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Why so little on a first founding chapter? I literally no nothing about them save the meager entry in Lexicanium. What has caught my attention is that the Lexicanium states that they are always attempting to better themselves. I assume via technology but at some point that has to cross the line to obsession and ultimately renegade right?

How would you represent this on the board, it would not look right just to be a normal SM force in black.

The Iron Hands tactical squad box comes with all kinds of sick bionic bits to help you purge the weak flesh from your Chapter.

Very cool stuff. You also get some rather unique Thunder Hammers IIRC.

Monster Rain wrote:The Iron Hands tactical squad box comes with all kinds of sick bionic bits to help you purge the weak flesh from your Chapter.

Very cool stuff. You also get some rather unique Thunder Hammers IIRC.

Where can one get said box?

Look on the GW site. I'm pretty sure they'll have it. I'd link to it, but its a hassle on my phone.

Monster Rain wrote:Look on the GW site. I'm pretty sure they'll have it. I'd link to it, but its a hassle on my phone.

Found it but before I do a lot of anthing with these guys I would like to know more about them in general, anyone?

I know I am asking a super braod question but any help would be appreciated.

They didnt go renegade, just isolated themselves from the other chapters and 2nd foundings.
Ferrus Manus was the cause of thier obsession with bionics as you more than likely know.
His death caused an outrage in the iron hands, pushing them towards bionics as they believed flesh was too weak and not reliable enough.

Its in the space marine collectors section on the site.
Comes with front chest pieces, pads, heads, arms, bolters, thunder hammer, legs and all the basic tactical squad junk.
All in all, after the price hike its only a bit more expensive than a normal squad.

If you want them to look taller and more imposing, the bionic legs make them a bit taller, or you could use warriors of chaos parts.
The plastic unit has some pretty decent legs on it for style, but would need some hacking done to make them fit.

If you want layout for an army:

They dont have chaplains, instead they use iron fathers who are a mix between tech marines and chaplains.
If you run one i would go with either rules, bot would suit it fine. (tech marine model with a bit of change will work great)

Dreadnoughts are rare as most were destroyed in the drop massacre, the ones that are left are kept for dire need, including one venerable who has a pretty big back history.

Terminators are pretty much the same, most were destroyed and the ones left and kept intact, veterans are however allowed to use them in dire needs, but dont usually form squads (they can, but its very rare)
They instead wear termie armour to lead a tactical squad instead.

All in all, i'd go with a very mechanical look to them, so pose them as if they are marching forward, firing.
As of that, they would take alot of damage, so include alot of battle damage on the models.


Hope some of that helps.

I'd read the bit in the newest codex about the purging of the Contqual Sector to learn about how they think and operate as a chapter.

They are one of the more unorthodox first founding's. They don't have chapters. They are divided into ten clans that are of roughly the same as a chapter in size. Who all maintain their own mobile fortress. And forge, maintain and supply their own supplies. Each act as independent units. Except when a meeting of clans is called. headed by the leader of each clan. This chapter has likely the closest ties a space marine chapter is known to have with the adetpus mechanicus. And are seemingly obsessed with replacing their biological body parts with machinery. Starting with a hand once initiates pass their tests and therapies. progressing with their career to extensive mechanical replacements. Terminator armour is also harder to come by in this army. They lost most of their suits of it at the drop site massacre. And are still replacing it. Speculation is that they favor robotic body part replacement as a way to make penance for not being able to save their primarch from being killed. To make themselves better to the point that they could maybe have saved him. Another quirk of this chapter is that techmarines usually being black sheep amongst most chapters and distrusted, are greatly admired and even revered in the iron hands. Treated as sage council and are integral to the leadership of each clan.

That should give you a better idea of them.

Organization wise. Go for maybe armour, dreadnoughts and plenty of bionics represented on models.

The conversion opportunities for this chapter are amazing, despite what the fluff says i cannot imagine that a Chapter steeped in Technological lore and skills (like the Praetors of Orpheus) are short of Terminator suits especially as they have had the better part of 10,000 years since the drop site massacre. If they cannot replace suits in that time they need to reconsider their calling. I think Terminators could exist in small squads of 5, i would just "Fluff" them massively by giving them lots bionics. Like the old terminator inquisitor model featured below, with bionics looks very good and would translate well to Iron hands.

I think if i was doing this chapter i would spend hundreds of pounds at Forge World making them look amazing, its just too easy to spend money! I would buy lots of Armour, maybe 2 dreads and a Venerable Dread.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:They didnt go renegade, just isolated themselves from the other chapters and 2nd foundings.
Ferrus Manus was the cause of thier obsession with bionics as you more than likely know.
His death caused an outrage in the iron hands, pushing them towards bionics as they believed flesh was too weak and not reliable enough.

Right hence their obsession with bionics and mechanical what not. I could have sworn I read somewhere that their obsession was becomming so great that their vows to the Emperor where in instances being clouded for their pursuit for technology...seems like an interesting concept especially since they are supposed to have a very strong tie with Mars and that whole hot mess.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Its in the space marine collectors section on the site.
Comes with front chest pieces, pads, heads, arms, bolters, thunder hammer, legs and all the basic tactical squad junk.
All in all, after the price hike its only a bit more expensive than a normal squad.

I found it, looks promising although it is a shame that forgeworld hasnt put out anything. Seems like a wonderful modeling opportunity for a forge father or what not.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:If you want them to look taller and more imposing, the bionic legs make them a bit taller, or you could use warriors of chaos parts.
The plastic unit has some pretty decent legs on it for style, but would need some hacking done to make them fit.
If you want layout for an army:

They dont have chaplains, instead they use iron fathers who are a mix between tech marines and chaplains.
If you run one i would go with either rules, bot would suit it fine. (tech marine model with a bit of change will work great)

Well I would probably run a master of the forge as my HQ which than opens up the door to his obvious trait...

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Dreadnoughts are rare as most were destroyed in the drop massacre, the ones that are left are kept for dire need, including one venerable who has a pretty big back history.

When exactly did this occure and how can I find information about this? Seems logical that dreadnought interment would be the ultimate prize for a chapter that is infatuated with technology. If this happened during the heresy it seems as though they would have been able to rebuild their stock (not exactly sure how they would do that but it does seem logical as dreadnoughts have to be completely destroyed on a pretty regular basis.) Especially with a want in place to replace the flesh.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Terminators are pretty much the same, most were destroyed and the ones left and kept intact, veterans are however allowed to use them in dire needs, but dont usually form squads (they can, but its very rare)
They instead wear termie armour to lead a tactical squad instead.

While I also see this it seems that an army that pursues technology and meddling with the flesh would do everything in their power to get this "power" back. I cant believe that these things are 100% from the age of Legions as termie armor just would not sustain thousands of years of conflict without any loss at all, especially if they are actively looking for it. If this was the case how has the Deathwing survived...

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:All in all, i'd go with a very mechanical look to them, so pose them as if they are marching forward, firing.
As of that, they would take alot of damage, so include alot of battle damage on the models.

Hope some of that helps.

Agreed.

Ok so what I am trying to do is run a drop pod list utilizing the master of the forge and trying to find a chapter that could facilitate this, seems as the Iron Hands would be the ones but maybe someone else?


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mwnciboo wrote:The conversion opportunities for this chapter are amazing, despite what the fluff says i cannot imagine that a Chapter steeped in Technological lore and skills (like the Praetors of Orpheus) are short of Terminator suits especially as they have had the better part of 10,000 years since the drop site massacre. If they cannot replace suits in that time they need to reconsider their calling. I think Terminators could exist in small squads of 5, i would just "Fluff" them massively by giving them lots bionics. Like the old terminator inquisitor model featured below, with bionics looks very good and would translate well to Iron hands.

I think if i was doing this chapter i would spend hundreds of pounds at Forge World making them look amazing, its just too easy to spend money! I would buy lots of Armour, maybe 2 dreads and a Venerable Dread.

This is in essence what I am debating on starting or not, it is one hell of a project but I want to run a very specific list that is loaded with drop pod vens led by a master of the forge...it seems logical but the game is always more fun for me when i can build a fluffy army.

Although I dont run a seer council in my siam hann list...

...it seems logical but the game is always more fun for me when i can build a fluffy army.

A man after my own heart on this one.

Check out this, however you'll need to sell one of your kidneys to afford it!


Old style armour for conversions, definite contenders for sternguard.
Check out this one for a fans efforts some of his stuff is amazing.
http://www.ironhands.com/minmarih.htm

If you need any SM stuff give me a shout I have alot of spares. PM me and i'll send anything i've got over to Washington state!

While terminator armour can be rebuilt, its not the ability they lack.
The armour its self if of an old design and is not simply a case of starting production, there are a ton on things that comes into it.
Ill try and dig up some fluff for you on the armour, that explains alot more in depth about it.
All in all, its not something they can just re-build as much as they want, there are certain constraints to it.
Deathwing have a very large supply of tactical dreadnought armour, again, ill drag up some fluff for you as this explains this part aswell.


Dreadnoughts are again the same as the armour, constraints stop them from mass producing such an item.
Its not just that, but to be put into a dreadnought alone is one of the greatest honours to the iron hands, so they have to perform a deed that is considered heroic enough.
The normal marines go by this aswell, but the deed would be far greater for an iron hands marine to be entombed into the dreadnought.

The iron hands still fight for the emperor, they just persue thier own goal at the same time, believing that they could have saves ferrus.
This anger and hatred to thier flesh is also an advancement towards serving, as it would make them strong enough to carry out any duty required.




Army wise:

Going pre-heresy, heresy or post heresy?

If your going pre, the iron armour posted here is a great bet, a little expensive, but worth it IMO.
then work up to maximus.
If going for current, i would filter the parts you use, or work from bitz sites.
The basic tac squad has a few parts that will work well, but you dont get many.
Just a case of picking through those to find what you need.

Anything you could find jack would be wicked awesome.

I am definitely planning on going Post heresy but would still like to do a mix of some pre-heresy and heresy era stuff on seargents and stuff. For my Iron father I plan to do a lot of conversion which is rough mode as I am not all that good with green stuff and rather inexperienced in general. So this is bound to be a very long project.

Right now I am trying to figure out what kind of army I want to run versus what is being displayed in the fluff. From a fluff standpoint your taking dreads and termies away from me which is taking away alot of my vision and motivation. It's not bad just got to figure things out as running a normal SM setup that is tank heavy and runs an HQ as master of the forge is not all that interesting to me.

So basically if you take an Archeological team to Istavaan IV you could dig up some of the suits! Exterminatus doesn't melt armour does it? The fire storm would surely kill only organic matter? Anyway I appreciate that the Imperium is on the backward side of the technology graph heading downward but surely they could get hold of Terminator suits. The IRON HANDS must have found some Tactical Dreadnought Armour searching old space Hulks etc over the last 10,000 years.
Maybe they have metal/robotic/Cybernetic bodies with a shell that is made to resemble a Terminator but isn't exactly a carbon copy of a Kosher Terminator, how about that ? So it looks the part and plays the part, if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck, it just might be.......a witch (I think i've got confused on this one)

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Anything you could find jack would be wicked awesome.

I am definitely planning on going Post heresy but would still like to do a mix of some pre-heresy and heresy era stuff on seargents and stuff. For my Iron father I plan to do a lot of conversion which is rough mode as I am not all that good with green stuff and rather inexperienced in general. So this is bound to be a very long project.

Right now I am trying to figure out what kind of army I want to run versus what is being displayed in the fluff. From a fluff standpoint your taking dreads and termies away from me which is taking away alot of my vision and motivation. It's not bad just got to figure things out as running a normal SM setup that is tank heavy and runs an HQ as master of the forge is not all that interesting to me.

In the third edition rules you could give any veteran sergeant in the iron hands termie armour, that was the trade off with losing terminator squads.

whatwhat wrote:

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Anything you could find jack would be wicked awesome.

I am definitely planning on going Post heresy but would still like to do a mix of some pre-heresy and heresy era stuff on seargents and stuff. For my Iron father I plan to do a lot of conversion which is rough mode as I am not all that good with green stuff and rather inexperienced in general. So this is bound to be a very long project.

Right now I am trying to figure out what kind of army I want to run versus what is being displayed in the fluff. From a fluff standpoint your taking dreads and termies away from me which is taking away alot of my vision and motivation. It's not bad just got to figure things out as running a normal SM setup that is tank heavy and runs an HQ as master of the forge is not all that interesting to me.

In the third edition rules you could give any veteran sergeant in the iron hands termie armour, that was the trade off with losing terminator squads.

In 4th edition you could do it too. I miss the days of a hidden Thunder Hammer or Lightning Claws in the Tactical Squad...

It has been 10,000+ years since the Heresy and the Drop Site Massacre.

I am fairly confident that the Iron Hands have since recovered and you can, quite reasonably, field whatever you want.

In fact, due to their close(ish) relationship with Mars and the overall leanings of the Chapter, doubly so!

Alph: By all means it is a slight possibility, but full recovery is impossible.
Dreadnoughts and termie armour are kept by the iron hands, but rarely used as they dont want them damaged.
If one of thier mobile bases were to be attacked, they would indeed use everything at thier disposal, so that could be good grounds for fielding them in masse.
Just call it a defence force, that way it makes sense to have such a large amount of both termies and/or dreads in the army.


As for fluff on the termie suits:

Today there is no such thing as a "new" suit of Terminator armour. Like cathedrals, they are in a constant state of repair and renewal. If an additional suit is required, it is cobbled together from refurbished parts salvaged from the remains of Marines killed in action. This explains the frequently disparate and ragged look of Terminator squads. Of course new components are produced, but the expense is so great that it is avoided if at all possible. Indeed, as time marches onward the knowledge of how to fabricate some of the more complex pieces becomes an increasingly faded memory in the decrepit minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and "reverse engineering" is an all-too-common science in the 41st millennium.

So likewise, its the cost that stops mass production, so they rather keep and repair what they can, rather than have to sap resources building more.

Alpharius wrote:It has been 10,000+ years since the Heresy and the Drop Site Massacre.

I am fairly confident that the Iron Hands have since recovered and you can, quite reasonably, field whatever you want.

In fact, due to their close(ish) relationship with Mars and the overall leanings of the Chapter, doubly so!

This will probably be the route I go. Especially since there really does not appear to be much about the Iron Hands and if it makes sense for anyone to have a huge tendancy towards technology it would be them.


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mwnciboo wrote:So basically if you take an Archeological team to Istavaan IV you could dig up some of the suits! Exterminatus doesn't melt armour does it? The fire storm would surely kill only organic matter? Anyway I appreciate that the Imperium is on the backward side of the technology graph heading downward but surely they could get hold of Terminator suits. The IRON HANDS must have found some Tactical Dreadnought Armour searching old space Hulks etc over the last 10,000 years.
Maybe they have metal/robotic/Cybernetic bodies with a shell that is made to resemble a Terminator but isn't exactly a carbon copy of a Kosher Terminator, how about that ? So it looks the part and plays the part, if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck, it just might be.......a witch (I think i've got confused on this one)

Sorry the idea of a chapter thats soul determination is that aquisition of technology to become better warriors and replace flesh with machine to not be pursuing or using these things is ridiculous to me. It has been 10k years if they cant utilize some of the most important war assets to a marine chapter they woulld cease to exist. I will argue that in 10k years they have been able to find, scrap together, made a pact with mars, or any other concievable plot turn to do this.

I guess to me if I wanted to play a generic marines list I would not be comming to this chapter. If the raven gaurd can bounce back after the drop pod massacre why cant these guys in a scary way.

Obsession and cost tend to outweigh eachother for them, which is the only drawback.


However, they store all armour in thier mobile bases, so if that was under attack, they would be used without question.
Same would apply to a large scale attack they are launching.

All in all, the fluff is pretty much saying they wont use such things in small patrols and the like.
Large scale and high priority would be a must for thier use.





Also, after reading your thread ive dug out a few iron hands models (from the tac squad) and got them painted lol, think its time i got back into them now.


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Quick edit to my post:


Raven's bounced back easily due to low cost high quantity of jump packs.
and also the increaced recruitment (didnt last long as the process was made quicker, this however caused mutations, and thier chapter master to leave in shame after locking himself away)
but all in all, raven guard can easily aquire packs and basic gear they used.

Also, dont forget ferrus was killed, so the death of thier chapter master put iron hands into disarray for a long time.


Iron hands used far older and alot more expensive gear.


Irons hands dont do alot of boarding actions into hulks, they tend to keep away from such things as it puts them at risk and could stunt advancement.
they instead keep an ongoing relationship with the techpriests of mars, so they rather work towards different items, while maintaining the older items in a steady number.


Exterminatus destroys everything, thats the whole point of it.
If the planet lives (big if) its would be considered a death world.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Obsession and cost tend to outweigh eachother for them, which is the only drawback.


However, they store all armour in thier mobile bases, so if that was under attack, they would be used without question.
Same would apply to a large scale attack they are launching.

All in all, the fluff is pretty much saying they wont use such things in small patrols and the like.
Large scale and high priority would be a must for thier use.


Also, after reading your thread ive dug out a few iron hands models (from the tac squad) and got them painted lol, think its time i got back into them now.

Was not presumming that their available terminator armor would all be so fresh and so clean clean but that they would be able to utilize a 5 man on the field for important missions.

i.e. "yo boss that space hulk is bound to have some old valuable tech and might give us the opportunity to find more suits in its reactor"


Yay motivation!

I dont know I am planning on running a very large dread force with this, probably all venerable to show their rarity and value to the iron hands. Probably wont be able to get this started for a few months but I will definitely think of doing a project log when I am ready.


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۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Raven's bounced back easily due to low cost high quantity of jump packs.
and also the increaced recruitment (didnt last long as the process was made quicker, this however caused mutations, and thier chapter master to leave in shame after locking himself away)
but all in all, raven guard can easily aquire packs and basic gear they used.

Also, dont forget ferrus was killed, so the death of thier chapter master put iron hands into disarray for a long time.


Iron hands used far older and alot more expensive gear.


Irons hands dont do alot of boarding actions into hulks, they tend to keep away from such things as it puts them at risk and could stunt advancement.
they instead keep an ongoing relationship with the techpriests of mars, so they rather work towards different items, while maintaining the older items in a steady number.


Exterminatus destroys everything, thats the whole point of it.
If the planet lives (big if) its would be considered a death world.

That does not make sense to me, why wouldnt they board hulks that seems right up their alley. So much potential for old tech...

I get the Raven gaurd thing I was just attempting to jump swing the fact that 10k is a long long time to not rebuld and be functioning. Based off of what you are telling me in their fluff does not jive at all. For instance you are showing me a cat but it does not have any of the traits of a cat.

Why not take iron clads aswell?
sieges would be somewhat important to the iron hands, so they would be using the best weapons at thier disposal.

Not just that, but the iron clad seems to fit the iron hands theme to no end, and looks great

Fluff wise, there could be any number of reasons why they are using alot of dreads and termies.
Its only in general they dont use them.


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Boarding actions would be, if they found a way other than terminators to do it.
They wont risk something they have so few of.
With terminators being the only options for boarding (without risking far too many losses) such an event would be very rare, and they would have to know there was something there of such importance that it warrented such actions.


10,000 years isnt alot when over half of that was the loss of ferrus and working out a new chapter organization. (no more chapter master, simply a council of masters from each mobile base)


anyway, off to grab my MW2 fix, back later

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Why not take iron clads aswell?
sieges would be somewhat important to the iron hands, so they would be using the best weapons at thier disposal.

Not just that, but the iron clad seems to fit the iron hands theme to no end, and looks great

Fluff wise, there could be any number of reasons why they are using alot of dreads and termies.
Its only in general they dont use them.


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Boarding actions would be, if they found a way other than terminators to do it.
They wont risk something they have so few of.
With terminators being the only options for boarding (without risking far too many losses) such an event would be very rare, and they would have to know there was something there of such importance that it warrented such actions.


10,000 years isnt alot when over half of that was the loss of ferrus and working out a new chapter organization. (no more chapter master, simply a council of masters from each mobile base)


anyway, off to grab my MW2 fix, back later

Well the idea is to drop pod everything. Iron clads would be a good contender for initial drops to pop what needs to be popped.

I understand exactly what your saying about the hulks although they could board with jump pack-less assault marines. While this is dangerous and time consuming I do see it as viable. I imagine that a space hulk is a huge huge huge opportunity for a chapter looking for technology. worth the risk in my opinion. Losses would be worth every penny as long as they are not losing what they are seeking...

Now trying to figure out how to convert a chaplin/techmarine in chaptech marine... Interesting...

Dropclads work great, just watch out where you drop them.
sounds dumb, but allways take a melta and drop behind a tank, this should make sure you get it, if not, you can assault.

Not possible.
Alot of old hulks are full of biomatter than dissolves normal armour, makes it impossible to breath, or is too dangerous.
That was why terminator armour was made in the 1st place.
It gave them a weapon that made boarding actions on old hulks possible.
Also, going near a reactor core would dissolve basic armour, again, terminator armour can withstand it to the degree they can get the job done.

A basic assault marine would have to use a transport to get into the ship, which means time and cost of breaching a thick hull, then theres a very high chance they will die inside (if they even get that far)

so yea, little history lesson about the origin of tactical dreadnought armour

Best bet is to build part of your army 1st so you have plenty of spare parts.
The techmarine without a servo harness would work great.
Theres your base, his right hand would need replacing from the elbow down as it has a controller in it.
The power axe is fine, but you may want to re-possition it a bit.
Other than that, just need to add a few spare parts to him.

I agree with most of the above, but does exterminatus actually destroy physical structures and organic life or only organic life. What does it actually destroy, the reason i ask is that IIRC moutains and all that remain, so a terminator suit would survive but the wearer would be killed. This is from the Lexicanum and i believe that exterminatus kills a populous not the Planet itself?

Exterminatus

Exterminatus is the obliteration of a world's entire population through some form of weapon used from orbit or nearby space.
It is the most extreme method of dealing with some form of heresy, corruption or alien infiltration which has taken root within a planet's population. Accordingly it is only used in the most extreme of circumstances, when the level of corruption a world bears is so monumental that it cannot be wiped out by any other means. The destruction of the entire population is deemed necessary to prevent the contagion from spreading further.
Exterminatus is essentially one of the many tools in the armoury of the Imperium, used in those cases where complete destruction is deemed a better solution than more subvert or conventional methods. The world in question may have fallen to Chaos worship, or its Imperial government overthrown and replaced by the rule of aliens such as Genestealers, or it may be a non-Imperial world harbouring an extraordinarily powerful and dangerous species of alien. Exterminatus is often resorted to when the world is deemed to be not worth the amount of men and materiel that would be required to conquer or reclaim it. Exterminatus is very rarely used on planets vital or valuable to the Imperium.
The Exterminatus order can be given by any Inquisitor. An astropath will relay the order to a Space Marine Chapter nearest the condemned world. Upon receiving the order, the Space Marine fleet will be dispatched with the desired methods of annihilation. These include:
Virus bombs
Cyclonic torpedo
Atmospheric incinerator torpedo

So a Virus Bomb would be a form of exterminatus that would not destroy physical infrastructure? Am i wrong on this? Plus I believe the Iron Hands would grab any ship XENO or otherwise in the hope of gaining TECH from it, which is pretty much their "Rasion D'etre"

My understanding is that Exterminatus came in 3 varieties.

Virus born - Kiills all organic life
Atmospheric born - completely eliminates the atmosphere
Techtonic born - cracks the earths crust rendering the planet so geologiclly active that it is inhospitable for thousands if not millions of years if not compltely torn assunder.

From what I understand it is not that common for the techtonic method. Everything else would still render mountains, rocks, metal, etc but nothing living. I would also assume that the virus dies when there is no hosts for it to consume and while it may remain dormant for a time it would inevitably die off over 100's of years or something. At this point the planet could still be cultivated for relics with the proper equipment etc. At the site of the dropship massacre...I dont know what ended up happening to that planet but I believe it was techtonic born and thus everything was unsalvagable.

Regardless I dont see why after 10k years of rebuilding, etc that they would still have nothing or piece-meal anything. 10k years is a bloody long time ladies and gentleman. 4k years ago in human history the Egyptians did not exist.

To assume that a chapter (whos primary function is war) has not regained operational use of two of its most important armorments despite those two things being it's "Raison d'etre" is completely obsurd. Although I think most of this is due to GW's gross neglect of this chapter and other chapters as well. Obviously I dont belive GW has the rescources or the scope to handle this IP in every faculty but still leaves us sitting here going hmm lets make a topic about this.

So why ask for fluff and backround when you want it changed? 0_o
by all means make an un-fluffy army, nothing is stopping you, but you cant change what has been written for them because you dont like it.

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Although I think most of this is due to GW's gross neglect of this chapter and other chapters as well.

I am actually glad GW leave some first founding chapters fluff to the imagination and discretion of the players.

Also as far as I know they didn't do the clan system after Ferrus died. They already operated like that by the time he died. Each clan prides itself on self sufficiency and feel that competition between the clans is a good thing. Another way to keep them strong.