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It strikes me that even after having the codex for so long I just learned this yesterday, but Razorbacks can take twin linked assault cannons.

So I was wondering If this pattern actually gets used often? If it does, how does it perform... seems like an odd weapon choice for a razorback but I've never actually used it.

The only downside is price and range other wise it outperforms every other option in almost every situation

I'd say, good idea if you have extra points to spend and want something better than HB

There's a huge ongoing debate between people who think AC razors are the shiznit, and people who prefer the lascannon or las/plas versions.

The short version of the argument goes like this:

AC proponent, "Assault cannons kill everything better than lascannons!"

Las proponent, "Unless it's 25" away."

Personally I've used both and I much prefer las/plas.

Flavius Infernus wrote:There's a huge ongoing debate between people who think AC razors are the shiznit, and people who prefer the lascannon or las/plas versions.

The short version of the argument goes like this:

AC proponent, "Assault cannons kill everything better than lascannons!"

Las proponent, "Unless it's 25" away."

Personally I've used both and I much prefer las/plas.

Well with the Lascannon and TL Plasma Guns seem nice but I don't like the fact you move 6" you can only fire one or the other. If you moving 6" TL Assault Cannons can put multiple wounds down range where a Las/Plas can only do one unless your 12" then you can double tap.

Flavius Infernus wrote:AC proponent, "Assault cannons kill everything better than lascannons!"

Las proponent, "Unless it's 25" away."

Are Razorbacks typically used as transports these days? I wouldn't think getting within 24" of the enemy would be such a problem.

to me it comes down to the fact that if you need to kill a tank, assault cannons do squat. If you have enough heavy guns already, play around to your heart's content. I like having an extra lascannon or two to provide more threat

Brotherjulian wrote:to me it comes down to the fact that if you need to kill a tank, assault cannons do squat. If you have enough heavy guns already, play around to your heart's content. I like having an extra lascannon or two to provide more threat

You do know that assault cannons kill most tanks better than LCs right? Energy shields and living metal notwithstanding of course.

Also both LC and AC do crap compared to melta

General_Chaos wrote:Well with the Lascannon and TL Plasma Guns seem nice but I don't like the fact you move 6" you can only fire one or the other.

Wait wait wait...what?

Aren't they connected or something?

Nope, the whole "Lascannon AND twin linked plasma gun" implies two seperate weapons. My group usually throws the plasma bun on the same pintle the storm bolter goes on. Unless you have a storm bolter too, then it gets crowded.

This is useful since a single weapon destroyed result has to knock out one or the other, not both at once.

MekanobSamael wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:Well with the Lascannon and TL Plasma Guns seem nice but I don't like the fact you move 6" you can only fire one or the other.

Wait wait wait...what?

Aren't they connected or something?

They are, but being coaxial weapons apparently isn't enough, they have to be twin-linked.

To be honest, a razorback is a heavily armed transport imo. Depending on what troops you're carrying, you'll either put AC or las/plasma.

Personally, I would use AC if I was carrying anti-infantry troops. As a bonus, the AC can also kill light tanks.

If I were carrying tank hunters, then I'd take the las/plasma option.

General_Chaos wrote:

Well with the Lascannon and TL Plasma Guns seem nice but I don't like the fact you move 6" you can only fire one or the other. If you moving 6" TL Assault Cannons can put multiple wounds down range where a Las/Plas can only do one unless your 12" then you can double tap.

This is only an issue if you're playing your army as a "rush your transports forward all the time" army. Here's how it works in actual gameplay:

Early game: fire the lascannon at long range against transports (except not land raiders) to strand enemy troops on the other side of the table.

Midgame: advance to claim objectives or hold the center of the board or whatever. Sometimes you fire the lascannon here, sometimes the plasma shot is better because it's twin-linked.

Late game: As heavy infantry and stuff comes within 12" of you, massed razorbacks each firing 3XAP2 shots (2/3 of them twin-linked) can cripple or wipe out whole units of marines or terminators or whatever (even in cover, or in spite of storm shields or FNP), or clear objectives held by heavy infantry so that your own guys can claim it.

Sometimes, like in a KP game where you're up by a couple of points, you want to hide way off on your side of the board and plink at drop pods for bonus points or whatever. The lascannon lets you do that. Sometimes your opponent has a deepstriking deathstar that he's going to throw in your face early in the game, and a mass of razorbacks that can pour out those str7 & 9 AP2 shots in the turn after it drops will be at least a deterrent, at best a game-changer.

Assault cannons really only give you the one option: close to mid-range and roll dice, hoping to get a 6.

Also when you say that an assault cannon scores more wounds, you're not counting the 2-3 extra turns of shooting that the lascannon got as the monstrous creature (or whatever) ran across the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also add, though, that I do still sometimes use an assault cannon razorback. If it's a razor that I know is going to be moving forward to the center--like the one carrying my librarian into psychic hood range or whatever--then I'll sometimes use the AC turret on that one because it adds flexibility to the army as a whole.

All Assault Cannon razorbacks in an army--which I've seen before--has that major weakness, though, that if you run into a standoff army, like fully-mech Eldar or some Tau builds, they'll pick you apart from outside your range and you'll never get a shot at em.

The Assault cannon is anti-infantry and anti-light tank.
Mounted on a Razorback it can contribute to the synergy of your army.

I'd consider BA Razorbacks with heavy flamers, bought by an Assault squad - an absolute bargain.

The important feature is the fast status...meshes with any gun not long-ranged .

I would prefer the Heavy Bolter...keeps costs low, I don't rate the cost of the TL-AssC as 'cheap'.
It almost doubles the cost, even if it makes it that much more lethal.

AlexHolker wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:AC proponent, "Assault cannons kill everything better than lascannons!"

Las proponent, "Unless it's 25" away."

Are Razorbacks typically used as transports these days? I wouldn't think getting within 24" of the enemy would be such a problem.

It depends. I like to sit them on an objective with a combat squad; so in that case, TL Las or Las/Plas is better for me.

They're a transport but not for a full squad so whatever jumps out will get mulched, soyou generally don't go looking to run them directly up at the enemy...

Yeah, making the tank fast, as in BA, changes the whole question. Range matters a lot less when you can move 12" and shoot.

TL AssC RBs are for SM armies that close with the enemy quickly. Two that come to mind are SW and BA. Codex SM are best with either the TL LC or LC/TL Plas.

Ironhide wrote:TL AssC RBs are for SM armies that close with the enemy quickly. Two that come to mind are SW and BA. Codex SM are best with either the TL LC or LC/TL Plas.

Agreed, now need to find out how to make the weapon options from TLFW, Lasplas and TL AssC all magnatized.

I use the Assbacks regularly to great effect. Their biggest positive is that they can threaten anything. Of course, they have preferred targets like squadrons of light vehicles or MCs. However, against most potential targets the assback will deal more damage per turn of firing.

Their major drawback is the range, so your army needs to be built to support claiming midfield by turn 2. That way, you can use turn 1 popping smoke and moving 12" towards midfield. If you can't support an early midfield advance against a gunline then they will not work. Against CC armies this is not as much of an issue as they will be coming to you.

I play relatively aggressive builds of C:SM armies, and my lists support early advances like this.

I've never been one to spend to much on razorback as my transports usually get blown up anyway, the AC is unparalleled in infantry killing (and the fact that I usually just take the turret of my Landraider for it) but if your going to spend a lot of points on it you might as well take rhinos and use the extra points for a predator

For my Wolves, my Razorbacks are split between the TLAC and the TLLC pretty much even... My FT's go TLAC and the LC/Plas pretty evenly, though they tend to the jump pack more than armored... Fast makes them a pretty decent 36" ranged threat, but against heavy armor, the theory that the AC can take them isn't what I find on the table... Nice to clear stuff and it's a "cannot be ignored" threat, so yes... I'd say they CAN take a Land Raider down, but don't count on it of course... They do tend to make short work of light transports though... And my Grey Hunters love theirs, and they make the Wolf forces just a bit better to take on whatever is thrown at them... Roll forward until on the objective or in their lines, if it gets destroyed, get out and either they charge or you do, same result :-)

I've been running a las/Plas Razorback a lot in my recent games, with a mind toward maybe switching over to a TLAssCan someday.

I really like the Las/Plas (hereafter referred to by its fluff name of 'Stronos' ). I tend to park it in the backfield, and blast thin-skinned vehicles with the lascannon. If it's still alive by mid-game, I can start adding in the fire from the plasmaguns. There have been several games where I've not had to even move the Stronos around, as the lascannon was perfectly fine where it was, and I was getting a 4+ cover save for parking it half-behind a building or ruin.
The AssBack seems like it'd be great for moving quickly forward and claiming the center of the table. Use a turn of full-out movement, and own the center of the field with those assault cannons.

The fialing I've run into with the Stronos though, is that it's still just a Rhino chassis with AV 11/11/10. With the vehicle LOS rules, you're relying heavily on smoke launchers to keep you aive for that initial rush, and then you're only as resilient as a basic Rhino. So, you're going to have to spam those AssBacks to keep some of them firing, and then you run into points issues in your list.
If you've got somehting far more pressing to take some of the fire off the Razors, like pods full of killy infantry droppig in the opponent's line, even better.

Yet another problem with advancing to the midfield with lots of small units is close combat. Wolves and Blood Angels don't have as much of an issue withthis, having the equipment and rules to punch face regardless. Vanilla Marines don't have that luxury. Our basic troopers cannot hold the line under a sustained charge, especially when in MSU formation. Add in multi-charges against the Razors, and you can see your whole battle line quickly dissolve :(

I've found putting landspeeders in the list with your Assbacks are great ways to make target selection a problem. I also use a LRC since that is good for taking the center while blocking some lanes of fire and drawing some lascannon shots away from the more vulnerable light vehicles.

Right, and I should also specify that I'm assuming at least 3, and preferably 4-6 razorbacks--of whatever type--in the army, plus other vehicles in order for it all to work. If you're taking fewer than 3 and few or no other vehicles, then you can expect your razorbacks to get blown up without accomplishing much.

If you're taking only 1 or 2, you're better off with rhinos.

The points cost alone keeps me from upgrading my RBs... If you have the points though the Assback(love that phrase) is a really nice thing to have around.

Monster Rain wrote:The points cost alone keeps me from upgrading my RBs... If you have the points though the Assback(love that phrase) is a really nice thing to have around.

Well you can always drop 5 guys from your tac squad to pay for the razorback. That's how razor spam works.

A rhino with a full tac squad gives you 10 guys, a special weapon, a heavy weapon that can't move & shoot, and an AR11 vehicle for about 225-250 points.

A razorback with 5 guys gives you 5 fewer guys, but a combi (codex marines) or special (SW/BA) weapon, a heavy weapon that moves & shoots, and an AR11 vehicle for about 150-180 points.

So you can get about 3 razors for about the same cost as 2 rhinos, netting you 5 fewer guys, but one extra scoring unit, one extra special & heavy weapon that can move & shoot, and an extra vehicle.

True, but I prefer having a 10 man squad with a combi and a special weapon...

I also like having the bodies on the table, particularly if I might run into a horde of Boyz or something. The Heavy Bolter works well against that, and the meltas are good for everything else.

As for Codex Marines I like having the 5 extra guys hanging in the backfield with the Heavy Weapon.

General_Chaos wrote:As for Codex Marines I like having the 5 extra guys hanging in the backfield with the Heavy Weapon.

That too. A combi-melta and Powerfist toting sergeant with another melta in a razorback or rhino with the other half of the squad blasting away with a Missile Launcher or Plasma Cannon is a nice thing