Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Any advice on how to kill dwarfs using high elves. I want to use quite alot of magic but i'm open to suggestions.

Teclis, dwarves worst nightmare, they excel in shutting down the magic phase, except when Teclis hits the table.

Some helpful points of info for better advice:

What kind of list is the Dwarf player using?

What kind of list are you thinking of?

You'll want to take the Ironcurse Icon, if only 'cause it's only 5 points, and you want as much ward saves as possible.

"Teams" of eagles make decent warmachine killers.

I'm also having problem against warmachines and Dwarves.

I know eagles are a viable option, but do any of you have any experience using Reavers as anti-warmachine units? Am I correct to assume that they are likely able to assault first turn via vanguard move?

Only if High Elves don't get the first turn and only if he's leaving his war machines forward and exposed. Reavers would die pretty quick if exposed to fire, so they may not be your best option.

For magic routes:

War machines fail all characteristic tests (edit: except Toughness and Leadership tests), so dwellers, purple sun and pit of shades will all auto-kill war machines. I think Light magic's Net should be effective too, as it will prevent a machine from firing.

Finally, the amped up long range fireball seems like it has a decent chance of toasting war machines. 3D6 chances at 6s isn't too shabby.

RZ

War machines fail all characteristic tests, so dwellers, purple sun and pit of shades will all auto-kill war machines. I think Light magic's Net should be effective too, as it will prevent a machine from firing.

Finally, the amped up long range fireball seems like it has a decent chance of toasting war machines. 3D6 chances at 6s isn't too shabby.

Great advice, I did not know they failed all Characteristic test..

I'm sorry, I should note that they fail all characteristic tests except Toughness tests and Leadership tests. Got typing a bit too fast... I'll edit my entry.

Thanks for the advice I wanted to use Lore of Life anyway for the resurection spell so dwellers bellow seems perfect. If you check my profile you can see the list I intend to use in my 'High Elf 2000pts Army List. Advice Please!' Topic.

Any more tips would be welcomed.

Run a ton of great close combat units (you have the hittiest units in the game with the new ASF rules) and Teclis with Pha's Protection (i think he can take the lore of light right?)

As far as I know my freind will be running quite a lot of warriors, possibly 3x 30 warriors, 2 small units of handgunners and a few cannons. Not certain yet but possible.

zeekill wrote:Run a ton of great close combat units (you have the hittiest units in the game with the new ASF rules) and Teclis with Pha's Protection (i think he can take the lore of light right?)

As much as I love to see combat-y High Elf armies, I just don't think they're going to do the damage that they need to against Dwarfs. A unit of 14 Swordmasters two ranks of 7 will do about 18 hits, 12 wounds, and depending on whether they Dwarfs have great weapons or not, between 6 and 12 of those wounds will get through. Not shabby at all, until you consider that those Dwarfs strike back and kill maybe 7-15 of your Swordmasters. Even if you win, they're Steadfast on a 9 or 10, and they grind you down next turn. Dwarf blocks are hard to beat, especially in Horde. I've had too many "WTF" moments when my pretty blocks of Swordmasters and White Lions got bent over by them. In this instance, I support shooting/magic-ing them to death.

eledamris wrote:As much as I love to see combat-y High Elf armies, I just don't think they're going to do the damage that they need to against Dwarfs. A unit of 14 Swordmasters two ranks of 7 will do about 18 hits, 12 wounds, and depending on whether they Dwarfs have great weapons or not, between 6 and 12 of those wounds will get through. Not shabby at all, until you consider that those Dwarfs strike back and kill maybe 7-15 of your Swordmasters. Even if you win, they're Steadfast on a 9 or 10, and they grind you down next turn. Dwarf blocks are hard to beat, especially in Horde. I've had too many "WTF" moments when my pretty blocks of Swordmasters and White Lions got bent over by them. In this instance, I support shooting/magic-ing them to death.

The only way those dwarves could be expecting to save 6 of those 12 wounds is if they started with a 2+ save. You should be expecting about 10 kills a turn, which should produce a win against a dwarf unit of equivalent points. Tough blocks of troops are what swordmasters do best.

magic is a good way to do proper damage.
make sure you have flanking unit to support your swordmasters when dealing with large blocks
And breathweapons, with the new template rules and the HE lack of template artillery, monsters are a good option.
if he is using only 2 cannons, i wouldn't worry to much about them. some eagles will tie them up for a few turns. leaving you to wittle down his troops.
do be carefull of engineers/masterengineers with pistols/brace. they can stop/kill your eagles quickly if your unlucky

I am thinking about possibly trying to include 40 or 50 phoenix guard in my list as a hoard. Any thoughts?

Seems expensive, both to buy and to play.
I haven't seen any hoard units of elite troops do what they need to do just yet, especially for what they cost in points. But it would be interrested to see it on the table. it will certainly attract a lot of attention shooting/magic wise.

How about blocks of 32 spearmen?

zeekill wrote: Teclis with Pha's Protection (i think he can take the lore of light right?)

He can take Light, but sadly Pha's Protection dosen't work on cannons.
See here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311294.page

How about hiding on the other side of the board, using Eagles to kill the warmachines and blasting them apart with Teclis and Lore of Death/Shadow while they try to walk across the board to reach me.

RaptorsTallon wrote:How about hiding on the other side of the board, using Eagles to kill the warmachines and blasting them apart with Teclis and Lore of Death/Shadow while they try to walk across the board to reach me.

As long as he dosen't have an anvil to both scew with your magic and get extra speed.

eledamris wrote:

zeekill wrote:Run a ton of great close combat units (you have the hittiest units in the game with the new ASF rules) and Teclis with Pha's Protection (i think he can take the lore of light right?)

As much as I love to see combat-y High Elf armies, I just don't think they're going to do the damage that they need to against Dwarfs. A unit of 14 Swordmasters two ranks of 7 will do about 18 hits, 12 wounds, and depending on whether they Dwarfs have great weapons or not, between 6 and 12 of those wounds will get through. Not shabby at all, until you consider that those Dwarfs strike back and kill maybe 7-15 of your Swordmasters. Even if you win, they're Steadfast on a 9 or 10, and they grind you down next turn. Dwarf blocks are hard to beat, especially in Horde. I've had too many "WTF" moments when my pretty blocks of Swordmasters and White Lions got bent over by them. In this instance, I support shooting/magic-ing them to death.

Interesting analysis, swordmasters will do between 7-12 (7 on 3+/6++ and 12 on 5+) on average and the attacks back assuming they are 5 wide is about 4.1666 kills on average.

If the dwarves are 7 wide then its 5.8 kills. Note that the total amount of kills would be 14, there are only that many attacks so I am not sure how to get 15 kills, unless there is a champ, which might die to the initial volley of Swordmaster attacks. Also if the Dwarves are 7 wide then the Swordmasters should try to reform (if able) to be 9 wide.

So in general you will kill 12 and they will kill 5 or you should aim to kill 14 to their 6. 2nd round you kill 9 and it depends on how many they have left, either you have killed 21 or the remaining attack back. If there were 30 then 4 die. Remaining 4 Swordmasters kill 4.7, last 4 dwarves kill 2. Then they die. Swordmasters win every round and come out with 2! guys remaining, enough to charge a warmachine I guess .

Against a horde of 30, then go 12 wide kill 16 on average, they kill about 6.25 back. Means they don't have steadfast and you win by a lot. If they are Hammerers then kill SM kill 9 again, loose 2. Next round kill the rest.

If there are 40 of them then you need more than 14 Swordmasters, but they also cost a lot more. Knock them down a rank and then your like above.

tiekwando wrote:

eledamris wrote:

zeekill wrote:Run a ton of great close combat units (you have the hittiest units in the game with the new ASF rules) and Teclis with Pha's Protection (i think he can take the lore of light right?)

As much as I love to see combat-y High Elf armies, I just don't think they're going to do the damage that they need to against Dwarfs. A unit of 14 Swordmasters two ranks of 7 will do about 18 hits, 12 wounds, and depending on whether they Dwarfs have great weapons or not, between 6 and 12 of those wounds will get through. Not shabby at all, until you consider that those Dwarfs strike back and kill maybe 7-15 of your Swordmasters. Even if you win, they're Steadfast on a 9 or 10, and they grind you down next turn. Dwarf blocks are hard to beat, especially in Horde. I've had too many "WTF" moments when my pretty blocks of Swordmasters and White Lions got bent over by them. In this instance, I support shooting/magic-ing them to death.

Interesting analysis, swordmasters will do between 7-12 (7 on 3+/6++ and 12 on 5+) on average and the attacks back assuming they are 5 wide is about 4.1666 kills on average.

If the dwarves are 7 wide then its 5.8 kills. Note that the total amount of kills would be 14, there are only that many attacks so I am not sure how to get 15 kills, unless there is a champ, which might die to the initial volley of Swordmaster attacks. Also if the Dwarves are 7 wide then the Swordmasters should try to reform (if able) to be 9 wide.

So in general you will kill 12 and they will kill 5 or you should aim to kill 14 to their 6. 2nd round you kill 9 and it depends on how many they have left, either you have killed 21 or the remaining attack back. If there were 30 then 4 die. Remaining 4 Swordmasters kill 4.7, last 4 dwarves kill 2. Then they die. Swordmasters win every round and come out with 2! guys remaining, enough to charge a warmachine I guess .

Against a horde of 30, then go 12 wide kill 16 on average, they kill about 6.25 back. Means they don't have steadfast and you win by a lot. If they are Hammerers then kill SM kill 9 again, loose 2. Next round kill the rest.

If there are 40 of them then you need more than 14 Swordmasters, but they also cost a lot more. Knock them down a rank and then your like above.

Thanks for the analysis Tiekwando.

Anymore tactics or suggestions will be welcomed.

If a unit of swordmasters get to see combat with 2 ranks then the dwarf player needs to buy new dice, every game i watch swordmasters are dead 1st turn in there deployment zone from gunline,swordmasters are always 1st priority to die.

Also giant eagles are not garunteed to even beat dwarfs crewmen it only has 2 attacks and there will be 4 dwarfs including the engineer fighting back.

He is planning to use 5 cannon what should I use.

Erm, five war machines, or five cannons? How many points are you guys playing?

3 cannon and 2 grudge throwers.

He says he can fit it in 1000pts but we will probably play 2000pts.

Liquidice281 wrote:I'm also having problem against warmachines and Dwarves.

I know eagles are a viable option, but do any of you have any experience using Reavers as anti-warmachine units? Am I correct to assume that they are likely able to assault first turn via vanguard move?

Sorry mate but as far as im aware (after reading the rule book from start to finish a few times) Units that use vanguard cannot charge on the first turn.

They can if their army goes second.

You might want to consider Tyrion as a general. I use him against dwarves and he's excellent for getting across the board and destroying war machine crews.

Actually, he seems like he'd have trouble against Dwarves. He's Monstrous cav, so he can't get a look out sir, from anything else in the Dwarf army, which means he's running the risk of getting cannon/stone thrower sniped...