia**

I agree I'm getting my first box this week and I think that Crusader is the right choice, enough firepower+ delivery system to get stuff done.

**pdawg517**

Grey Templar, Space marines hate it too!

Arcadia, I would just magnetize the sponsons. You can do both!

In my Vulkan lists I run the redeemer, but when I play a mix of LC's and TH/SS with a chappy I make use of all the room that the Crusader has.

**cosmic pixie**

Against MeQ, Redeemer.
Against GeQ, Crusader.
Against Tanks, take a LC Pred

**Ailaros**

well, you've got to remember that flamestorm cannons do exactly the same job against hordes as regular old heavy flamers.

This makes the redeemer an EXTREMELY expensive way to do, at best, a heavy flamer attack a turn.

**Grey Templar**

the difference is, the Redeemer will wound on 2s most of the time and will get Bigger targets on 4s most of the time.

HFs will wound on 3s against infantry and 5s againt big targets.

**Dracos**

Redeemer is tactically unsound IMO, due to the close range needed for the flamestorm cannons. I use a crusader regularly to devastating effect. You don't even need to fill it up to max capacity to justify fielding it. Toss on the multimelta and now you can fire all weapons while moving 6" (2x defensive, 1x primary and 1x machine spirit).

**oadie**

I wish I had magnetized for the flexibility, just to have the option of swapping out, but I built mine as a LRC and I don't imagine I'll ever really regret that. I'd rather have the range, flexibility, and volume of fire of the Hurricane Bolters than the increased STR and AP of the Flamestorm. You can still fire the HB point-blank, but you don't need to be in the enemy's face to get any use from it. Flamestorm will put out more hurt, but less frequently. Extra transport capacity of the LRC is nice, too, if you're going to use it. If you want flexibility, skip the LRR or magnetize. Come to think of it, I'd probably take a vanilla LR before I took a LRR.

**AlmightyWalrus**

oadie wrote:You can still fire the HB point-blank, but you don't need to be in the enemy's face to get any use from it.

I hope you realize that both the Crusader and the Redeemer have twin-linked assault cannons, not a twin-linked heavy bolter...

**JSK-Fox**

Remember that the hurricane bolters on the crusader are defensive weapons. You can fire a multi-melta, both hurricane bolters, and the assault cannon.

@AlmightyWalrus, he meant hurricane bolters.

**Samus_aran115**

Crusader. Although really, the godhammer lascannons are always Boss for me, so I stick with the usual variant.

Crusader looks cooler too. I believe they'res a way to make hurricane bolters, but I forgot. You just need a lot of bolters

**Grey Templar**

I have 2 LRCs and 1 normal LR.

never regretted it either.

one nice thing about Redeemers is they are slightly cheaper then the other 2 raiders, but only by 10 points.

**pdawg517**

In my experience with using the LRC exclusively, the hurricane bolters hardly did anything for me. Though I don't get to fire off the flamestorm cannons that often, they are a great psychological weapon. I have had many people try to walk up and melta the tank only to get flamestormed.

**Samus_aran115**

pdawg517 wrote:In my experience with using the LRC exclusively, the hurricane bolters hardly did anything for me. Though I don't get to fire off the flamestorm cannons that often, they are a great psychological weapon. I have had many people try to walk up and melta the tank only to get flamestormed.

I think that's actually the main pro of the redeemer

Am I the only one who thinks there needs to be a plasma-based land raider? Plasma is way more useful on tanks and I'd love double plasma cannons

**pdawg517**

A plasma based LR would be cool.

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, but it will probably be a DA thing if it does ever exist.

2 TL-Plasma cannons on the sides and 2 tl-plasma guns where the Assault cannon goes.

or Hurricane plasma guns.

**darkangels_rule**

Samus_aran115 wrote:
pdawg517 wrote:In my experience with using the LRC exclusively, the hurricane bolters hardly did anything for me. Though I don't get to fire off the flamestorm cannons that often, they are a great psychological weapon. I have had many people try to walk up and melta the tank only to get flamestormed.

I think that's actually the main pro of the redeemer

Am I the only one who thinks there needs to be a plasma-based land raider? Plasma is way more useful on tanks and I'd love double plasma cannons

PLASMA RAIDER ----------- DROOOOOOL

**Samus_aran115**

Give it to chaos though. All we've got is the regular one. You'd think chaos would use plasma more often, what with their "glory for the gods" sort of approach to things.

"How did maimicus die?
He shot a techmarine in the face with a plasma gun, but it got hot.
Did he kill the techmarine?
Yes.
He will recieve much glory from the fathers."

**Grey Templar**

Chaos will probably get the Crusader and maybe the Redeemer.

a Plasma raider will get stopped because "Chaos can't maintain their equipment very well"

they will get by with stealing LRCs and LRRs.

**Samus_aran115**

Grey Templar wrote:Chaos will probably get the Crusader and maybe the Redeemer.

a Plasma raider will get stopped because "Chaos can't maintain their equipment very well"

they will get by with stealing LRCs and LRRs.

Ah yes. Which explains why they don't steal imperial vehicles

Bull....

Anyway, I don't even think the loyalists can really maintain plasma that well. It's a lot of work!

**Azariah Kyras**

As a dark eldar and ork player. I can attest that the crusader is absolute murder. On one lucky turn, a single crusader killed my Warbass Thraka on his Waaaagh!

**labmouse42**

Use some earth magnets on the sponsons so you can hot swap em out. Try out both and see what you like more.

I used to love the crusader, but now I use the redeemer.