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The more i read my armybook and see lists and battle reports the more i start to figure out that the dragon as a mount is becomeing more of a hinderance than a boost, it costs far to many points to be a viable ypgrade to take in 25% of 2000 or less.
Please if i am wrong show me another way but as far as i am concerned rightnow the time of the dragon is dead

Correct.. With needing 2 ranks of models to deny enemy ranks GW basically made most single model units totally obsolete. Also cannons kill the entire model now!

Imo was quite unneeded and makes list building a lot less fun. There is very little reason to take such models over larger blocks

i've played 3 games now and each time my wizard miscast with 4 dice and then roolled 2-4 then a 1-3 and just died taking out alot of people.

Gonna switch to a treeman ancient and someone on blackdragon or manticore... Magic isn't going my way

also which page does it say you need 2 ranks to deny ranks?

is it just stops steadfast or completely break all ranks?

Personally this makes me sad that things like dragons are out now as to me they where half the fun of the game, and now with the new rules my dream of making a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon are completly dashed. Having these big fantastical monsters was apart of the appeal. That being said I'm still running my Saurus Oldblood on his Carnosaur.

Well- I think it's early to pronounce them dead. They just are unlikely to stomp through solo. But put a dragon in the flank with cheap troops providing ranks to negate steadfast, and you're in business.

They'll still eat through smaller units solo as well. A star dragon has something like 6 strength 7 attacks at WS 7, with an extra D6 Strength 7 thunderstomp hits, and once per game can blast that breath weapon. That's a pretty appalling damage potential that doesn't even count the rider...

Edit: Horrendous syntax in the first couple lines!

Red_Zeke wrote:Well- I think it's early to pronounce them dead. They just are unlikely to stomp through solo. But put a dragon in the flank while cheap troops tie provide ranks to negate steadfast, and you're in business.

They'll still eat through smaller units solo as well. A star dragon has something like 6 strength 7 attacks at WS 7, with an extra D6 Strength 7 thunderstomp hits, and once per game can blast that breath weapon. That's a pretty appalling damage potential that doesn't even count the rider...

This.

Dragons and the like aren't dead in 8th, they just take a lot more finesse to use.

If I can get the Masque to win combat solo against a fully ranked unit(albeit one without command) for a couple turns, I expect that a Dragon with Rider would be able to as well in the right circumstance.

Dragons are now less a "smash through units like dominos" and more "Tear a unit apart until it loses Steadfast" mixed with "Hammer alongside other steadfast unit for combo-charge victory".

You can't use them to break apart lines any more, but you can still (provided your mount has Breath Weapons or isn't limited to only three attacks [insert general fist shaking at Wyverns]) tear apart a big block in short order, with some (dura-Elf Lord on Star Dragon) requiring a Lord of your own to have any shot at defeating outside a "You're tarpitted now, har har".

I agree that dragons arn't really dead in the new rules, though they will be harder to use and thus probably a little less common (though they should be uncommon they're F---'n dragons) they're still damage dealing menaces and hella hard to kill (personally working on a beastman army and fearing dragons severely myself.)

There's two things making dragons harder to use. First up, it's harder to fit them into low points games... this is a good thing. Having dragons fly about in 2,000 points games was silly, either someone had some big guns or an unbreakable unit to hold it up a couple of turns, or he was out of luck. Games determined by army match ups are bad games.

The second thing limiting dragons is their inability to break enemy units in a single turn with the new steadfast rules. Dragons, like a lot of units with small numbers but loads of damage output will need to be used in conjunction with other units. This strikes me as a much more interesting approach to the game than 'my dragon runs straight at the front of your unit and kills some dudes before they break, then turns and runs into some other unit next...'

Dragons are viable, their damage output is great and that is worth as much as ever - because it isn't enough to simply have loads of ranks to soak wounds, you will need stuff to kill the enemy as well. It's just that dragons can't wipe whole units by themselves anymore.

Not a dragon, but my brothers Old-blood on carnosaur ripped through my corsairs. Got into my backlines and charged some crossbowmen, they failed panic test and got run down etc.
Ended up killing all my crossbows and spearmen then found morathi and ate her too.
My fault for taking no bolt throwers but still, If a monster manages to get through your lines then bad stuff gonna happen!
- Problem here i guess is that the old-blood is pretty much as tough as a dragon, Elf riders probably alot easier to kill.

Monsters are awesome!
Thunderstomp is a killer which pushes up your combat res alot!

At my store, monster use has gone up and people are trying to use that spell in lore of Beasts to turn their mage into a dragon.

I just dug out my old old old Great Horned dragon to use for my Beastmen.

My fear of big monsters (like dragons) ALWAYS makes me go "hmm what can really do damage in this list"

I make sure I have a few high S attacks/spells and maybe a heroic killing blow in each high point list just in case

Athera wrote:At my store, monster use has gone up and people are trying to use that spell in lore of Beasts to turn their mage into a dragon.

I just dug out my old old old Great Horned dragon to use for my Beastmen.

Sounds awesome. You have any pics to share by any chance?

I think this discussion is great and right on-point. Dragons and the like are NOT dead, just a different beast to use now. I think it makes everything better

For non-mounted monsters, things are great, too. My treemen are scary with thunderstomp now. Sure, they can't break ranks, but they can kill a LOT of stuff, which is always good

The closest thing my empire list has to a dragon is a steam tank. It basically follows the same rules.... will win you a combat when it hits with the 6d6 impact hits, and if you select that combat carefully it can be a gamebreaker.

No thunderstomp though :(

The thing is, my empire guys don't really have an answer for a dragon that manages to get into combat. If the cannons don't take it out in turn 1 or 2, it can leapfrog from combat to combat and basically take no damage in return.

So I suggest you build a lot of really tall terrain

For me Dragons are part of the charm of fantasy, I think only the the die hard competitive players may shy from them.

I think that in any army I decide to collect I would always sacrifice some more tried and tested units to fit a dragon in.

And besides for an army centrepiece what more could you ask for than a giant flying reptile of killy goodness

WombleJim wrote:For me Dragons are part of the charm of fantasy, I think only the the die hard competitive players may shy from them.

A sign of the 8thpocalypse...

I can see a Chaos Lord with Stream of Corruption combined with the breath weapons of the chaos dragon destroying giant units. The chaos dragon can use both breath weapons in the same turn.

That's 6d6 auto hits with varying levels of horror plus regular attacks...YIKES

The lord on dragon can still crush an enemy character or war machine, he causes terror, and projects his leadership 18".

But we are talking about something like 750 points with all the magic items and gifts and marks...

Question. If a Lord on a Dragon charges a unit and the Champion Challenges then both the Dragon and Lord are only allowed to attack the Champion. Would the Champion suffer the full brunt of the Breath attacks or would those still hit the whole unit as normal?

It would go against the character, you cannot direct attacks against anything but what is in the challenge.

I mentioned it in another thread, but I'll mention it again here because it's relevant. Even if in a Challenge, the Thunder Stomp and Breath attacks should still carry over into the unit. It's stupid that one lone Champion can tie up a Lord on a giant mount like that.

Where's my option for casually eating the Champion when he steps forward and then smashing his unit?

Its all about pride.

If someone challenges this mighty fighter and his dragon you can bet he will probably smash that guy to a pulp in a display of his power.

I don't think a Blood Frenzied Carnosaur really cares about Pride though.

ShivanAngel wrote:Its all about pride.

If someone challenges this mighty fighter and his dragon you can bet he will probably smash that guy to a pulp in a display of his power.

And you're still likely to get a big overkill bonus so its all good.

On the dragon subject, i have to agree that they're a part of WHFB, nothing screams fantasy like a dragon. I think that they are different in the new rules, but people will still take them.

Aduro wrote:I mentioned it in another thread, but I'll mention it again here because it's relevant. Even if in a Challenge, the Thunder Stomp and Breath attacks should still carry over into the unit. It's stupid that one lone Champion can tie up a Lord on a giant mount like that.

Where's my option for casually eating the Champion when he steps forward and then smashing his unit?

Nope.

In a challenge, ALL attacks are dealt to the enemy you are fighting a challenge with.

"These two characters must direct ALL of their attacks against each other - they cannot be attacked by any other model for that round of close combat."
(102)

"If a competitor in a challenge is riding a mount, then that mount MUST direct its attacks against either the other competitor or the competitor's mount (if he is riding one.)"
(103)

It's pretty straightforward. Breath weapon acts as auto-hitting close-combat attacks and thunderstomp counts as auto-hitting close-combat attacks. Neither one is a randomized shooting attack. They're simply additional close combat attacks which MUST all be directed at the opponent in a challenge because the rules say so.

Dragon charges tiny troop unit with 2 ranks, champion challenges dragon, dragon Must accept, no models except champion can be attacked because of the challenge and the unit takes a steadfast leadership test after champ dies. It's part of the necessity of buying champs for anvil units in 8th.

in regards to this do my area attacks still hit the whole unit thing, has anyone ever played the tbs whfb video game? mark of chaos or whatever. I just bring it up because in that whenever a champion made a duel challenge against someone all the rank and file would clear a great big area around them, maybe in the tabletop game this is sort of what would happen as well the rest of the unit doesn't get thunderstomped cause they've cleared back to a safe distance.

blak43 wrote:in regards to this do my area attacks still hit the whole unit thing, has anyone ever played the tbs whfb video game? mark of chaos or whatever. I just bring it up because in that whenever a champion made a duel challenge against someone all the rank and file would clear a great big area around them, maybe in the tabletop game this is sort of what would happen as well the rest of the unit doesn't get thunderstomped cause they've cleared back to a safe distance.

There are no area attacks in close-combat. There are templates in shooting but they don't apply in combat.

In a challenge, the models in the challenge are isolated and no one outside the challenge hits them or gets hit by them.
(a dragon gets d6 extra close-combat attacks that strike last, and ALL attacks MUST be targeted at either the enemy hero or his mount if it's a challenge.)

Can you use your breath weapon in close combat?

And if so, since it's one-use-only, why not save it for the next round (after eating the champion in the first) when it can hit more models?

RiTides wrote:Can you use your breath weapon in close combat?

And if so, since it's one-use-only, why not save it for the next round (after eating the champion in the first) when it can hit more models?

Breath weapons in close combat are auto-hitting close combat attacks, no shooting or template is involved.

You certainly would be smart to save it for the 2nd round unless you're in a challenge against the enemy general.

Yeah you can use it in CC, but the idea was to get rid of the whole unit in one go instead of letting them tie you down...

Stupid challenges and being forced to accept them because of desire for glory... grumble grumble...

But wait, what about the book of secrets and the spell Spirit Leech... then I can fry the champion's spirit before combat begins...

This is getting incredibly complex. Time to make a little 'steps to assaulting a horde with your dragon mounted lord' outline