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The breath weapon would be used in the 2nd round if a challenge has been issued.

Dragons are still fun to use in 8th, they just have to be used differently.

Well, a naked Lord with book of secrets and dragon is 595 points so he isn't even usable in 2k games.

Then a lvl.1 wizard would get +1 to cast, enemy likely would get +4 to dispel your 1 spell, thus getting dragon stuck for a whole turn on a 14-point champion or something.

In large point games, dragon might pay off charging tied combats in the flank (unless enemy magics or shoots your dragon to death.)

The days of charging a dragon into a big RNF unit and winning are over, and its about time.

One turn the champ ties him up, the next 2 turns the unit is stubborn because its Xranks are greater than your 0 ranks.

i personally think they are a dyeing breed... i mean, just look at the variety of colors they possess.

Also, dragons were weakened, but the new magic phase is much more powerful.

Someone could easily spend 600-ish points on a high elf dude riding a dragon.

For that I can get Teclis, the +d3 power dice banner, and 5 extra Phoenix Guards to bodyguard him. (Naturally, I'd put him in a unit of say 20 PG which can now become 25 PG. No one buys a dragon and then has 0 special units to place characters in.)

I'd get 2d6 + 2d3 power dice per turn, d3 extra dispel dice, dispel scroll that half the time destroys one of your spells, IFs on any double, ignored miscast, etc.

Hell, on like Turn 1 Teclis sees a bit of you, throws an auto-hit Amber Spear (S10 D6 wounds) at your dragon Lord and your lord could be instantly dead at 24". Ignores cover.

On turn 2 or 3, you could get locked into combat against something and Teclis charges you, rolls 6 dice at Transformation of Kadon. 90.4% it's successful and impossible to dispel.

Suddenly you get attacked by a S8 T8 W8 A8 dragon with 2+ armor save, Terror, S5 breathe weapon for 2d6 extra attacks. Then it gets D6 auto-hitting S8 attacks (wounds your dragon on 2+.) Your dragon's ones need a 5+ or 6+ depending on strength.

If your dragon were to charge Teclis' squad, the champion challenges you and you kill 1 model, then it stubborn holds. On his turn, in the magic phase he turns into God-Dragon and then kills your dragon, general, or both.

That's combat and worst case scenario and Teclis still likely wins.

If the dragon doesn't charge Teclis, then the magic caster can just throw tons of debuffs on the enemy army and tons of buffs on his army and shoot things with magic blasts.

Also, something such as Teclis in a unit of PG is able to survive a whole lot more cannon balls than a Dragon can, yet can do the same amount of damage or swing combats the same.

Huge unit of spearmen fighting enemy, charge dragon in flank to break them?
You could just as easily (and probably more safely) just have a super wizard throw Okkam's Mindrazor to make your huge unit of spearmen all attack at S8 obliterate the enemy units with 2+ to kill.

A +4 to cast vs. a +0 to dispel will let him get pretty much everything off. Teclis not only does huge damage, but he also gets +5 dispel and +d3 dispel dice extra. He'll lockdown the enemy magic phase while dragon-army has to bend over and take it.

My favorite part of this game is not talking about Teclis...

As though I needed more reasons to hate Teclis. One of my favorite WHFB moments of all time was when my catapult scattered onto his forehead.

rdlb wrote:My favorite part of this game is not talking about Teclis...

Oh man, I don't often change my sig, but this might haveta do it...

Teclis is just the fantasy version of Eldrad.. Its no surprise that every elf army must include him.

Should just be a rule every HE army has to take him, just like the storm banner for skaven

However, on topic.. Dragons really serve no purpose. What do they do? 6 S6 attacks? So you do 3-4 wounds a turn for 400 points..really? Yet you cant break ranks, cant beat steadfast and die to every warmachine (more so than before even!). OUt of all the changes I dont think there was a single DECENT change to large monsters.. only making them weaker every single edition..(Okay I lie, you get +1 to your armor save now which doesnt matter when you get punched in the face with a cannon ball)

For the cost of that silly lord on a star dragon you can get 6 heroes with great weapons .. Thats 18 S6 ASF attacks. Much better than 6 NON ASF (Note that is important) S7 attacks.

Kirasu wrote:However, on topic.. Dragons really serve no purpose. What do they do? 6 S6 attacks? So you do 3-4 wounds a turn for 400 points..really? Yet you cant break ranks, cant beat steadfast and die to every warmachine (more so than before even!). OUt of all the changes I dont think there was a single DECENT change to large monsters.. only making them weaker every single edition.

Thunderstomp increased their damage potential quite a lot.

And yeah, you're unlikely to break the enemy if you just charge in there with just a dragon... but that's true of every single expensive model with a high damage output. In 8th ed you need big blocks of your own troops to hold the enemy and deny them their steadfast, while single models with high damage output hit the flanks and score the casualties you need.

Kirasu wrote:. Dragons really serve no purpose.

Dragons are their own purpose....

Thunderstomp increased their damage potential quite a lot.

Unless you fight against anything non-infantry. Which is a lot of enemies. Again, challenging a dragon rider totally negates thunderstomp as well as a way to get extra wounds (Assuming youre using a chump champion).. Even worse if its a HE rider then the ASF lord will do a few wounds and not allow for max overkill

The dragon and rider both get to fight in a challenge, and thunderstomp at Strength 6 or 7 or whatever your particular dragon happens to be is going to kill almost anything!

Interestingly, I guess you're implying stomp/thunderstomp doesn't work against non-infantry (like cavalry?). Ah, need to get these rules down pat...

Also, can a champion challenge your dragon / character even if you're charging into the flank / rear?

Kirasu wrote:Unless you fight against anything non-infantry. Which is a lot of enemies.

You're a flying creature. In a new metagame that strongly encourages large blocks of infantry. It really shouldn't be that hard to get your dragon into combat with an infantry block.

Again, challenging a dragon rider totally negates thunderstomp as well as a way to get extra wounds (Assuming youre using a chump champion).. Even worse if its a HE rider then the ASF lord will do a few wounds and not allow for max overkill

That's assuming the dragon and rider are charging in by themselves, with no support. Which, again, is a poor strategy in 8th. If you've moved your infantry into contact with his, so you have a unit with equal or greater ranks, then the dragon piles into the side of the enemy. He doesn't get steadfast and you also have a unit champion in your anvil unit to take the challenge.

Glimpse The Void wrote:

Dragons are their own purpose....

This IS now my new sig!!

One great use for a lord on a dragon that I've found is to run him into a Death Star unit and kill the general, BsB, and whatever else is in there in challenges. He usually does enough wounds to win the combat, and though they don't usually break, he's just a character murdering machine and it ties up the uber-unit for the whole game, until your other units have mopped up everything else. Then they get to deal with a bunch of angry White Lions and Swordmasters on their flanks and a Star Dragon with an unkillable Lord on top to their front.

So I've been getting my Chaos Lord on Dragon ready and I was reading on page 105 that both the rider and the mount are hit if a spell uses a template. This means that the Purple Sun doesn't use the rider's Initiative? Or do both the Dragon and the Lord test on the Initiative of the Lord?

Will Necrotic Phylactery protect both against death magic since it says "the model" in the magic item description?

Just want to be sure of the rules before I bust him out and talk up a bunch of smack (which I will do regardless of... well anything)

If it says model it protects the whole model dragon and all, if it says character, like armour of destiny for example, it would only work for the character.

Kirasu wrote:
However, on topic.. Dragons really serve no purpose. What do they do? 6 S6 attacks? So you do 3-4 wounds a turn for 400 points..really?

The Dragon flies, causes terror, has thunderstomp, breath weapons, and is only 360 points in WoC codex...
Plus you get to say Dragon a lot during the game, that alone is worth 360 or 400 points...