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Yet all the Blood Angel players are saying that they are burning their codex and using this one instead.

Trump: "Yeah, that’s her. With the fiat currency. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful countries — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the electoral college. You can do anything." 
   
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All things considered, and realizing that we're still just looking at rumors. I'd rather go with meltas in my assault squads that score, vanguard not competing with sternguard for slots, and divination on my librarians. Oh, and sang priests to boot.

If the trend is cheaper models with expensive weapon upgrades, not sure how many more models you're going to get on the table unless they remain stripped down. A DA tac squad with melta/lascannon in a pod is only 5 points cheaper than the same out of the BA dex.

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And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)

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 d-usa wrote:
Yet all the Blood Angel players are saying that they are burning their codex and using this one instead.


Everyone cries the same tears when new books come out.
   
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 StarTrotter wrote:
And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)

Do it! All the cool kids are, as are the long time CSM players that are fed up with two crap codices in a row. I am jumping ship to codex SM and will just save my Daemonic Chaos stuff for Apoc games.



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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Yet all the Blood Angel players are saying that they are burning their codex and using this one instead.


Everyone cries the same tears when new books come out.


At least when the next codex comes out they'll stop complaining about this one.

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 StarTrotter wrote:
And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
But just think of all the great things codex chaos gives us!

heldrakes!

dinobots!


...heldrakes!

But yeah real talk as a long time ex IW player it's a real bummer to see that loyalist SM will remain miles ahead in the shooting department for another half decade.

I mean honestly, how hard would loyalist players (actually probably everyone) laugh if the CSM book came out with a rumored option that said troop CSM reroll misses for the cost of *fething nothing*? Oh right but CSM got hatred vs SM in close combat so that's just as good right

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/15 06:29:36


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Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.

Sig'd.


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Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
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 dracpanzer wrote:
Am I missing something? Seems like there isn't anything in this Dex that would make me want to play my Raven Guard with it over the BA Dex.

Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
 dracpanzer wrote:
All things considered, and realizing that we're still just looking at rumors. I'd rather go with meltas in my assault squads that score, vanguard not competing with sternguard for slots, and divination on my librarians. Oh, and sang priests to boot.
If the trend is cheaper models with expensive weapon upgrades, not sure how many more models you're going to get on the table unless they remain stripped down. A DA tac squad with melta/lascannon in a pod is only 5 points cheaper than the same out of the BA dex.

-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.
   
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Kangodo wrote:
 dracpanzer wrote:
Am I missing something? Seems like there isn't anything in this Dex that would make me want to play my Raven Guard with it over the BA Dex.

Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
 dracpanzer wrote:
All things considered, and realizing that we're still just looking at rumors. I'd rather go with meltas in my assault squads that score, vanguard not competing with sternguard for slots, and divination on my librarians. Oh, and sang priests to boot.
If the trend is cheaper models with expensive weapon upgrades, not sure how many more models you're going to get on the table unless they remain stripped down. A DA tac squad with melta/lascannon in a pod is only 5 points cheaper than the same out of the BA dex.

-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.


Right now ASM can not score. Maybe when a supplement drops, but right now Raven Guard get stealth and the ability to use jump packs to move and charge that's it.

Maybe I'm forgetting about a FW HQ choice out there somewhere, but in the codex itself you can't take scoring Jump Infantry of any kind.

If you're going to cry at least make sure you get the rumors right.

EDIT: Oh, and Codex: Space Marines doesn't look like it's getting Divination (outside of Tigirus who can't be run in a Raven Guard army unless he's an attachement). Powers have been said to be unchanged from their selections in the past.

Just thought I'd poke that hole in your claims too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 07:15:08


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I am sure Raven Guard players can come up with a nice list that represents their chapter using BA allies.
   
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At £35 a pop, I will be doing the opposite, going on eBay and running my marines as ba instead. Codex regression ftw!
   
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Any aggrieved Raven Guard players: I will gladly put a $20 bill in my copy of C:BA and mail it to you in exchange for a copy of the upcoming C:SM. It is only slightly used. Once the new book comes out, I can't see why I'd need that floppy old thing anymore.
   
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 dracpanzer wrote:


Stealth as a detachment wide rule, okay, fits the fluff, could be useful. If Tau aren't just bypassing your cover saves, or Eldar psykers Divining you out of it.


as a tau player, let me ask.... Why be upset about loosing your cover save when most of the weapons that ignore cover in beardy ways aren't even ap3? The only way to get ignores cover in the tau dex that chews up power armor is with markerlights, and they are VERY easilly killed out. Sure, some ignore cover plasma is nice, but its not that long range, the units that carry them are easy to kill, and the units that let us ignore cover with ap3 and up weapons are made of paper and dreams

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
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Kangodo wrote:

-Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.


With increased weapon upgrades to tac squads just like the DA have, bare bones marines are cheaper, but when given the same kit, they're relatively the same cost. As far as special rules, steatlh and improved jump packs isn't IMO worth the loss of FnP with Sang Priests.

ASM don't get scoring with any HQ in CSM.

I'm not upset about losing the cover save, I'm just not putting much stock in it. The rumors still favor sternguard over vanguard, and though ASM are getting cheaper, they're still plain old ASM. So considering the jump pack specialization won't come into play if you don't use them. The stealth rule is all you get. If that can be negated by markerlights, then you get stomped by plasma toting crisis suits, wouldn't BA FnP be better?

Sternguard vs Vanguard competition - I'd agree with you, I'd only be playing the Sternguard as per the rumors. Which sadly negates the primary RG trait. I'm disappointed that the rumors aren't giving me any indication that I'll have any reason to play Vanguard with it. Perhaps they'll have cheap weapon upgrades, but I really don't think that'll be enough to make me take them over the Sternguard. The loss of Heroic Intervention hurts them quite a bit.

RG don't have access to Divination in the current CSM, nor in the psyker deck chart.

I'm sure the CSM will do just fine, this isn't a complaint that my codex sucks. I've been playing my RG as BA throughout 5th and so far the entirety of 6th. They do just fine. I'm just saying that looking at the rumors there doesn't seem to be much in it that would make me want to play my RG with it rather than the BA dex. At least with the BA dex I can play a Steel Rain list built on Sternguard with a bit of Vanguard in support. Unless there is something very cool in Shrikes comments listed as ???? in the rumor link.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 07:35:45


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Kangodo wrote:
Korvydae, Google that name.
He's an hq and makes them scoring.
Many (most?) people in casual games or tournament settings that I know of don't play with FW, so that's not quite good enough.

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 dracpanzer wrote:
Kangodo wrote:

-Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.


With increased weapon upgrades to tac squads just like the DA have, bare bones marines are cheaper, but when given the same kit, they're relatively the same cost. As far as special rules, steatlh and improved jump packs isn't IMO worth the loss of FnP with Sang Priests.

ASM don't get scoring with any HQ in CSM.

Sternguard vs Vanguard competition - I'd agree with you, I'd only be playing the Sternguard as per the rumors. Which sadly negates the primary RG trait. I'm disappointed that the rumors aren't giving me any indication that I'll have any reason to play Vanguard with it. Perhaps they'll have cheap weapon upgrades, but I really don't think that'll be enough to make me take them over the Sternguard. The loss of Heroic Intervention hurts them quite a bit.

RG don't have access to Divination in the current CSM, nor in the psyker deck chart.

I'm sure the CSM will do just fine, this isn't a complaint that my codex sucks. I'm just saying that looking at the rumors there doesn't seem to be much in it that would make me want to play my RG with it rather than the BA dex. At least with the BA dex I can play a Steel Rain list built on Sternguard with a bit of Vanguard in support. Unless there is something very cool in Shrikes comments listed as ???? in the rumor link.


Main Ravenguard trait? Have you even read the fluff? They're a codex affiliated chapter, their main battle companies are still 6 TAC, 2 ASM, 2 DEVS, yeah they are more stealthy but that doesn't make them jump pack crazy.

Don't complain that you can't play your army in what you consider the most powerful build and then try to justify it by being 'against the chapters main traits' as you are playing them wrong if you try and spam jump packs. Very wrong.
   
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 ph34r wrote:
Kangodo wrote:
Korvydae, Google that name.
He's an hq and makes them scoring.
Many (most?) people in casual games or tournament settings that I know of don't play with FW, so that's not quite good enough.

That's not my problem.
If they houserule that FW is banned, you could try to houserule that asm are troops?
   
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Main Ravenguard trait? Have you even read the fluff? They're a codex affiliated chapter, their main battle companies are still 6 TAC, 2 ASM, 2 DEVS, yeah they are more stealthy but that doesn't make them jump pack crazy.

Don't complain that you can't play your army in what you consider the most powerful build and then try to justify it by being 'against the chapters main traits' as you are playing them wrong if you try and spam jump packs. Very wrong.


The Raven Guard are getting stealth and some form of jump pack specialization as their Codex Traits correct? Thats what I was commenting on. Jump pack specialization is one of their traits "rumored in the codex coming out next month" but I'm not seeing any reason to bring any jump pack troops. Vanguard on the cheap will still be underwhelming, add in that they now compete with Sternguard for a slot and lost Heroic Intervention.

I'm not complaining that the RG aren't getting "the most powerful build" (all jump packs, most powerful, really?) I'm just saying that the codex from a RG point of view is underwhelming and I'm more likely to continue to play them with my BA dex. In that context, I'm disappointed with the rumors I've seen so far. Though like I've said before, I understand they're rumors, yada yada yada. Just doesn't look promising from a RG point of view. BA may like it flipped, but IMO, BA can take units with the new CSM dex I'd never play with my RG. Which BTW, I run with all drop pods, I don't spam ASM, I run them on foot. Was hoping for a reason to bring some packers into the list again.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/15 07:52:20


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Kangodo wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
Kangodo wrote:
Korvydae, Google that name.
He's an hq and makes them scoring.
Many (most?) people in casual games or tournament settings that I know of don't play with FW, so that's not quite good enough.

That's not my problem.
If they houserule that FW is banned, you could try to houserule that asm are troops?


Congrats, he's not a codex HQ, as mentioned, and we don't know if he'll change dut to FW errata. Futhermore he's a FW option meaning your average player needs to know about him, have the appropiate rules for him AND be in an area that allows FW.

So no, he doesn't make your statement automatically correct for all players, just some.

And ASM can't take Melta in C:SM so they still need help from other non-jump units crack tanks open so they can get to the gooey insides.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 07:50:11


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Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.

They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.

They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.

Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.

Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".

The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them black armored Blood Angels though.

Edit: saw your post above and will try to reply to some of your concerns in a minute.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 07:53:19


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 d-usa wrote:
Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.

They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.

They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.

Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.

Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".

The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them blackarmored Blood Angels though.


Exalted for good points.

Also Scouts have stealth for free, that's pretty cool.

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 dracpanzer wrote:

The Raven Guard are getting stealth and some form of jump pack specialization as their Codex Traits correct? Thats what I was commenting on. Jump pack specialization is one of their traits "rumored in the codex coming out next month" but I'm not seeing any reason to bring any jump pack troops. Vanguard on the cheap will still be underwhelming, add in that they now compete with Sternguard for a slot and lost Heroic Intervention.


I don't think they are a jump pack army focused, or that the CT is trying to make them one. All Chapter Traits seem to boost one aspect of each Chapter, not every unit.

I think once we see the exact funcion of the Jump Pack rules for RG we will know a bit more. How many Elite slots are you usually using?

I think just as some of the other traits are similar (making tactical marines better, or devastators better), so our chapter trait makes a unit (or two) of jump pack troops better. It doesn't mean that we should take all jump pack marines though.

I'm not complaining that the RG aren't getting "the most powerful build" (all jump packs, most powerful, really?) I'm just saying that the codex from a RG point of view is underwhelming and I'm more likely to continue to play them with my BA dex. In that context, I'm disappointed with the rumors I've seen so far. Though like I've said before, I understand they're rumors, yada yada yada. Just doesn't look promising from a RG point of view. BA may like it flipped, but IMO, BA can take units with the new CSM dex I'd never play with my RG. Which BTW, I run with all drop pods, I don't spam ASM, I run them on foot. Was hoping for a reason to bring some packers into the list again.


I think the codex is pretty good. It makes scouts more viable (which are an important aspect of RG fluff). They are more survivable with an improved armor safe, they have a dedicated transport option now (which also helps with calling in your deep striking pods or Assault Marines) which also frees up a Fast Attack spot if you have been using it.

And part of it might just be a difference in fluff perspective. I've never thought of Raven Guard as a Steel Rain or Jump Pack heavy force, it just doesn't seem to meet that hit-and-run warfare style of the fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 08:00:08


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 d-usa wrote:
Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.

They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.

They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.

Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.

Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".

The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them black armored Blood Angels though.

Edit: saw your post above and will try to reply to some of your concerns in a minute.


Like I said in my original post, my RG are Scouts/Pods/Packs. I'm fully aware of their fluff, 6/2/2 and all that. Vanguard have always been a good option for a Shrike Wing, though he could never join it for Heroic Intervention. They may be cheaper now, but with the loss of HI, I don't see them lasting all that long. Tooled up they'll be a point sink that can infiltrate, and are a great candidate for First Blood, maybe Slay the Warlord as well? I'm hoping that Shrike has more to him than allowing the unit he joins to infiltrate. There might be a saving grace in the ???? on the rumor page. I'm getting worried though.

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As a BA player, I am excited for this release for three reasons.

1: My allied detachment is getting new models and new rules. I take a Vanilla Chapter master, so the buff to that model is a plus for me.

2: New models for kitbashing look awesome. Ebay bits for the win.

3: It gives me a good feeling about the content of my next codex. Honestly, I've adapted to 6th at this point , so there is no rush for a new BA codex. I'm sure not everyone would agree on that point though.


-I used to play BT. Honestly, I am OK with them being rolled into the new Vanilla codex. An update now is better than waiting years and getting a WD rewrite *cough Sisters Cough*.



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And part of it might just be a difference in fluff perspective. I've never thought of Raven Guard as a Steel Rain or Jump Pack heavy force, it just doesn't seem to meet that hit-and-run warfare style of the fluff.


My beef isn't with the CT, I'm just disappointed that the jump pack units themselves are underwhelming (again). Which makes the CT basically, underwhelming. I was hoping that we'd be able to somehow take jump pack command squads, not because they're super powerful, just that they've been in the RG fluff for a long time. If the jump pack spec works like the rumor says (jump 12" in the movement phase AND get your hammer of wrath in the assault as I read it) do you really see that making jump infantry of any kind viable? It's still 6ed, I'll give it a run or ten, but I don't see it making any combination of jump infantry better than sternguard in a pod. That's disappointing.

My scouts just camp objectives, so the LSS doesn't do them much good. Thats my choice though, I like the change to the LSS, just probably won't use it regardless. Don't they already get stealth? Or is that with just cloaks, don't remember ATM.

As far as the notion that RG are a Steel Rain force by the fluff. RG are a combo of Scout, Pod and Jump Infantry. With the 5ed dex and arrival of sternguard, you'd have to include them as well. Sadly 6ed just isn't friendly to the lowly ASM, and I'm thinking Vanguard will be a lot like Warp Talons if their weapon upgrades cost as much as they do currently. And the last bit, about the command squads, was what started me down the road of playing my RG as BA in the first place. I was disappointed when the RG IA article was countermanded by the CSM.

From the Lexicanum: The Raven Guard are known for hitting weak points in enemy defences hard and they perform lightning strike upon locations of tactical importance to cripple their enemy. The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 08:40:29


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 RandyMcStab wrote:
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